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majick275
Guest
really? when did Thomas Monson ever claim this? Gordon b hinkley certainly didn’t claim this.
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ParkerD
Guest
Stephen,
There is a fairly detailed discussion going on in one of the other threads about LDS doctrine (the thread about the Trinity), that answers your question. Briefly, in the King Follett Sermon, Joseph Smith said that the Father had lived on an earth, like Jesus lived on this earth. Joseph Smith quoted from the book of John to provide the scriptural basis for his teaching on this subject.
But one thing I should point out is that to intellectually try and talk about this is going at it the wrong way. We really have to understand what Paul wrote to the Corinthians, in 1 Cor. 2:7-14. The Spirit must reveal spiritual truths, or they will be viewed as “foolishness”.
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dianaiad
Guest
Why?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
No Christian has ever believed this. This is purely an invention of the 19th century, coming from JS & Co.
You used how God appears, in order to communicate with man as evidence of a physical body. Now, you are saying this is not evidence.
Sure is.
And here we have why Mormons are nt Christian.
Yes, this shows very well how you understand what God has revealed. God is horrible and rubbish. Yes. keep it up. Hell awaits.
Is this something that you think I believe?
Yes, this is true. You should study the truth and repent of your blasphemies.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
As to this, you were speaking of the Father in your previous posts, were you not? God the Father is Spirit.
I hope you know that all Christians understand Jesus is God Incarnate, and yes, He does have a spirit.
Stephen168
New member
Is the King Follet Sermon doctrine?
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Scriptorian
Guest
I don’t know. Do you have a guess?
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Scriptorian
Guest
In comparison to Catholic history, 1820 would be recently. In the spring of that year, Joseph Smith received a vision of the Father and the Son in response to his humble prayer. During that visitation Joseph talked with God face to face and was instructed concerning the mysteries of God that had been hidden for centuries.
While we do not know the length of the exchange, in mere minutes, Joseph would have seen and learned enough to disprove all of the false notions of Christianity concerning the nature of God in one glorious theophany.
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Scriptorian
Guest
Yes, I was speaking of the Father. God is Spirit as much as Jesus or you and I are Spirit. That does not mean he does not have a body:
Also, how does this prove that Jesus is not the exact spiritual and physical image of his father?
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Scriptorian
Guest
It is not canon, but I think it is safe to say that it is accepted by the church as doctrine. It was written second hand, so there may be some transcription errors. But I think the doctrine in the document has remained intact.
How is that for a diplomatic answer…?
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Scriptorian
Guest
Will you quote for me the doctrine of the Trinity for me? I haven’t read it in a long time and could probably do with a refresher.
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PaulDupre
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Who resurrected him?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
from the catechism
** IN BRIEF **
**261 **261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
262 The Incarnation of God’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.
263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (*Jn *14:26) and by the Son “from the Father” (*Jn *15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. “With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified” (Nicene Creed).
264 “The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son” (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).
265 By the grace of Baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).
266 “Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).
267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son’s Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Stephen168
New member
Never; to believe otherwise is irrational.
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ParkerD
Guest
Stephen,
'Hope you are doing well. No, it is not doctrine, but it certainly is quoted by people who are ridiculing LDS beliefs. A small part of it was quoted this year in a new publication containing the teachings of Joseph Smith, for study in LDS Melchizedek priesthood quorums and in Relief Society classes.
Joseph Smith said he was showing from the Bible what Jesus told the Jews. The doctrine of the Bible is thus contained in the King Follett Sermon. Jesus was speaking far more literally than Christianity generally acknowledges.
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ParkerD
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Paul,
'Hope you have had a good day.
The Father knew how to resurrect Himself, just as Christ knew how to resurrect Himself. Christ laid down His life of Himself, and took it up again. He also “doeth nothing but what He seeth the Father doeth.” They had power over death because of their omniscience and omnipotence and because of their perfect faith. They didn’t need to learn how to do it because they knew how to do it.
We are different, vastly so. We need Christ to give us access to our personal resurrection, as well as the knowledge that will be necessary for how to be resurrected with a physical body.
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amontoya
Guest
This seems oddly similar to new age beliefs about ascended masters that can teach you to progress to their level. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you mean by this.
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ParkerD
Guest
Amontoya,
I most certainly alluded to something I know very little about, so by quoting the following from a talk by President Spencer W Kimball in April 1977, I admit I don’t know any more than what is alluded to here:
"President Brigham Young, the second president of this dispensation, said: “It is supposed by this people that we have all the ordinances in our possession for life and salvation, and exaltation, and that we are administering in those ordinances. This is not the case. We are in possession of all the ordinances that can be administered in the flesh; but there are other ordinances and administrations that must be administered beyond this world. I know you would like to ask what they are. I will mention one. We have not, neither can we receive here, the ordinance and the keys of resurrection.” (Journal of Discourses, 15:137.)
Do we have the keys of resurrection? Could you return to the earth as ones who would never again die—your own parents, your grandparents, your ancestors? I buried my mother when I was eleven, my father when I was in my early twenties. I have missed my parents much. If I had the power of resurrection as did the Savior of the world, I would have been tempted to try to have kept them longer. I have been called to speak in numerous funerals for people whom I have known, people whom I have loved, and people whom I have saved and held on to in a limited way. We do not know of anyone who can resurrect the dead as did Jesus the Christ when he came back to mortality.
“[The keys] will be given to those who have passed off this stage of action and have received their bodies again. … They will be ordained, by those who hold the keys of the resurrection, to go forth and resurrect the Saints, just as we receive the ordinance of baptism then receive the keys of authority to baptize others for the remission of their sins. This is one of the ordinances we can not receive here [on the earth], and there are many more.” (JD, 15:137.)
Since I believe that all miracles are going to be understood scientifically some day when perfect science is understood, then it seems logical to me that we are going to understand the miracle of both the process of resurrection and and the power and authority by which resurrections will be performed through the authority of Jesus Christ. That is what I was alluding to, but I probably should have remained silent about it here.
We talked about the “law of restoration” in my Gospel Essentials class a few weeks ago, in which I led the class. The resurrection will be a restoration of our physical body (perfect in that it can never again die). Christ’s atonement enables that restoration, and also enables the resurrection to be into the kind of body that matches our spiritual worthiness. This is described briefly in Doctrine and Covenants 88:
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
Even in this life, we find that as a person repents and receives the spiritual renewal that comes from repentance through the atonement of Christ, our body can be reinvigorated. The person who had an addiction can be reinvigorated to no longer feel drawn to and burdened by that addiction, and their body can feel completely healed and completely whole. The person who may have had a physical or emotional illness due to their deep emotional turmoil or a physical sin, can be healed through Christ, and through that individual’s acts of forgiving others, forgiving themselves, and feeling both the love and the power of Jesus Christ to enliven the cells of their physical body including their mind.
The resurrection will be a restoration. This is why repentance is so important. Our body will remember every act we have ever done, unless we have had the memory of sins erased through our repentance and through the atonement of Christ who blotted out our sins by taking them upon Himself.
I might as well mention here that one of the reasons baptism of the living and “baptism for the dead” in LDS temples are so important is for the very cleansing process of the atonement that I just mentioned. This is a very significant reason that the LDS believe baptism should be by immersion–because our entire body needs the cleansing effects of baptism, the cleansing renewal of Christ’s atonement through our repentance and forgiveness being energized and recognized by the cells in our physical body and by the cells in the physical body that will come forth in our personal resurrection.
All of the above is what I was alluding to.
Stephen168
New member
I’m not surprisedIt was written second hand, so there may be some transcription errors. But I think the doctrine in the document has remained intact.
How is that for a diplomatic answer…?
Stephen168
New member
I believe the results of this story prove it false. A series of theological ideas when put together create an irrational mess.
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