A Question for Catholics

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JFonseka said:
Your premise is flawed, you suppose just because it doesn’t make sense to you that it is not Biblical, which is not the way the Bible works, sorry. If that were the case then there would a 6 billion different interpretations of the bible with each one saying this bit doesn’t make sense and hence not biblical.

Don’t be so naive. God created reason and logic, for you to use that to say the Bible isn’t logical is a paradox and non-sensical too !:cool:
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This is not so, sorry. Paul preaches for us to read and study the word so that we will know the truth. If you take it upon faith of the magisterium to know what scripture means, then you are putting your faith into folks who differed in opinion from many councils and some of the early church fathers, no thank-you. I will read it for myself and use God given reason and discernment through the Holy Spirit. Again, I don’t mean to pick a fight here, but I am gravely concerned about these things and therefore am not certain of my immediate religious future.
 
BrewMax said:
This is not so, sorry. Paul preaches for us to read and study the word so that we will know the truth. If you take it upon faith of the magisterium to know what scripture means, then you are putting your faith into folks who differed in opinion from many councils and some of the early church fathers, no thank-you. I will read it for myself and use God given reason and discernment through the Holy Spirit. Again, I don’t mean to pick a fight here, but I am gravely concerned about these things and therefore am not certain of my immediate religious future.
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But as you said, there are those even within the Church who may have come to wrong conclusions- what makes you think you will do any better on your own?
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
But as you said, there are those even within the Church who may have come to wrong conclusions- what makes you think you will do any better on your own?
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Because I continue to search out the truth in God’s word. By reasoning and discernment, the Holy Spirit reveals it to us. Do all Protestants who claim to know how to interpret Scripture really do? No way. But through study and prayer, I believe that anyone who would seek the truth will find it as Jesus said in Scripture.
 
BrewMax said:
Because I continue to search out the truth in God’s word. By reasoning and discernment, the Holy Spirit reveals it to us. Do all Protestants who claim to know how to interpret Scripture really do? No way. But through study and prayer, I believe that anyone who would seek the truth will find it as Jesus said in Scripture.
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What you are doing is asserting a form of personal infallibility- you will do right what others have done wrong. However, it seems to me you are already at some of the wrong conclusions.
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
What you are doing is asserting a form of personal infallibility- you will do right what others have done wrong. However, it seems to me you are already at some of the wrong conclusions.
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and what’s to say that your conclusions are right? What’s to say that all of the churches conclusions are right?
 
Clement of Alexandria said that, “The Word Jesus Christ ALONE was born without sin.” This certainly isn’t what the church teaches.
 
BrewMax said:
and what’s to say that your conclusions are right? What’s to say that all of the churches conclusions are right?
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The Ctholic Church has held its dogmas and doctrines for millenia. You have had yours for a few decades at best.

I would put my trust in the institution given to us by Christ to help us in this area, and that has the teaching authority of Magisterium.
 
JFonseka said:
Really, you either haven’t read the Bible or missed it, I recall it was in Luke that the angel said “Haily mary, full of grace”
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Just for the record, I listened to Scott Hahn yesterday saying that when the Angel greeted Mary in Luke 1:28, it was the only time in Scripture when an Angel didn’t use the name of the person. Garbiel said, “Hail, Full of Grace.”

It was a title.
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BrewMax:
How can Mary be without sin? That doesn’t make sense. The Bible says ALL have fallen short of God’s grace.
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Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

If she wasn’t without sin, that would mean that God allowed sin to nuture Jesus.
And didi you say that James was Jesus’ cousin? I’m lost there too. The Bible says that he was Jesus’ brother. I never realized that the Catholic church teaches things which are contrary to the Bible. I never knew this.
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The Bible says that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister/SIL/cousin of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.
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BrewMax:
What?? I do must say that this doesn’t sound Biblical to me. Mary isn’t my mother. She was a great Christian but she isn’t my mother.
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Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

The above quotes are from Scripture Catholic scripturecatholic.com/index.html which I suggest BrewMax has a look at with an open mind and not one that has been closed to the Truth by the traditions of men, ie anti-Catholics who have, in the past misrepresented Catholic Teaching and Doctrine.

May I also recommend that BrewMax listens to the story of Professor Scott Hahn who was an anti-Catholic Protestant minister who, to his initial horror, realised that what the Catholic Church teaches is consistent with the Bible.
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/searchprog.asp?pgnu=4&T1=scott%20hahn
 
BrewMax said:
This is not so, sorry. Paul preaches for us to read and study the word so that we will know the truth. If you take it upon faith of the magisterium to know what scripture means, then you are putting your faith into folks who differed in opinion from many councils and some of the early church fathers, no thank-you. I will read it for myself and use God given reason and discernment through the Holy Spirit. Again, I don’t mean to pick a fight here, but I am gravely concerned about these things and therefore am not certain of my immediate religious future.
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I’m sorry my friend, but the Magisterium assembled the NT of the Bible you have in your hands. To deny their authority is to call into question the authenticity of the book you hail as supreme.

But please keep asking questions, you are on the right path to the truth 👍
That one single book seems to be the ONLY thing that has stood the test of 2000 years and has NOT changed. It has become everything its authors professed it would be: the same yesterday, today and forever. Nothing else can make this claim.
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The bible only stood substantially unchanged for ~1100 years(395ad ~1530ad). After his departure from the CC, Martin Luther removed several books from the New and Old Testament that didn’t agree with his new found doctrines. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and the NT books were restored, but the OT books were not. They are usually not found in Protestant Bibles or placed in the back as apocrypha.

For the record, The Church was the only thing founded by Jesus that still exists today.

God Bless.
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
The Ctholic Church has held its dogmas and doctrines for millenia. You have had yours for a few decades at best.

I would put my trust in the institution given to us by Christ to help us in this area, and that has the teaching authority of Magisterium.
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How are you certain that these are Christ’s teachings? I have already shown you where the church has had disputes with its councils and the early church fathers and clearly contains dogma which is clearly in conflict with many of the early church fathers.
 
Grateful4mercy said:
For the record, The Church was the only thing founded by Jesus that still exists today.

God Bless.
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I do not agree. The church has changed in many facets since the days of Christ. Many will argue that this was the call for the Reformation.
 
BrewMax said:
How are you certain that these are Christ’s teachings? I have already shown you where the church has had disputes with its councils and the early church fathers and clearly contains dogma which is clearly in conflict with many of the early church fathers.
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Conversations in written form between early church fathers are not dogma or the final authoritative word on faith or morals.

Perhaps you should offer a few quotes and their authors in order for us to better understand your point.
 
BrewMax said:
How are you certain that these are Christ’s teachings? I have already shown you where the church has had disputes with its councils and the early church fathers and clearly contains dogma which is clearly in conflict with many of the early church fathers.
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Also remember that the early Church had to deal with heresy- just look at the Arianists or the Gnostics.

Councils were called to clarify what the Church’s teaching actually should be. For example, it was not until 325 A.D. that the doctrine of the Trinity was defined, and not until about 400 A.D. that the offical canon was decided. Think about it- without the Church, everyone would have to start interpreting the Bible from scratch. You owe much of what you already belive to the Church, anyway.
 
BrewMax said:
I do not agree. The church has changed in many facets since the days of Christ. Many will argue that this was the call for the Reformation.
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I would expect that many would protest against Christ’s Church. He said the way was narrow and few would find it.

He also said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it…I’m afraid I’m going to have to go with Jesus on this one.
 
Grateful4mercy said:
Conversations in written form between early church fathers are not dogma or the final authoritative word on faith or morals.

Perhaps you should offer a few quotes and their authors in order for us to better understand your point.
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“Only a sinner needs a Savior and Mary must have been a sinner.”*Thomas Aquinas

*Mary herself stated, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior.”

“But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say that this was impossible.” Peter Lombard

do you need some more?
 
BrewMax said:
“Only a sinner needs a Savior and Mary must have been a sinner.”*Thomas Aquinas

*Mary herself stated, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior.”

“But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say that this was impossible.” Peter Lombard

do you need some more?
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Whereas we are freed from Original Sin at Baptism, Mary never was subject to Original Sin. Both our salvation and hers were made possible by Christ. Mary would not have been saved without Jesus even though she was sinless. Without Jesus, no one could be saved.
 
BrewMax said:
“Only a sinner needs a Savior and Mary must have been a sinner.”*Thomas Aquinas

*Mary herself stated, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior.”

“But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say that this was impossible.” Peter Lombard

do you need some more?
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Yeah, the 12th and 13th centuries don’t exactly count as ‘early’ do they? By then the doctrine of Mary was ~1000 years old.

And nobody has ever claimed that Mary saved herself. Stop building strawmen. God created her without sin, do you doubt he could do it?

Id also like to see complete paragraphs. The quote from Peter Lombard looks like he is responding to somebody else’s question, not stating his own beliefs.
 
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