Thanks for quoting from the DR. As a Catholic, I appreciate your effort to quote from a text that I trust.
I want to return the favor by sticking to the New World Translation, okay? As you know, it’s available in full here:
watchtower.org/bible/toc.htm
Dan:
OK, but you skipped my argument and now only quote from verse 6. Let’s fix that.
Hebrews 1:4-5 (NWT)
NWT Hebrews 1:4 So he has **become **better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. 5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”?
Randy Carson
Hebrews 1:6-9 (NWT)
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” 7 Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.” 8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”
Dan:
First of all you cut out the most important part of my argument… the part that refutes you
Note the word “become” above? The DR says made. The fact that the Son BECAME (ie was made) better than the angels does not help your point that the Son was never an angel. How did he become better than the angels?
Lets look at the first three verses:
NWT Hebrews 1:1
God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his]] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.
Then the next verse four:
NWT Hebrews 1:4
**So **he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
Note the word “So”? That word is a correlative adjective that points to the previous verse for comparison. The activities include both things he did before he was made flesh and therefore the partners or fellows must be angels.
He became better than the angels. What was he before? An angel of course, one who ministers to God but now he is the King!
Randy Carson
Hmmm…it seems v. 9 is saying that the angels may have been Jesus’* partners*, but that is not quite the same thing as saying that Jesus is an angel, is it?
Dan:
Now that we have the whole story, yes. Yes indeed! Thanks for understanding that the angels were Jesus’ partners before he became better than them. The word partner is used in the NWT and Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon (BDAG) indicates that this word was used of business partners. He was merely an angel before he was resurrected to heaven and then he was King.
Randy Carson
Moreover, doesn’t v. 8 suggest that Jehovah God calls the son “God”?
Dan:
NWT Hebrews 1:8
But with reference to the Son: "God is your throne forever and ever, and [the]] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
I don’t see how, particularly if you are using the NWT. To say that God is your throne in a quote from Ps 45:6-7 which was said of a Hebrew King indicates that both the Hebrew King (eg Solomon) and the Son of God rule by God’s authority.
Randy Carson
Dan, I appreciate your help in understanding these things.
Dan:
No problem.
