A Question for Catholics

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Grateful4mercy said:
Yeah, the 12th and 13th centuries don’t exactly count as ‘early’ do they? By then the doctrine of Mary was ~1000 years old.

And nobody has ever claimed that Mary saved herself. Stop building strawmen. God created her without sin, do you doubt he could do it?

Id also like to see complete paragraphs. The quote from Peter Lombard looks like he is responding to somebody else’s question, not stating his own beliefs.
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you have your quotes and I knew that no matter what you would try and pick them apart so no surprise there, would you like more?
 
“If the Scriptures are duly considered, and the sayings of the doctors ANCIENT and modern who have been devoted to the glorious virgin, she was conceived IN sin.” *St. Antoninus *
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
Why not? In God, all things are possible.

It is commonly accepted that Genesis 3:15 foreshadows this.
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It is by the Catholic church. Please understand, I am only trying address that which is really concerning me.
 
BrewMax said:
It is by the Catholic church. Please understand, I am only trying address that which is really concerning me.
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Like I tried to point out in a prior post:

The word/title the angel Gabriel uses for Mary in the original greek version of the NT is “kecharitomene”, which indicates that God has already “graced” Mary previous to this point making her a vessel who **has been **and **is now **filled with divine life.

She also says in Luke “all generations will call me Blessed”!
 
Delraek said:
Like I tried to point out in a prior post:

The word/title the angel Gabriel uses for Mary in the original greek version of the NT is “kecharitomene”, which indicates that God has already “graced” Mary previous to this point making her a vessel who **has been **and **is now **filled with divine life.

She also says in Luke “all generations will call me Blessed”!
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This is not what my Bible says here. The more correct translation of this is “highly favoured”.
 
BrewMax said:
This is not what my Bible says here. The more correct translation of this is “highly favoured”.
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What translation are you using? I think of it in context of the Latin: Ave Maria, gratia plena… (gratia plena meaning, literally, full of grace)
 
BrewMax said:
you have your quotes and I knew that no matter what you would try and pick them apart so no surprise there, would you like more?
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If such is the measure of the strength of your argument my faith has no adversary, my friend.

I recommend more prayer and study if you are to survive this endeavor. You are in the presence of giants, mere mortals such as myself cower in their knowledge of the Most High.

Best of luck in your journey, my brother in Christ 👍
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
Then we’re going nowhere, fast.

Why couldn’t Mary be sinless?
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Hi

Even we Muslims consider Maryam to be sinless:
  1. God chose her for His conversation with her
  2. Angles visited her, she was a pious friend of GodAllahYHWH
  3. She was selected by GodAllahYHWH to give birth to a child who was to be a ProphetMessenger of Him.
  4. That Prophecy in fact was fulfilled
All of this is an ample proof that lady Maryam was sinless in the eyes of GodAllahYHWH.
We Muslims love Jesus, Mary, and apostles of Jesus.

Thanks
 
John_Hiner said:
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

This points to one reason why Jesus did not have natural brothers and sisters. Jesus would not have wanted them to suffer such “sibling rivalry.”

As the perfect mother, the Virgin Mary would not and did not consent to it either.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
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Guys it was a joke, just a simple joke, for goodness sake! Not a theological debate! Lighten up!
 
BrewMax said:
How can Mary be without sin? That doesn’t make sense. The Bible says ALL have fallen short of God’s grace. And didi you say that James was Jesus’ cousin? I’m lost there too. The Bible says that he was Jesus’ brother. I never realized that the Catholic church teaches things which are contrary to the Bible. I never knew this.
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In case you did not know, BrewMax, the Greek word for brother, adelphos, can also mean cousin. Not only this, but some people interpret our Lord’s “brethren” as being the children of St. Joseph from a previous marriage. Why do you shamelessly attack our Lady’s perpetual virginity? Even your protestant hero, Luther, agreed with the Virgin Mary’s perpetual virginity…
 
BrewMax said:
I couldn’t find a single one of these thoughts in the Bible. Sorry. Mary was a woman chosen for a special purpose. Why all of this other stuff?
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Really? The you ignore the prophesy of Isaiah regarding the virgin birth.Or are you putting limits on the power of God to have a person sinless if He so chooses for His plan of salvation?
 
BrewMax said:
prove it.
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come now, that “argument” can be used for the entire Bible, can it not? God created the universe as in Genesis…prove it. The Red Sea parted…prove it. and so on. Surely you can do better than that. Your understanding is flawed. Yes, Jesus was Mary’s Savior, in advance. By Divine Will, she was able to experience the salvation of Christ in advance of what He did by His death and Resurrection, therefore being sinless by virtue of Jesus’ redemption. His Redemption is timeless and eternal, you must try to understand it from that perspective. All who slept since Adam have been redeemed…how can this be so if not for the timeless aspect of the Redemption. Even Paul alludes to this when speaking regarding the question of what happens to those who dies before Christ’s coming and redemptive act. Pray for the Holy Spirit to open your mind to the truth.
 
thecoach said:
come now, that “argument” can be used for the entire Bible, can it not? God created the universe as in Genesis…prove it. The Red Sea parted…prove it. and so on. Surely you can do better than that. Your understanding is flawed. Yes, Jesus was Mary’s Savior, in advance. By Divine Will, she was able to experience the salvation of Christ in advance of what He did by His death and Resurrection, therefore being sinless by virtue of Jesus’ redemption. His Redemption is timeless and eternal, you must try to understand it from that perspective. All who slept since Adam have been redeemed…how can this be so if not for the timeless aspect of the Redemption. Even Paul alludes to this when speaking regarding the question of what happens to those who dies before Christ’s coming and redemptive act. Pray for the Holy Spirit to open your mind to the truth.
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The truth is far simpler than having to do flips and circles and other acrobatics to try and disprove Scripture. Mary stated, “I rejoice in God my Savior.” Mary needed a Savior same as all of us. Forget the pretzel logic.
 
BrewMax said:
The truth is far simpler than having to do flips and circles and other acrobatics to try and disprove Scripture. Mary stated, “I rejoice in God my Savior.” Mary needed a Savior same as all of us. Forget the pretzel logic.
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Laudatur Iesus Christus.

The question of needing a savior is separate from the question of whether a person has sinned. Every newborn baby needs the Savior, because of his inherited separation from the life of God. However, before the age of reason, no child has or can personally sin.

Because of this distinction, we need to take more time to consider the arguments being raised here. Merely showing that Mary needed the Savior is not the same as showing that she personally sinned.

Of course, the Blessed Virgin was preserved by the Savior from the taint of Original Sin as well. So there is a lot to consider. But the point above stands, showing the Mary needed the Savior does not show that she sinned.

When St. Paul says that “all have sinned,” he did not mean to assert that Jesus had sinned, though Jesus was fully human. This shows that the phrase “all have sinned” cannot be taken to exclude exceptions. Once we acknowledge that Jesus was an exception, we open the possibility that the Blessed Mother was a second exception. The question becomes how to proceed to determine whether this possibility is indeed the case.

The direction to look to correctly determine this question is to consider fully the implications of Jesus being both fully human and fully divine. In considering this, one must consider divinity’s incompatibility with sin and whether the “Gateway” through which God entered the flesh could be tainted with sin in anyway. The belief of the Church is that this would be incompatible. Therefore. the key to seeing Mary’s sinlessness is in considering the true and complete divinity of Jesus.

It is to defend and make clear the absolute and complete divinity of Jesus that the Church so tenatiously and carefully defends the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
BrewMax said:
The truth is far simpler than having to do flips and circles and other acrobatics to try and disprove Scripture. Mary stated, “I rejoice in God my Savior.” Mary needed a Savior same as all of us. Forget the pretzel logic.
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no pretzal logic, it seems pretty straight forward to me. You chose to wish to argue the point even after it is explained to you. so it seems your mind is already set. Follow what you feel you need to, but dont push it on us.
 
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