A question for Jewish members

[mardukm]

Would you say a Jew who is an athiest is a Jew in name only (i.e., not a true Jew)?

Blessings

 

[Auriel]

Would you say a Jew who is an athiest is a Jew in name only (i.e., not a true Jew)?

Blessings

I’m curious about that myself. I have heard the term “non-observant” so I’m wondering if that is the same as a Catholic or Protestants definition of "non- practicing’.

 

[Joshua27]

Would you say a Jew who is an athiest is a Jew in name only (i.e., not a true Jew)?

Blessings

Hmmm…I’m not Jewish (so sorry for butting in), but the name “Jew” was originally meant to represent those who moved to and lived in the land of Judah, or who were of the tribe of Judah (from Israel’s 12 sons) whether through marriage, birth or assimilation. So the name was originally a designation of Nationality (for a lack of better description).

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There’s an error in assumption (that I also personally made some time ago) that equates “Jews” and “Israelites” as the same people. Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites were/are Jews (and I’m talking generationally, not just spiritually as we assume the promises of Christ to the Gentiles).

The Nation of Israel split into the Northern & Southern Kingdoms:

• House of Judah (Southern Kingdom): including tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and priests of Levi (no tribe)
• House of Ephraim (Northern Kingdom): including tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, and Joseph (double tribe through Ephraim & Manesseh)

Often we hear about the captivity of God’s people by Babylon, but we fudge the history and assume (at least I did) that the entire nation of Israel was in Babylon, when only the Southern Kingdom of Judah was held captive in Babylon. Of course, Judah was eventually freed and allowed to return to Jerusalem, but Judah was only the smaller portion of Israel.

Earlier, the Northern Kingdom of Ephraim - the largest portion of Israel - was captured by the Assyrians and were not freed to return to their land (under their own identity)…effectively assimilating with gentiles and losing their heritage altogether [Hosea 1:10]. The Assyrians eventually moved north to Europa and there’s evidence to suspect that they diverged even further, becoming groups like The “Sons of Ori”, and later The Saxons (Isaac’s Sons), and finally merging with the Angles to become Anglo-Saxons and other European groups.

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Those who were allowed to return to Jerusalem after captivity also returned to honoring the Laws of God (passed down through Jacob) and established the religion of Judaism as the official means of expressing their faith, which grew the Nationality into also a Religious Identity. So now one can be a “Jew” either by nationality (person from Judah), descent (Jewish ancestors), or faith (practices Judaism).

So, “no”. An athiestic Jew is still truly a Jew.

 

[Robbinson]

Would you say a Jew who is an athiest is a Jew in name only (i.e., not a true Jew)?

Blessings

You will likley receive many different answers to this question from within the Jewish community. I am a jewish believer/Catholic raised in the Jewish faith who became Christian/Catholic as an adult.

A Jew is an Israelite (one of the 12 tribes of Israel) though the name “Jew” derives from Judah (1 of the twelve tribes). After Solomon, his son’s rule led to a split between the 10 northern tribes and the 2 southern tribes (Benjamin and Judah) - the 10 tribes were lost (conquered by Assyria and assimilated), the 2 remaining tribes were conquered by Babylan - but were permitted to return to Jerusalem within a generation and are the “jews” of today.

As a matter of scripture, an Israelite is a physical descendant (through paternal lines) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, irrespective of belief, although failure to be circumsized can lead to being “cut off” from Israel.

Per rabbinic interpretation (since after the babylonian exile), an Israelite/Jew is a physical descendant through maternal lines of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, irrespective of belief. However, while an athiest who meets this maternal lineage will be considered a “jew” by most, one who believes in Yeshua/Jesus is considered by most within the Jewish community (and the current ruling authorities in Israel) to be no longer Jewish. (An odd, and tragic, result).

Some rabbis and others within the jewish community might say that to be a “jew” requires some affirmative belief and endorsement of “community”. The fact is that a majority of Israel today (the nation) are secular and most jews in the United States are reform/secular jews. Belief/faith and doctrine with the jewish community in the US and worldwide is varied (much like differences among Catholic and Protestant Christians).

But ultimately, “I agree with you” as does scripture - thus Paul says “not all Israel are Israel” - its ultimately about faith.

 

[MelanieAnne]

An atheist is an atheist and atheism cannot be discussed on this forum, according to forum rules.

A Jew is a Jew. This is not hard to figure out. Jesus was a Jew. His Mother Mary was a Jew. The Apostles of Jesus at least started their lives as Jews.

Is there a point to this thread? Or is it just to stir the pot? It would be good to know the POINT.

 

[Nine_Two]

An atheist is an atheist and atheism cannot be discussed on this forum, according to forum rules.

A Jew is a Jew. This is not hard to figure out. Jesus was a Jew. His Mother Mary was a Jew. The Apostles of Jesus at least started their lives as Jews.

Is there a point to this thread? Or is it just to stir the pot? It would be good to know the POINT.

The point, I believe, is to inquire into how Jews themselves interpret the label of “Jew”, and how they apply it on an ethno-religious basis. Atheism seems to be an incidental to the question in order to give it a rhetorical setting, rather than an make it an actual topic for discussion.

Mardukm can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The point, I believe, is to inquire into how Jews themselves interpret the label of “Jew”, and how they apply it on an ethno-religious basis. Atheism seems to be an incidental to the question in order to give it a rhetorical setting, rather than an make it an actual topic for discussion.

Mardukm can correct me if I’m wrong.

That may be.

But according forum rules, Atheism is not a topic for discussion. I only note that because perhaps some posters may not be aware of the prohibition.

 

[Auriel]

You will likley receive many different answers to this question from within the Jewish community. I am a jewish believer/Catholic raised in the Jewish faith who became Christian/Catholic as an adult.

Thanks Robbinson. I was curious myself.

I know Russians Jews who have asked the same question. I think Communism may have had something to do with it though. Some never knew until older that they were Jewish.

Then again like you said, I hear a whole variety of opinions from Jewish people who were raised in a very religious home.

Kind of like when a person asks what a Baptist believes. Most do not know realize that there are up to 300 different branches of Baptist. LOL!

 

[Answersplease]

Re: A question for Jewish members

**The title has the designation “Jewish” in it and says “A question for Jewish members”,
so which people are ones who get to decide who is Jewish and who is not:

1. The Atheists who still consider themselves to be Jews genetically.
2. The Messianic Jews.
3. The Catholics who converted to Judaism and at least one prominent one claims to be a “perfected” Jew.
4. Those that are spiritually Jews as some Christians claim to be.

OR

1. Does the designation only apply to the pratitioners of some form of modern Judaism and are also genetically Jewish.

If the designation “Jewish” in the title only refers to the last category (5),

WHY do they get to decide who is Jewish and who is not.**

 

[mardukm]

The point, I believe, is to inquire into how Jews themselves interpret the label of “Jew”, and how they apply it on an ethno-religious basis. Atheism seems to be an incidental to the question in order to give it a rhetorical setting, rather than an make it an actual topic for discussion.

Mardukm can correct me if I’m wrong.

Thanks, brother. That was indeed my intention.

I appreciate everyone’s responses, especially Robbinson’s. In view of the biblical injunction “where two or three…” I hope one or two more Jewish members will participate in this thread and offer a response.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[David_F_1]

Hello,

According to Halakhah (Jewish law), which is followed stictly by Orthodox Jews, a Jew is either the child of a Jewish mother or a proselyte converted according to the standards of Jewish law.

Under Jewish law, a Jew is always Jewish, even if he breaks Jewish law (i.e. by not keeping the Sabbath). If he became a Christian, an orthodox rabbi would still consider him Jewish, but in a state of serious sin.

(Converting to Christianity does make a Jew ineligible to emmigrate to Israel–but that’s a matter of Israeli law.)

David

 

[Wesley7]

They are human beings just like the rest of us.

 

[mardukm]

Dear David F,

Hello,

According to Halakhah (Jewish law), which is followed stictly by Orthodox Jews, a Jew is either the child of a Jewish mother or a proselyte converted according to the standards of Jewish law.

Under Jewish law, a Jew is always Jewish, even if he breaks Jewish law (i.e. by not keeping the Sabbath). If he became a Christian, an orthodox rabbi would still consider him Jewish, but in a state of serious sin.

(Converting to Christianity does make a Jew ineligible to emmigrate to Israel–but that’s a matter of Israeli law.)

David

Thank you for your response!

The intent of my question is a bit different from what you answered. You mentioned that a Jew is still a Jew according to Orthodox Jewish standards even if he breaks the Law. But I am not talking about merely breaking the Law. I’m talking about the apostasy of not believing in God at all.

Hence, would a Jew who is an atheist (who denies everything that the Jewish Faith teaches - not just someone who breaks the Law) still be considered a Jew? I guess I should specify - since you brought it up - according to the Orthodox Jewish perspective.

Thank you for your response ahead of time. I am looking forward to it.

Blessings

 

[David_F_1]

Dear David F,

Thank you for your response!

The intent of my question is a bit different from what you answered. You mentioned that a Jew is still a Jew according to Orthodox Jewish standards even if he breaks the Law. But I am not talking about merely breaking the Law. I’m talking about the apostasy of not believing in God at all.

Hence, would a Jew who is an atheist (who denies everything that the Jewish Faith teaches - not just someone who breaks the Law) still be considered a Jew? I guess I should specify - since you brought it up - according to the Orthodox Jewish perspective.

Thank you for your response ahead of time. I am looking forward to it.

Blessings

Hi Mardukm,

Yes, traditionally, Jewishness is something inherent in the person himself. That person may be lax in observance, a heretic, an apostate, or even not know he is Jewish (!) but will still be a Jew.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hello,

According to Halakhah (Jewish law), which is followed stictly by Orthodox Jews, a Jew is either the child of a Jewish mother or a proselyte converted according to the standards of Jewish law.

Under Jewish law, a Jew is always Jewish, even if he breaks Jewish law (i.e. by not keeping the Sabbath). If he became a Christian, an orthodox rabbi would still consider him Jewish, but in a state of serious sin.

(Converting to Christianity does make a Jew ineligible to emmigrate to Israel–but that’s a matter of Israeli law.)

David

Some Jewish persons I know are recognizing children of a Jewish father, to enlarge the “tribe” as they put it. I realize that historically referencing the mother has a certain biological certainty attached to it, these days, the father can also be determined. I applaud this development even if it is not widespread or even doctrinal.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Marduk,

You may not be aware of it, but the discussion of atheism is forbidden on this forum. I counsel you to stop asking questions about atheists of any kind.

God Bless!

 

[mardukm]

Marduk,

You may not be aware of it, but the discussion of atheism is forbidden on this forum. I counsel you to stop asking questions about atheists of any kind.

God Bless!

Thank you for your concern, but I don’t believe that forum rule applies to the discussion here. Anyone is free to report the matter.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Hi Mardukm,

Yes, traditionally, Jewishness is something inherent in the person himself. That person may be lax in observance, a heretic, an apostate, or even not know he is Jewish (!) but will still be a Jew.

Thank you for the responses.

So a convert to Judaism cannot really be a true Jew?

I read somewhere that Orthodox Judaism does not accept converts? It mentioned that there was a split in the ranks over the matter. I don’t recall if that resulted in an actual schism, or if there are elements in Orthodox Judaism that do accept converts.

Blessings

 

[David_F_1]

Some Jewish persons I know are recognizing children of a Jewish father, to enlarge the “tribe” as they put it. I realize that historically referencing the mother has a certain biological certainty attached to it, these days, the father can also be determined. I applaud this development even if it is not widespread or even doctrinal.

Right. The Reform Jewish movement decided to recognize patrilinial descent in 1983. It didn’t really broaden the split between the orthodox and reform, since the orthodox have considered Reform heretical or “almost-Protestant” since the 19th century!

Thank you for the responses.

So a convert to Judaism cannot really be a true Jew?

I read somewhere that Orthodox Judaism does not accept converts? It mentioned that there was a split in the ranks over the matter. I don’t recall if that resulted in an actual schism, or if there are elements in Orthodox Judaism that do accept converts.

Blessings

Ahh, here’s where it gets tricky. According to orthodox Jewish Law, converts can be accepted, and a convert is thereafter as Jewish as anyone else. In practice, conversion seems to be extremely difficult.

The Conservative and especially the Reform movements are much more liberal about accepting converts. A few of the members at my own reform synagogue just converted in the past year.

David

 

[mardukm]

Dear David,

Ahh, here’s where it gets tricky. According to orthodox Jewish Law, converts can be accepted, and a convert is thereafter as Jewish as anyone else. In practice, conversion seems to be extremely difficult.

The Conservative and especially the Reform movements are much more liberal about accepting converts. A few of the members at my own reform synagogue just converted in the past year.

Again, thank you for your response.

It sounds confusing. I mean, on the one hand, it seems that Jewishness is only a matter of the flesh since an apostate (or athiest) Jew retains his Jewishness. On the other hand, it seems it is a matter of the spirit since a person can become Jewish by conversion.

I do have a last question which would resolve the issues going on in my mind, depending on the answer:

If someone who became Jewish by conversion (i.e., not a Jew according to ancestry) afterwards apostasizes, is that person still a Jew according to Orthodox Jewish law? I mean, since Jews according to the flesh are still Jewish despite apostasy, what about Jews by conversion?

Blessings