A question for conservative catholics!

[someperson555]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being. therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”. so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.
just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

 

[Operalan]

Please show me in the “capitalist’s manifesto” where someone is NOT allowed to have property?

 

[Jim_Baur]

Doesn’t capitalism by definition mean that one owns property?

 

[albertus_magnus]

Capitalism cannot exist without the property rights.

 

[CB_Catholic]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being. therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”. so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.
just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

I think you are confused about what exactly capitalism is.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being. therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”. so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.
just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

The only “ism” that I have is Christian-ism. Follow Christ.
The other “isms” were criticized by John Paul II: communis, fascism, nazism, socialism, capitalism.
No Catholic can reduce Catholic Doctrine to a Party Doctrine.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

The only “ism” that I have is Christian-ism. Follow Christ.
The other “isms” were criticized by John Paul II: communis, fascism, nazism, socialism, capitalism.
No Catholic can reduce Catholic Doctrine to a Party Doctrine.

Beautifully written. I second that.

 

[Tietjen]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being. therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”. so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.
just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

Hmmm… Where would the government get all this “property” to redistribute? Ahh… from those that have… cool… I’ll take half of your property please.

 

[DavidtheGnome]

While I am not a catholic (yet) I am conservative so I thought I would weigh in on this one…

I agree that capitalism is far from a perfect system (but better than socialism) and the wage gap which exists in the US is an unsustainable condition.

The issue I have with some of the recent attacks on capitalism is that some of my friends on facebook have made the mistake of confusing capitalism, which is not intrinsically (always) evil with abortion, contraception and gay marriage. The argument goes something like:

“The economy is the most important issue in the upcoming election- we have a moral obligation to vote for the candidate who will best support the poor and middle classes.”

The problem with this argument is that the Church (and I hope most consciences) prioritizes the right to life and the sanctity of marriage above the right to adequate material means even though ALL three are important.

The Church, Independent Charities and private citizens can all act to meet the unmet needs of those less fortunate in society (Indeed- this was the model throughout most of history before the rise of government support programs).

Only the government is in the unique position of protecting the right to life of the unborn and the sanctity of marriage by enacting and upholding just laws.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I think you are confused about what exactly capitalism is.

or socialism for that matter

 

[PrayHarder]

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being.

Can you point me to those teachings? Perhaps a passage from the Catechism?

 

[pangaious]

There is, in my opinion, a better alternative than both capitalism and socialism. thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project
Let me quote from there: “The problems we are faced with today cannot be solved politically or financially because they are highly technical in nature. There may not even be enough money available to pay for the required changes, but there are more than enough resources. This is why The Venus Project advocates the transition from a monetary-based society to the eventual realization of a resource-based global economy.”

 

[JRKH]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

There is a common problem with every form of government/social system that has been tried…That common problem is “sin”…
Not really what you are asking about but thought I’d toss it in…

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being.

Define what you mean by “property”.
Even the homeless person pushing a shopping cart has “property”.

therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”.

Not true at all. Private ownership of property is a foundational principle of free market capitalism

so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.

Your problem seems to stem from a poor understanding of the systems you are trying to compare.
Socialism = Governmental control of the means of production. How does “governmental control” fit with the right to the individual to property?
Capitalism = Private control of the means of production. This actually sounds much nearer to the Catholic idea.

just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

And the government DOES guarantee the right of the individual to own property…
So - where is the problem??

Peace
James

 

[someperson555]

There is a common problem with every form of government/social system that has been tried…That common problem is “sin”…
Not really what you are asking about but thought I’d toss it in…

thats true, but this is actually why socialism is a better alternative to capitalism since socialists recognize that people are greedy, and try to institute a system to best prevent people from being greedy.
whereas capitalism rewards greed.

Define what you mean by “property”.
Even the homeless person pushing a shopping cart has “property”.

housing and maybe even prouctive property.

Not true at all. Private ownership of property is a foundational principle of free market capitalism
nope, capitalism merely ALLOWS you to own property but there is no guaruntee under a capitalist system. people are entitled to have property as is stated in the past encyclicals by various popes. the government thus has a moral obligation to institute a system which guaruntees everyone property.
Your problem seems to stem from a poor understanding of the systems you are trying to compare.
Socialism = Governmental control of the means of production. How does “governmental control” fit with the right to the individual to property?
Capitalism = Private control of the means of production. This actually sounds much nearer to the Catholic idea.

LOLOLOL no, socialism is NOT government control over the means of production. there are various types of socialism. some types espouse worker control over the means of production, some types espouse class cooperation. and theres many other types but socialism can basically be described as a system which works for the collective interests. socialism still allows private ownership of the means of production in many cases, except there are set limitations and guidelines to what an individual is allowed to do with his property. this is actually far closer to catholicism because socialism seeks to prevents usury, greed, exploitation, etc whereas capitalism doesnt care and actually rewards such behavoir.

And the government DOES guarantee the right of the individual to own property…
So - where is the problem??

that is deceptive language, the government guaruntees a person his right to life, yet we still have abortions. if a person has a right, then its the government’s responsibility to help him live out that right! otherwise you could legalise euthanasia, a person has a right to life, but you cant stop him from willfully taking his own life if we go by your logic.
if a person has a God given right, a person must be guarunteed those things as much as possible.
Peace
James

 

[someperson555]

While I am not a catholic (yet) I am conservative so I thought I would weigh in on this one…

I agree that capitalism is far from a perfect system (but better than socialism) and the wage gap which exists in the US is an unsustainable condition.

The issue I have with some of the recent attacks on capitalism is that some of my friends on facebook have made the mistake of confusing capitalism, which is not intrinsically (always) evil with abortion, contraception and gay marriage. The argument goes something like:

“The economy is the most important issue in the upcoming election- we have a moral obligation to vote for the candidate who will best support the poor and middle classes.”

The problem with this argument is that the Church (and I hope most consciences) prioritizes the right to life and the sanctity of marriage above the right to adequate material means even though ALL three are important.

The Church, Independent Charities and private citizens can all act to meet the unmet needs of those less fortunate in society (Indeed- this was the model throughout most of history before the rise of government support programs).

Only the government is in the unique position of protecting the right to life of the unborn and the sanctity of marriage by enacting and upholding just laws.

its true that certain things must take precedence over helping the poor, (like the pro-life movement) however in my humble opinion gay marriage is not one of these issues. with all due respect i find it ridiculous that gay marriage is even an issue when theres a separation of church and state. besides ask yourself, how has voting for anti-gay republicans worked out so far?

either way there is an inconsistency with conservative catholics when it comes to politics. the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to life and property, yet conservative catholics seem to ignore the latter. even when the right to life is not threatened!

 

[someperson555]

There is, in my opinion, a better alternative than both capitalism and socialism. thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project
Let me quote from there: “The problems we are faced with today cannot be solved politically or financially because they are highly technical in nature. There may not even be enough money available to pay for the required changes, but there are more than enough resources. This is why The Venus Project advocates the transition from a monetary-based society to the eventual realization of a resource-based global economy.”

i love zeitgeist!
i agree with most of what they have to say, however the only thing i find troubling is that they advovcate a technocracy.

 

[JRKH]

thats true, but this is actually why socialism is a better alternative to capitalism since socialists recognize that people are greedy, and try to institute a system to best prevent people from being greedy.
whereas capitalism rewards greed.

The system does not effect people being greedy, all it does it to cause those who are greedy to change certain tactics to fit the situation they find themselves in.
Capitalism rewards intelligence, initiative, it rewards hard work, it rewards persistence. Likewise Capitalism punishes laziness, shoddy work and stupidity…and it does so very quickly.
Socialism as it has been implemented and practiced over the last 100 years or so tends to do the opposite.
As sad as it is to say this - it is never the less true.

housing and maybe even productive property.

This is a very narrow definition. I wonder if this is the definition that the Vatican has in mind when they use the term.

nope, capitalism merely ALLOWS you to own property but there is no guarantee under a capitalist system. people are entitled to have property as is stated in the past encyclicals by various popes. the government thus has a moral obligation to institute a system which guarantees everyone property.

Socialism - in the broader definition that you give below does not guarantee property ownership either. If one takes it to the “communist” extreme - (everyone owns everything in common) then no one owns it.

LOLOLOL no, socialism is NOT government control over the means of production. there are various types of socialism. some types espouse worker control over the means of production, some types espouse class cooperation. and there’s many other types but socialism can basically be described as a system which works for the collective interests.

Well - this is a more broad definition of Socialism (as distinct from Communism) than I was taught in School lo- the many decades ago…but - fair enough.

socialism still allows private ownership of the means of production in many cases,

And there is socialism that does not. The USSR practiced this form of “socialism” - everything held in common…How did that work out?

except there are set limitations and guidelines to what an individual is allowed to do with his property.

Which is just the kind of thing that stifles industry and creativity. Such rules work AGAINST the common good, not in favor of it. Look back through history at the number of things invented in neighborhood garages and basements. Look at the number of people who fed their families from the work they could do from their house/yard etc.
I see this form of “socialism” in our country today - called “Zoning Laws” and “Community Covenants” in some areas. While I am fine with the local communities having the right to legislate certain things, I like having the right to NOT live there if I so choose…

this is actually far closer to Catholicism because socialism seeks to prevents usury, greed, exploitation, etc whereas capitalism doesn’t care and actually rewards such behavior.

At this point my friend allow me to return the LOLOLOL
I’ll agree that the government of a socialist system will seek to prevent the crimes (sins) you mention above…But so does the government of a capitalist system.

that is deceptive language, the government guarantees a person his right to life, yet we still have abortions. if a person has a right, then its the government’s responsibility to help him live out that right!

Wrong. The government has the responsibility to protect the right. They do NOT have the responsibility to “help him live out that right”. There is a very big difference.

otherwise you could legalize euthanasia, a person has a right to life, but you cant stop him from willfully taking his own life if we go by your logic.

Laws against Euthanasia ARE protecting the right to life in that it prevents another from taking your life. As far as Suicide goes…you are absolutely right…No one can prevent a person from taking their own life if they so choose…and I DARE a socialist system to do any better in this regard.

if a person has a God given right, a person must be guaranteed those things as much as possible.

Correct - the person must be guaranteed the right to these things as much as possible.

The problem here is that you believe the system is at fault when it is not. It is the people who are at fault and those same people with the same faults will exist in a Communist system a socialist system, a capitalist system or any other system you can think up.

You mention certain sins as being rewarded by Capitalism…and you claim that they are not rewarded in a Socialist system…usury, greed, exploitation. I’ll pretty much guarantee that you will find these same sins in any socialist system on the planet. The Black market thrives in places where shortages exist, Loan sharking likewise, Prostitution too - so that takes care of usury greed and exploitation… Then we can add the sin of Sloth to that - because why work harder if you can’t get ahead, why make a better product when you are guaranteed food and shelter, cradle to grave?

I’ve worked in industry for many many years and seen all types of workers. MOST and I do mean MOST, work as well as they do because they know they could lose their job if they don’t “measure up” and if they lose their job, they could lose their “property”…
Remove that possibility and their work ethic would fall off.
This phenomenon is seen time after time.

The bottom line in all of this is - put ALL perfect people in any system and it will work perfectly.
Put SOME imperfect (sinful) people into any system and the works will be gummed up.
It ain’t the system - it’s the people…

Peace
James

 

[PrayHarder]

the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to life and property

I asked this before and I’ll ask it again, what Catholic doctrine clearly states people have a right to property?

Last time I checked, anyone in the USA does have the opportunity to buy property. I didn’t see a “caste” section on my home loan or a section that said “[Some group here] need not apply.”

 

[someperson555]

The system does not effect people being greedy, all it does it to cause those who are greedy to change certain tactics to fit the situation they find themselves in.
Capitalism rewards intelligence, initiative, it rewards hard work, it rewards persistence. Likewise Capitalism punishes laziness, shoddy work and stupidity…and it does so very quickly.
Socialism as it has been implemented and practiced over the last 100 years or so tends to do the opposite.
As sad as it is to say this - it is never the less true.

that is simply not true. capitalism favors ignoble practices. in the capitalist world the only thing that matters is profit, how you achieve it is up to you. therefore according to the capitalist world view it is perfectly acceptable to cheat, lie, exploit, as long as you get your profit. a big multi-national knows that by building one of it’s stores in a small town it will destroy the small businesses of the area, yet they do it anyway just to make a few extra bucks.
capitalists are experts at rationalising their greed. my parents are from a poor eastern european country, and currently that nation’s economy is being ruined by multi-national corporations who set up their businesses there. the excuse of the capitalists is “well we give them jobs”, when in reality its basically a mild slavery. not to mention it ruins homegrown businesses so the people are practically forced to buy from the multi-nationals.
its the same way in america, a capitalist wont think twice about laying off his workers just so he can ship their jobs off to india.
to get ahead in the world of capitalism you basically have to con and use people.

This is a very narrow definition. I wonder if this is the definition that the Vatican has in mind when they use the term.

well what do you think they meant?

Socialism - in the broader definition that you give below does not guarantee property ownership either. If one takes it to the “communist” extreme - (everyone owns everything in common) then no one owns it.

thats why im not a communist.
but socialism makes it an objective for the people to have the basics. different types of socialism take different approaches on how to achieve this goal.
but the reason socialism is superior to capitalism is because socialism clearly defines meeting the needs of the people as a set goal, whereas capitalism has no set goal except for accumulating more wealth.

And there is socialism that does not. The USSR practiced this form of “socialism” - everything held in common…How did that work out?

im not saying i support soviet style socialism, but the people were better off under the USSR than the Czar!

Which is just the kind of thing that stifles industry and creativity. Such rules work AGAINST the common good, not in favor of it. Look back through history at the number of things invented in neighborhood garages and basements. Look at the number of people who fed their families from the work they could do from their house/yard etc.
I see this form of “socialism” in our country today - called “Zoning Laws” and “Community Covenants” in some areas. While I am fine with the local communities having the right to legislate certain things, I like having the right to NOT live there if I so choose…

please define “creativity” and 'the common good", are light brites and weight loss smoothies really that much of a bonus to human development? and havent you ever heard of planned obsolescence? you see, having no regulations actually stifle and restrict creativity because a business is not interested in making a car which will never break down, on the contrary it wants to make sure that car eventually breaks down so youll have to buy a new one.

At this point my friend allow me to return the LOLOLOL
I’ll agree that the government of a socialist system will seek to prevent the crimes (sins) you mention above…But so does the government of a capitalist system.

ok lol i deserved that.

Wrong. The government has the responsibility to protect the right. They do NOT have the responsibility to “help him live out that right”. There is a very big difference.

Laws against Euthanasia ARE protecting the right to life in that it prevents another from taking your life. As far as Suicide goes…you are absolutely right…No one can prevent a person from taking their own life if they so choose…and I DARE a socialist system to do any better in this regard.

Correct - the person must be guaranteed the right to these things as much as possible.

The problem here is that you believe the system is at fault when it is not. It is the people who are at fault and those same people with the same faults will exist in a Communist system a socialist system, a capitalist system or any other system you can think up.

You mention certain sins as being rewarded by Capitalism…and you claim that they are not rewarded in a Socialist system…usury, greed, exploitation. I’ll pretty much guarantee that you will find these same sins in any socialist system on the planet. The Black market thrives in places where shortages exist, Loan sharking likewise, Prostitution too - so that takes care of usury greed and exploitation… Then we can add the sin of Sloth to that - because why work harder if you can’t get ahead, why make a better product when you are guaranteed food and shelter, cradle to grave?

I’ve worked in industry for many many years and seen all types of workers. MOST and I do mean MOST, work as well as they do because they know they could lose their job if they don’t “measure up” and if they lose their job, they could lose their “property”…
Remove that possibility and their work ethic would fall off.
This phenomenon is seen time after time.

socialism does not advocate handouts, what you are referring to is welfare capitalism, which i agree is absurd. healthy people who dont work should not have access to the basics provided by the government.
however people should also not have to work 9-5 just to survive. it is the greatest problem of a capitalistic society that instead of spending their time perfecting the arts and sciences, people are slaving away just to pay their mortgage. and why? just so they will have some place to sleep while they are not at work.

The bottom line in all of this is - put ALL perfect people in any system and it will work perfectly.
Put SOME imperfect (sinful) people into any system and the works will be gummed up.
It ain’t the system - it’s the people…

Peace
James

well that much is true. but the system can prevent certain effects of sin.

 

[Nigel7]

It is the duty and responsibility of the individual Christian person to share what they have with the poor, to give to those in need.

It is not the duty and responsibility of a Government of free peoples to forcibly take property away from its people and “redistribute” that property to others as it see’s fit. Socialism is not Christian. Not even close.