A Question for Catholics

[scylla]

Sure; how about Acts 16;31"and they said,Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVE
Then there is John 20;31 , Acts 13;38, Romans 10;9, 1 Cor 1;21, Heb. 10;39, John 5;24 and John 6;40.

However I want you to understand that I am not debating scripture, I am just stating that fact that I was saved by the power of the Gospel, I was born again by the washing of the water of the Word (Eph 5;26) and the Spirit BEFORE is was baptized.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

I believe you, God does not confine Himself to specific acts at all times. This is why the thief on the cross was saved also. He accepted Gods free gift of Salvation and retained it until the end. Even retaining his faith by witnessing on the cross to the other thief as he suffered there alongside Jesus.

Jesus knew he would die shortly afterward after they broke the thiefs legs and would be with Him in Heaven.

Yet is God limited to a symbolic Baptism or does God have the power to touch us through Baptism and give us Salvation?
A symbol affirms truth. The real effect of Baptism is what makes it so necessary and life changing, which is why Jesus commanded us to do it.
So does God have the power to give us Salvation through Baptism? (He can certainly do it through martyrdom) Is it a free gift?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Della]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Della
God saved us all before we were baptized when Christ died upon the cross, but that doesn’t negate the need for baptism.

allischalmers:

Does that mean that God has saved everyone that has ever lived including those that have never believed.

Yes, but only in the sense that salvation is through Christ for anyone who accepts it. This acceptance need not be a declaration of faith, but may be given to them according to the graces God gave them and how they implemented that grace in their lives. Salvation is much more complex than a simple one time prayer or knowing how to answer those who believe that it is.

Quote:
Your desire to love and serve him was a form of baptism–a baptism of desire that might have served you in God’s eyes if you had not been able to be baptized with water, as the Bible instructs us quite clearly to be.

allischalmers:

Does that mean that I do not have to be baptized to be saved. If the Bible says that I must be baptized to be saved and I assume that this Gods instruction to us, has God changes the rules. But the Bible says the God is unchangiable.

Read what I wrote again carefully. I wrote that you had a form of baptism–a baptism of desire which is a true baptism for those who are awaiting baptism or do not have the opportunity to be baptized in water. Baptism is baptism is baptism be it by desire, water, or blood (as in the case of some of the martyrs). God commands baptism, but he has given the Church the authority to define what does and what doesn’t constitute a valid baptism.

Quote:
Actually, all our sins were washed away by the blood of Christ before we were born, but baptism brings the grace of Christ’s sacrifice to us personally, in our time and place.

allischalmers:

But I received the grace of Christ sacrifice when I was born again before I was baptized when the Spirit of God witnessed to my spirit that I was a child of God. (Romans 8;16)

Receiving grace does not negate baptism nor the need for it. As I said, before you had water baptism you had the desire for baptism so that if you had died you would have been free of the stain of original sin. But this did not negate water baptism nor your obligation to have it if it was possible for you to have it.

What we are really discussing here is God’s mercy and how far it extends, as well as what is our duty as Christians. God’s mercy is infinite, which the Church recognizes, which it reflects in its teachings. But, we are also obligated to do what we are able to do, which the Church also teaches. This is a “both/and” proposition not an “either/or” one, as you seem to think it is.

Quote:
What you experienced is the redemptive love of Christ in an awakening to faith that can happen to anyone anywhere, but baptism does what the Bible says it does. It regenerates us and removes sin.

allischalmers:

But I was regenerated and my sin were removed when I was born again before I was baptized.

When you had a desire for the baptism of Christ–which is what regeneration really is–to die and be raised to new life in Christ.

 

[mikev]

This old guy just seems to have simple faith, kind of like the faith of a child that Jesus talked about. The kingdom of heaven is reserved for people like this. Maybe we could learn a lesson from him.

 

[prodigal-sun]

However I want you to understand that I am not debating scripture, I am just stating that fact that I was saved by the power of the Gospel, I was born again by the washing of the water of the Word (Eph 5;26) and the Spirit BEFORE is was baptized.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Good for you there Allis, There are all kinds of kooks out there that believe all kinds of things. Heck… There is even a man in South America someplace that thinks he’s the reincarnated spirit of Jesus Christ come to set us all straight and that there is no such thing as Sin! None of this makes you or him right. Just because you believe something does not make it true. As everyone has mentioned here… Jesus is our judge not you! This of course brings us back to your original question (that has nothing to do with where this thread is going) is he going to heaven or hell? I’m curious to know what your judgement of the situation is? Will he go to hell?

Peace!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

My next door neighbor is a older man that is a widower and lives a quiet live be himself. He was raised Catholic and goes to mass every week. He believes that he is going to heaven because he was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church and goes to mass every week. However he knows nothing about what the Bible teaches. I have asked him what the Bible teaches about baptism or other doctrines of the of the Bible and he has no answers at all. In fact he does not even want to talk about Jesus Christ. So when he dies where will he go, heaven or hell?

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Not everyone is given the gift of understanding. Do you have to be a theologian or Bible scholar to be saved in your view? The simple can have faith too, even if they don’t understand the doctrines of God such that they can explain them to your satisfcation. A child-like faith is the model that Christ himself presents to his disciples. Surely he is not to be judged poorly for subordinating his intellect and will to those more gifted in understanding, those Divinely ordained to be the pastor of his soul.

The only reason he might go to hell is if he was finally impenitent in mortal sin. I believe we will be judged more by our likeness to Christ than by our grasp of theology about Him.

If he believes the Catholic Creed he prays and lives it in charity, then surely goodness and mercy will follow him all the days of his life, and he will live in the house of the Lord forever.

 

[onmywayagain]

My next door neighbor is a older man that is a widower and lives a quiet live be himself. He was raised Catholic and goes to mass every week. He believes that he is going to heaven because he was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church and goes to mass every week. However he knows nothing about what the Bible teaches. I have asked him what the Bible teaches about baptism or other doctrines of the of the Bible and he has no answers at all. In fact he does not even want to talk about Jesus Christ. So when he dies where will he go, heaven or hell?

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Why do you feel the need to question this man, who you say, is a widower and lives a quiet life? Does he have to know everything in the Bible to go to heaven? Sounds like to me that you think because he doesn’t read the bible or know anything in the bible he is not going to heaven. Why don’t you just let him live out the rest of his years on earth and when he dies let God decide.

Why are you challenging him? Do you have a plan to convert him?

 

[tequilamac]

My next door neighbor is a older man that is a widower and lives a quiet live be himself. He was raised Catholic and goes to mass every week. He believes that he is going to heaven because he was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church and goes to mass every week. However he knows nothing about what the Bible teaches. I have asked him what the Bible teaches about baptism or other doctrines of the of the Bible and he has no answers at all. In fact he does not even want to talk about Jesus Christ. So when he dies where will he go, heaven or hell?

forever Baptist
allischalmers

If he goes to Mass every week, than over several years time, he has heard the entire Bible. If he is elderly, he has heard and read the Bible several times in his lifetime. My guess is that he knows the Bible better than you and when you ask him about it, being older like me, he takes off. I do not think he does not want to talk about Jesus Christ. He simply does not want to talk to you. I am elderly and I clearly remember the Church teaching us to shut our door when non Catholics came knocking to discuss the Bible.

So the question is now what do you think? If he simply does not like you, will he go to heaven or will he go to hell?

 

[Victorious]

If he goes to Mass every week, than over several years time, he has heard the entire Bible. If he is elderly, he has heard and read the Bible several times in his lifetime. My guess is that he knows the Bible better than you and when you ask him about it, being older like me, he takes off. I do not think he does not want to talk about Jesus Christ. He simply does not want to talk to you. I am elderly and I clearly remember the Church teaching us to shut our door when non Catholics came knocking to discuss the Bible.

So the question is now what do you think? If he simply does not like you, will he go to heaven or will he go to hell?

:clapping::clapping: :clapping:

 

[valient_Lucy]

My next door neighbor is a older man that is a widower and lives a quiet live be himself. He was raised Catholic and goes to mass every week. He believes that he is going to heaven because he was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church and goes to mass every week. However he knows nothing about what the Bible teaches. I have asked him what the Bible teaches about baptism or other doctrines of the of the Bible and he has no answers at all. In fact he does not even want to talk about Jesus Christ. So when he dies where will he go, heaven or hell?

forever Baptist
allischalmers

Ulitmatly, that’s God’s decision, not ours, so it’s not a good idea to speculate.

 

[Damo73]

James is saying that when we have faith works will follow,you can not say you are a runner and not ever run, it is the same with faith if you do not produce fruit you do not have faith.

The Bible talks about salvation through faith more than just in a negative context, which i do not believe it does anyway.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.

Rom 5:1 Now that we have been put right with God through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8 For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it.

Gal 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

 

[Damo73]

“and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household,” (Acts 16:30-33, NASB).

 If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."  But, he did not,consider Acts 10:44-46.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). 

 These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10:44-46 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This isn't an exception. It is a reality. This proves that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

What is Romans 6:3-5 saying?

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

 The phrase "baptized into" occurs five times in the NT in four verses as found in the KJV and the NASB..

   1.

      Rom. 6:3, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
   2.

      1 Cor. 10:2, "and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."
   3.

      1 Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
   4.

      Gal. 3:27, "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

To be baptized “into Christ,” “into His death,” “into Moses,” and “into one body” is to be publicly identified with the thing you are being baptized into. The focus is not the baptism itself, but on the thing the baptism represents. In the case of Rom. 6:3-5, being baptized into Christ is a public identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection which is said to be the gospel that saves in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Baptism, then is a public statement proclaiming that the person is trusting in the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Damo73]

I posted this in the apologetics it is probably a better place to discuss it.

 

[Sixtus]

I was very keen on evangelising when I was a young man.

A much older person told me you should be able to tell a Christian not by what we say but by what we do

Very true

 

[Victorious]

If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, “Believe and be baptized and you will be saved.” But, he did not…

If baptism were not part of salvation, then Jesus should not have said (Matthew 28:19):

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…

…unless you take the position that Jesus gave idle commands, which He would have been doing by commanding us to perform a purely symbolic act.

In fact, the Bible clearly says that baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21-22):

Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah’s flood], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience; through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

That’s from the Revised Standard Version; but just in case you don’t trust a translation of the Bible that the Catholic Church has approved, here’s the same out of King James:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[starling]

Many people today, especially Bible-belt former Protestants, think a traditional Catholic is one who wants a return to the Tridentine Mass. But this man, the subject of the original post, is what a traditional Catholic has been for most of the past 2000 years until recently. Catholics did not read the Bible or study the Bible on their own. This was not a deficiency. It was how it was.

In Roman Catholicism, the Bible was a source for readings during Mass and inspiration for homilies. It was originally intended as a guide, to be read only by educated clergy and theologians who had access to it, and was never intended to be taken literally (or else a lot of things in there sound pretty crazy). There was never any requirement nor even encouragement for lay Catholics to memorize the Bible, or even to interpret it in any way. There was no requirement for anyone to be an expert about doctrine or even Cathechism. That man is more a Catholic than most Catholic Answers types. Bible-everything is a Protestant thing, not a Catholic one, at least until John Paul II came along. A traditional Catholic had no need for theology. You had churches to go to, Mass to attend, Communion to receive, Confession, and icons to tie everything together along with the other Sacraments. You sat there and you listened, and you loved Jesus and Mary… and you tried to follow the example of Christ in your daily life and relations with others, rather than worry daily about your own personal salvation. You didn’t scan the internet daily for the latest pronouncements from the Vatican to find out what you should be thinking that day. The Church was a framework in support of your Faith, rather than the subject of it. The Bible was secondary. Few Catholics even had one in their homes. Some of you would have this man become a Protestant who just happens to use Catholic terms and icons. Leave him alone. His Faith is a true Faith of love, rather than a faith based on fear.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With respect, starling, your position that Catholics ‘didn’t read the Bible’ until recently is not true for most Catholics. I come from a German Catholic tradition. My grandmother, born in 1890, read her Bible every day of her life, and so did her children, and so do we. The children that I went to school with in the 1960s had parents and grandparents who came from Italy, Ireland, Poland, Spain, Mexico etc… . .likewise with big FAMILY Bibles (many of them with pictures of Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII, John XXIII); we kids had smaller Bibles, or Bible stories. While we didn’t have ‘chapter and verse’ contests like the Protestant children, we knew the Bible, Old Testament and New.

And a lot of us (or our brothers and sisters) managed to handle the LATIN missals with no difficulty.

Some people think that, because in the U.S. Catholics were often immigrants, first or second generation Americans, some of whom may have struggled with the English language, that they were mostly illiterate, and therefore didn’t ‘bother’ with the Bible; or that because the Bible isn’t found in a church pew, that nobody outside ‘church’ ever bothered with it. And that just isn’t true.

Historically, the ONLY TIME that Catholics were encouraged NOT to read the scriptures was when there were periods where WRONG TRANSLATIONS (such as from the Albigensians) were widely bruited about, and people might have read those IN ERROR, thinking that those wrong translations were the REAL Bible.

It strikes me that I have often heard, third hand, from somebody who either “knows” someone, or was himself ‘in youth’ told, by FATHER SO-AND-SO, or SISTER SO-AND-SO, these so-called “facts” that Catholics ‘didn’t use to read the bible because they weren’t permitted to, or couldn’t understand’. But I myself, living in an area in which these events supposedly were COMMON, at a time when I would have been exposed to them. . .never experienced anything of the kind–in fact, quite the contrary.

So, starling, I’d like to see some documentation that “few Catholics had a in their homes” etc. It certainly doesn’t jibe with my teachings (Sisters of Mercy), or my experiences.

 

[tequilamac]

Many people today, especially Bible-belt former Protestants, think a traditional Catholic is one who wants a return to the Tridentine Mass. But this man, the subject of the original post, is what a traditional Catholic has been for most of the past 2000 years until recently. Catholics did not read the Bible or study the Bible on their own. This was not a deficiency. It was how it was.

In Roman Catholicism, the Bible was a source for readings during Mass and inspiration for homilies. It was originally intended as a guide, to be read only by educated clergy and theologians who had access to it, and was never intended to be taken literally (or else a lot of things in there sound pretty crazy). There was never any requirement nor even encouragement for lay Catholics to memorize the Bible, or even to interpret it in any way. There was no requirement for anyone to be an expert about doctrine or even Cathechism. That man is more a Catholic than most Catholic Answers types. Bible-everything is a Protestant thing, not a Catholic one, at least until John Paul II came along. A traditional Catholic had no need for theology. You had churches to go to, Mass to attend, Communion to receive, Confession, and icons to tie everything together along with the other Sacraments. You sat there and you listened, and you loved Jesus and Mary… and you tried to follow the example of Christ in your daily life and relations with others, rather than worry daily about your own personal salvation. You didn’t scan the internet daily for the latest pronouncements from the Vatican to find out what you should be thinking that day. The Church was a framework in support of your Faith, rather than the subject of it. The Bible was secondary. Few Catholics even had one in their homes. Some of you would have this man become a Protestant who just happens to use Catholic terms and icons. Leave him alone. His Faith is a true Faith of love, rather than a faith based on fear.

Um. You need to narrow your general time frame down a bit. You are way off base. What period of time are you speaking of? the Middle Ages, or the early Christian period, the Renaissance, what? I hope not the late 1800’s and the twentieth century for then your statement would be patently false. Also your statement that Catholics do not take the Bible literally. Another generalized statement resulting leading to heresy actually. I think yu need to be more specific for the fact is Catholics, more than any other group take the New Testament literally. Most especially the Last Supper. Therefore to claim Catholics do not take the Bible literally is well as I said before-heresy.

 

[Victorious]

Oh, and one more thing:

In the case of Rom. 6:3-5, being baptized into Christ is a public identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection which is said to be the gospel that saves in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Baptism, then is a public statement proclaiming that the person is trusting in the sacrifice of Christ.

How big of a crowd was present when Philip baptized the eunuch in Acts, chapter 8? Since nobody else was around, was this baptism pointless?

 

[Sixtus]

Where he goes, is not for us to speculate.

All we need concentrate on is the great command by the Lord, in Mat ch7:1-2 reiterated by St Augustine: ‘love and do what you will’!