A question for conservative catholics!

[LeafByNiggle]

This is where a private charity or church (like, say, The Catholic Church?) (or “Antiochian Orthodox”) should step in and help you. Herein lies the problem: we private citizens, we christians and our churches, have given up the christian obligation to take care of the less fortunate and instead passed it on to government where it doesn’t belong.

The existence of government programs to aid the less fortunate does not prevent the churches and private charity efforts. Despite the government programs, the unmet need is huge, overwhelming the resources of food pantries and the like. You may want to play around with social experiments where we take away all government programs and then see if private charities step up and take up the slack. But you would be playing with other people’s lives in the meantime. Which are you more concerned about - helping the less fortunate or providing opportunities for good people to earn their gold stars by doing works of charity? (Those opportunities already exist.)

 

[cmforte]

The existence of government programs to aid the less fortunate does not prevent the churches and private charity efforts. Despite the government programs, the unmet need is huge, overwhelming the resources of food pantries and the like. You may want to play around with social experiments where we take away all government programs and then see if private charities step up and take up the slack. But you would be playing with other people’s lives in the meantime. Which are you more concerned about - helping the less fortunate or providing opportunities for good people to earn their gold stars by doing works of charity? (Those opportunities already exist.)

There are over 2 billion “christians” of all denominations and sects in the world. 2 billion in the RCC alone, last time I saw the numbers. While many are in poverty, many others are not. Why is the need not being met by private charity efforts? Is it greed? Is it laziness? Is it dependence on government to the point where we think we don’t have to do anything anymore except pay taxes? I submit to you that the needs of the less fortunate are not being met by private charity efforts because we passed the obligation on to government. I am in great need myself: I’d rather be able to go to my Church and get a donation or even a loan to pay my rent that I am a month late on because of recent unemployment instead of going to the welfare office. *Why can’t I do that? *

-Chris

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are over 2 billion “christians” of all denominations and sects in the world. 2 billion in the RCC alone, last time I saw the numbers. While many are in poverty, many others are not. Why is the need not being met by private charity efforts? Is it greed? Is it laziness? Is it dependence on government to the point where we think we don’t have to do anything anymore except pay taxes? I submit to you that the needs of the less fortunate are not being met by private charity efforts because we passed the obligation on to government. I am in great need myself: I’d rather be able to go to my Church and get a donation or even a loan to pay my rent that I am a month late on because of recent unemployment instead of going to the welfare office. *Why can’t I do that? *

-Chris

Then you and I agree that the need is great. But how is cutting off government programs going to make people so much more charitable so that they would do all the government is doing now and even more?

 

[cmforte]

Then you and I agree that the need is great. But how is cutting off government programs going to make people so much more charitable so that they would do all the government is doing now and even more?

Well, again, no one is discussing cutting off government programs. Secondly, I find myself coming to a catch 22: Our faiths and other private charity groups should step in and take over the entire role of taking care of the less fortunate from government. But this won’t happen as long as the government has that role. But we can’t cut off all government programs for the less fortunate until our faiths and private charity groups step in and take over the entire role, which they won’t do as long as the government: :banghead::…well, you get it…I agree that a safety net, some government programs for the poor, disabled, old, and what have you are neccessary in this current reality. It is only in a more perfect world (for no world is “perfect” if it has these problems) that our churches (laity and heirarchy) step in as viable alternatives. I just wish they would and pray that one day they do…

-Chris

 

[Ender]

Then you and I agree that the need is great. But how is cutting off government programs going to make people so much more charitable so that they would do all the government is doing now and even more?

Has anyone actually recommended that all government programs be cut off? Why would you suggest a possibility no one perceives as reasonable?

Ender

 

[white_sheep]

An anecdotal story is hardly evidence…
But I will grant that you rightly ask…“How can this be?”…However - it is significant that you provide no answer to that question…

In relation to the bolded…
This is going to depend on where you look around and how you define "work.
The “inner city” people you refer to and not working are generally receiving government aide of some sort. Someone else is working to support them. See how well these same people would fare if that support were suddenly removed.
Other places where people live “subsistence lifestyles”, they may not “work” in the same manner we are use to in our society but their entire day is consumed with trying to get food - keep food - make shelter etc…
And that presumes that these people - such as you describe in Africa and Mexico are NOT getting some sort of charitable assistance…From other people who ARE working…

Let me take all that you possess from you…
Your house, car, job, money, everything…Then - let’s place you and several like minded people together in a community in the middle of a wilderness with only three hatchets, three knives and three fishing poles…Nothing else…except the clothes on your back.
We’ll drop you off on March 1 and will leave you there for a year…
At the end of that year - we’ll come back and see just how hard you had to work just to maintain your subsistence lifestyle…

Peace
James

Here, read this. nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Africa/Ghana-WORKING-CONDITIONS.html

For much of the year in subsistence farming there is relatively little work to do, and this work is shared among family members. During planting and harvesting, there is more work to be done, and everyone is more fully occupied, but even in these periods, there may be more than enough labor to do the tasks, and the work is again shared.

 

[someperson555]

I am a part of the “Capitalist world” and deny that “the only thing that matters is profit”. Any capitalist worth his salt recognizes this. Yes, profit and loss are the most basic indicator of the health of a company but they are not the only indicators.

There are capitalists who believe this and those who do not…This is, as I have repeatedly pointed out, a problem of individuals - not the system.

Yes - but they would not do this if the locals continued to buy from their neighbors and ignored the big store…No body forces the local shopper to go to the big box store instead of to the store of their neighbor.
So - where does the fault lie here?? Is it with the multi-national chain? or is it with the local shopper who turns their back on their neighbor’s store and their neighbor’s welfare??

the fault lies with both of them. both the consumers and mega corporations are sinning. you cant just place the blame solely on the people for shopping at the corporations. for example, if a drug dealer would start selling drugs in your neighborhood, would you blame his customers? would you say “hey they dont have to buy the drugs”. ofcourse you wouldnt, and the drug dealer knows in his conscience that hes sining since he is making it possible for people to buy his drugs. the corpoations are guilty for the same reason, when a corporate capitalist knows that opening his store in a small community will force the small businesses to close their doors, he is guilty of sin. since he is indifferent to the effects that his desire for profit will have on the community.

How are the local businesses ruined??? Is it in some way similar to what I relate above?

because the consumers will buy wares that are cheaper because they are manufactured overseas by slave labour

There is truth in this - but there are trade offs even in this. Should I, as a Christian, begrudge the people in India the jobs???

it is the indian people’s responsibility to solve their own unemployment. and its ultimately better for their economy if they shop at their own homegrown businesses.

This is a flat out not true…Perhaps many people do this…but you do not “have to”…There are a great many good honest people running businesses and most of them emphatically do NOT want more governmental interference in the running of their businesses,

im not saying that all capitalists are automatically evil or start out as evil, but its the system that makes them behave that way. the one goal of the capitalist game is profit therefore its a constant struggle to outdo your competitor lest he outdoes you and puts you out of business. so capitalists have to resort to using immoral practices if they merely wish to not be trampled in the rush.

Arizona Mike seems to have addressed this aspect.
I have not had time to go through all that he provided - it seems to come from several sources…

So - in your socialist ideal…Who determines what constitutes, “meeting the needs of the people”? This is an easy thing to say…but what does that mean???

the government and their physicians and scientists and sociologists, but the truth is any common man with moderate intelligence could answer that question. we must begin with the question of what is relevent? what makes us happy? for happiness a person requires health and a place to live. so the state and economy should focus on this alone. the people as a collective should recognize that these are the universal needs of their national comrades therefore they should make a collective effort to ensure every citizen access to these things (work, healthcare, shelter, etc)

Those who lived (and died) under Stalin might disagree with you…

i agree with you that the past communist regimes were failures, but you have to ask yourself, why did the people revolt in the first place? what caused so many people to take up arms and overthrow the current system?
its because they were already living in misery.

So - in your system would these things not be provided? Would these things…bought and enjoyed by many people with their money never be produced because those in charge decided that they are not necessary to, “meet the needs of the people”?

precisely. this materialist culture is a great evil and the cause of much suffering. its all just manufactured need by advertisements. you do not need cable television to be happy, you do not need the latest iphone to be happy. yet the corporations lie to you and try to tell you that you need useless flashy items to be happy. its the same problem with our private healthcare system. in reality there are cheap natural cures for most diseases out there yet a doctor wont tell you about those remedies, instead he will recommend you the most expensive medicine or surgery since cheap effective home remedies are not “profitable”.

Again I must chuckle because - having lived for 57 + years, I can well remember when a car with 100,000 miles on it was considered “wore out”. Today cars are regularly kept longer and rack up 200,000 miles or more…Even car items that are expected to wear out are better…years ago a 30,000 mile tire was considered a good tire. Today 60,000 mile tires are more the norm.
These things did not come about because some government agency determined what was necessary to meet the needs of the people. These things occurred through competition. The better car lasted longer and so sold more…more economical…Sales fell for the inferior car make and models…who hustled to improve their product and so forth…
It was the people who determined what was necessary and they voted with their dollars.

so youre saying that each year the new version of the iphone is really better than the previous model? and this isnt on purpose? come on now… or consider the fact that each year there is a new model of car that comes out, you are seriously going to tell me that if a team of automechanics and scientists really put their minds together, they could not invent a car that could last for a lifetime?

And Capitalism does not advocate lying cheating and exploitation.

When you guarantee to “meet the needs of the people”…you remove the incentive to work. They may show up, they may even put out a “quota” quality suffers and the ability to “meet the needs of the people” suffers as a result…
It is just as bad - maybe worse - than a handout.

I agree. But again - “just to survive” can mean a number of different things…I know people who think “cable” TV is a necessity of life…People who - no matter how much they might make - is gone within a week and grouse that they “don’t make enough”. Then I’ve seen these same people turn down overtime when offered…a chance to get ahead and they “don’t have the time”…
On the other side, I’ve known those who work low paying jobs, maybe even two jobs and always seem happy, have what they want because they don’t need much. If overtime is offered they grab it because then they can put a little aside for a rainy day. They never complain.

Again - I come back to this idea of yours about “meeting the needs of the people”. I can guarantee that no matter what you provide to the first person I described, they will moan and groan that it is not enough…And they will do a lousy job at their work to boot…

that is why the state must direct both the production and consumption of it’s population. that guy who “just cant live without cable” will be given new more noble values to aspire to. it all comes down to education of the people. we are currently brainwashed by corporate propaganda that we need their products to be content, but ofcourse under a better system this propaganda would take a different route.

a) Arts and Science are never perfected.
b) not everyone is cut out for the arts or sciences…Most people are better suited for fishing…

people can also perfect their physical attributes. the point is that we should invest our time in higher more noble pursuits. to accomplish this people need a good amount of lesiure time.

And have something to pass on to their children…

Each system will prevent some effects and aggravate other effects.

I said it before and I will say it again…The problem is not the system. The problem is the people in the system.

Peace
James

well it is possible to find a system that will favor virtue over vice. therefore we should seek a system which marginalises greed, usery, exploiation, laziness, etc.
we should seek a system which rewards hard work, intelligence, and the like.
society can change for the better!

 

[cmforte]

Then you and I agree that the need is great. But how is cutting off government programs going to make people so much more charitable so that they would do all the government is doing now and even more?

How about Homilies and encyclicals by priests, bishops, and the Pope encouraging lay Catholics and others to do it, to be more charitable, instead of having Homilies and guest speakers speak about how important government welfare is? I was once at a Mass where at the end a guest speaker came up to the podium and showed parishioners how to apply for Food Stamps using instructions in our church Bulletin, then they passed the collection plate around. I’m looking at the collection plate, then at the blurb in my Bulletin instructing people on how to get on Food Stamps, wondering why I should put any money in the collection plate if it is the government that will take care of the poor, and not the parish. Oh, yes, regular expenses like utilities and upkeep, but what about outreach ministries? Or were they all outsourced to the state? (Disclosure: I’,m on Food Stamps. But I’d rather get food or financial help for food from my parish than from the government…but as I said in my last post, that probably will never happen…:crying

-Chris

 

[someperson555]

Conservative Catholics IN AMERICA oppose socialism. That is because Republicans have a similar stance on social issues as the church so most if not all “conservative Catholics” are also Republican. Since conservative Catholics are very likely to pick a belief system and subscribe to it 100% (their beliefs that the church cannot err) they believe that the Republican party is right pretty much 100% of the time. And the Republican part is against socialism. Very simple really.

You should check the gun law thread. Almost everyone was for gun rights because American Catholics are Republicans and Republicans are for gun control. If you polled European Catholics the polls would be reversed, guaranteed.

To be a conservative Catholic you have to have the mindset of sticking with your team. You have to have the mindset that everything the Catholic Church does is right or good and the same can be said about the Republican party.

 

[cmforte]

Then you and I agree that the need is great. But how is cutting off government programs going to make people so much more charitable so that they would do all the government is doing now and even more?

Let’s try a test. Next time you go to Mass (or I think you call it “the Divine Liturgy”?) go up to a fellow parishioner you know is rich and ask for help. Will he/she give you some money to help you with your bills? Or just point you to the nearest welfare office?

Or just do nothing?

-Chris

 

[JRKH]

the fault lies with both of them. both the consumers and mega corporations are sinning. you cant just place the blame solely on the people for shopping at the corporations. for example, if a drug dealer would start selling drugs in your neighborhood, would you blame his customers? would you say “hey they dont have to buy the drugs”. ofcourse you wouldnt, and the drug dealer knows in his conscience that hes sining since he is making it possible for people to buy his drugs. the corpoations are guilty for the same reason, when a corporate capitalist knows that opening his store in a small community will force the small businesses to close their doors, he is guilty of sin. since he is indifferent to the effects that his desire for profit will have on the community.

I agree that there is sin - the sin of greed - in both camps and am glad that you acknowledge this fact as well.
I would ask that you consider carefully though that the store only acts in this way because they can rely on the consumer to act in a certain way. Certainly they will try to “influence” the consumer with sales, variety, advertizing and the like but there is certainly nothing inherently wrong in these things. The local merchants would do the same thing among themselves before the “big box” showed up.
The key - the lynch-pin in making decisions on where to place a store is the consumer’s actions.

because the consumers will buy wares that are cheaper because they are manufactured overseas by slave labour

The key phrase above is “Because the consumers will buy wares that are cheaper…” That is the foundational principle that the big stores count on in placing their units. So - again - it is consumer preference for saving 8 cents on toothpaste that drives this.

it is the indian people’s responsibility to solve their own unemployment. and its ultimately better for their economy if they shop at their own homegrown businesses.

Agreed - and part of the way that they solved their own unemployment is to entice overseas companies to manufacture there…

im not saying that all capitalists are automatically evil or start out as evil, but its the system that makes them behave that way. the one goal of the capitalist game is profit therefore its a constant struggle to outdo your competitor lest he outdoes you and puts you out of business. so capitalists have to resort to using immoral practices if they merely wish to not be trampled in the rush.

Emotional hogwash…

the government and their physicians and scientists and sociologists, but the truth is any common man with moderate intelligence could answer that question.

and each person will come up with a somewhat different answer - and each one’s specialty will influence where they feel the emphasis should be - and each one’s personal preference in what they deem a good lifestyle, or necessary will likewise effect their outlook.
It has been found to be far better to let the people themselves make such determinations.

we must begin with the question of what is relevant? what makes us happy? for happiness a person requires health and a place to live. so the state and economy should focus on this alone. the people as a collective should recognize that these are the universal needs of their national comrades therefore they should make a collective effort to ensure every citizen access to these things (work, healthcare, shelter, etc)

These things are fine goals and might be workable at a local level…For example - the Amish live in very close knit communities and take care of their own. Religious who live a communal life likewise approach the ideal that you mention above.
But in order to work, there must be sufficient freedom for local communities to come together and make their own determination of what constitutes “relevant” and reasonable levels of the various needs of the community. Try to impose it on too large a scale and across people with many and varied backgrounds and outlooks and it becomes much more troublesome.
So - my suggestion to you, and to those who believe as you do, is to organize a community on these principles, develop them, implement them, work out any bugs that show up and then offer this plan to other communities for their consideration.
If it is good -if you can show that your system is better - everyone is happy and satisfied…you should have no problem getting other communities to adopt the principles.
Success in changing society into the ideal you seek can only come through this sort of grass roots change.

i agree with you that the past communist regimes were failures, but you have to ask yourself, why did the people revolt in the first place? what caused so many people to take up arms and overthrow the current system?
its because they were already living in misery.

True - but in moving forward - one must also ask, is “revolution” actually going to produce something better. History shows that, more often than not, it doesn’t.

precisely. this materialist culture is a great evil and the cause of much suffering. its all just manufactured need by advertisements. you do not need cable television to be happy, you do not need the latest iphone to be happy. yet the corporations lie to you and try to tell you that you need useless flashy items to be happy.

Right here you reveal the error of you “central planning” system…What gives you the right to tell ME what I need to be happy.
The Advertizements try to entice me - but I can still say no…I don’t need that.
But YOU…and your cohorts…YOU who are going to decide what is, and is not, “necessary” are not even going to give me the choice…you are going to decide for me what makes me happy…
I say to this…No fair…And more dangerous than the capitalist system…

so youre saying that each year the new version of the iphone is really better than the previous model? and this isnt on purpose? come on now…

Yes - that is what I am saying…Why should this seem so odd to you.
Inventions, knowledge, abilities etc ALL evolve over time…It’s always been that way…

or consider the fact that each year there is a new model of car that comes out, you are seriously going to tell me that if a team of automechanics and scientists really put their minds together, they could not invent a car that could last for a lifetime?

Certainly they could and in truth they already have. Most any car currently built will “last a lifetime” if properly cared for and maintained.

that is why the state must direct both the production and consumption of it’s population. that guy who “just cant live without cable” will be given new more noble values to aspire to. it all comes down to education of the people. we are currently brainwashed by corporate propaganda that we need their products to be content, but of course under a better system this propaganda would take a different route.

Ah yes - they tried that in the USSR and as I recall it worked so well that they had to build fences and walls around the Warsaw Pact countries to keep all us poor workers out…

Seriously - look at history - The USSR did the sort of “Planning” that you espouse and had to build fences to keep people from fleeing to the west - where they could make their own choices.
Meanwhile the US struggles to keep people from pouring over their border trying to get IN…

people can also perfect their physical attributes. the point is that we should invest our time in higher more noble pursuits. to accomplish this people need a good amount of lesiure time.

and isn’t it grand that you are free to choose to do what makes you happy and I am free to do what makes me happy and if those are the same - great…If they are different…great…Free choice…I love it…

well it is possible to find a system that will favor virtue over vice. therefore we should seek a system which marginalises greed, usery, exploiation, laziness, etc.
we should seek a system which rewards hard work, intelligence, and the like.
society can change for the better!

I agree - but as I pointed out above…This cannot be imposed from the top down. It’s been tried and does not work. What you need to do is to gather together like minded folks and create your “Utopia”. This should not be too hard to do. The nation is dotted with small towns etc that are virtually “ghost towns” because of changes in demographics. Find a location, establish a core, advertize (oohh sorry - dirty word ) for folks to come and help and then see how things develop.

Peace
James

 

[yellow8yellowM]

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?”
-Luke 6:32

But charity means pardoning what is unpardonable, or it is no virtue at all.
-G.K. Chesterton, Heretics.

The strong cannot be brave. Only the weak can be brave…
-G.K. Chesterton, Heretics.

God gave us free-will, and thus the freedom to accept or reject Him. Without this freedom, there would be no glory in being righteous. I believe that there is a similar parallel in government. A free-market economic system with minimal (I am not saying zero) government control is the system that provides the most potential for glory. If you succeed in this system you are the most happy, because you will have earned your success. If you help the poor, you it out of charity, not obedience.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

in reality there are cheap natural cures for most diseases out there yet a doctor wont tell you about those remedies, instead he will recommend you the most expensive medicine or surgery since cheap effective home remedies are not “profitable”.

so youre saying that each year the new version of the iphone is really better than the previous model? and this isnt on purpose? come on now… or consider the fact that each year there is a new model of car that comes out, you are seriously going to tell me that if a team of automechanics and scientists really put their minds together, they could not invent a car that could last for a lifetime?

The beautiful thing about a free-market system is that you are free manufacture cheap natural cures and sell them to the public. If they work, I’m sure you would be able to convince people to buy them I’m sure your business will thrive.

You are also free to start a company that makes a car that lasts forever or create an Everlasting Gobstopper. There is nothing stopping you from trying.

 

[JRKH]

The beautiful thing about a free-market system is that you are free manufacture cheap natural cures and sell them to the public. If they work, I’m sure you would be able to convince people to buy them I’m sure your business will thrive.

You are also free to start a company that makes a car that lasts forever or create an Everlasting Gobstopper. There is nothing stopping you from trying.

Whereas in the system that “someperson555” advocates he would NOT be free to do these things. He would be required to get permission from those who decide what is and is not in “the best interest of the people” and what is “necessary for their happiness”.
And - he would have to abide by their decision even if he disagreed with it…

Peace
James

 

[Contarini]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being. therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”. so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.
just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

You’ve summarized the “distributist” position very nicely!

Edwin

 

[ManOnFire]

so many catholics on here whom ive argued with about social issues in the past
have opposed socialism. they have an unconditional support for a thatchartist unregulated free market. therefore they like to go by a social darwinist world view. they oppose any sort of nationalisation or redistribution of wealth.

HOWEVER according to catholic teaching, property is a RIGHT of every human being. therefore if catholics want the government to operate on catholic moral principles then it is the moral duty of catholics to oppose capitalism. since capitalism doesnt hold private property to be a “right”. so i dont see how some catholics can justify being free market republicans.
just like people have a right to life, the catholic doctrine clearly states that people have a right to property, so just like its the government’s obligation to guaruntee a citizen his right to life, so it follows that it is a government’s duty to guaruntee it’s citizen’s property.

Your post ignorantly focuses on only one half of the argument. In order to have a fair argument, both the will of the consumer and the will of the producer need to be considered. If Person A is the consumer, he/she wants to pay the least money for a good or service. If Person B is the producer of Person A’s good or service, then Person B want to charge the highest price for that good or service. Nothing could be fairer than 2 consenting parties in an agreement. You’re only choosing to examine one half of the argument because it makes you feel justified, but you’re ignoring that fact that everyone who has a job is a producer for half their existence and they are a consumer for the other half, until that money is spent, so in the end, it all evens out just fine.

The problem that you fail to realize is that people want “stuff” but don’t want to pay for it, or want to be paid more to afford it, so your problem is psychological. The only real solution is to teach people to NOT WANT stuff. Good luck with that.

 

[TEPO]

When I vote for president this year, public assistance programs will NOT be a contributing factor in my vote. I don’t care about them one way or the other.

I hope nobody thinks this makes me any less of a Christian, or that my position is un-Catholic.

 

[Traditium]

All:

A great topic. I’ve posted a number of thoughts on this at length in my blog.

On Medicare: traditium.com/2012/08/19/on-medicare/#more-496

On Socialism: traditium.com/2012/07/26/on-socialism/

Just to throw in my 2 cents .

JD

 

[djames99]

We of one mind and spirit are not differentiated along partisan lines.

 

[AdamP88]

In response to the OP’s original question - I do not believe the Catholic teaching supports Socialism or opposes Capitalism. It advocates a system which is fair and allows people to work and gain property in an equitable fashion which benefits all of society.

This may not always be the way that society works but it is the way that the catholic members of society are expected to behave.