A Question for LDS

[Koopa]

Rebecca,
Perhaps you had a seminary teacher who taught poorly. Jesus was Jehovah in pre-mortal life and in the history of our world up until He was born of Mary. He is the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, fully God. This doctrine is very clear in the LDS church.

I’d have to disagree. The following is from “The Life and Teaching of Jesus and His Apostles,” a Mormon theology instruction booklet made by the LDS church to aid students in their studies.

“She, heavy with child, traveled
all that distance on mule-back, guarded and protected
as one about to give birth to a half-Deity. No other
man in the history of this world of ours has ever had
such an ancestry—God the Father on the one hand and
Mary the Virgin on the other.”

Half-Deity here. It seems to me that if Jesus was the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, fully God, he would not separate from, well, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, the full God. In that case Mormons would have no problem embracing the Christian concept of the Trinity.

 

[ParkerD]

When do you believe He was exalted?

Rebecca,
The term “exalted” to me is synonymous with the term, God. He was God the Son in the pre-mortal world for, I would guess, over a billion years. He condescended from His exalted station as God to be born of Mary, suffer the pains that a mortal body could suffer, then return to His Father with a resurrected body, having fulfilled the will of the Father because the Father loved all of His children and knew that only this One Only Begotten Son could live a sinless life, suffer the crucifixion and the atonement, and give all of His spirit children the example they (we) would need to become like them during the eons of eternity ahead of us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
The term “exalted” to me is synonymous with the term, God.

Yes, I know this. Yet, your church teaches Jesus was exalted after His death. How was He a God before being exalted?

He was God the Son in the pre-mortal world for, I would guess, over a billion years.

God is not Created. He has no beginning and no end.

He condescended from His exalted station as God to be born of Mary, suffer the pains that a mortal body could suffer, then return to His Father with a resurrected body,

What are the requirements for exaltation? And how did Jesus meet these requirements?

having fulfilled the will of the Father because the Father loved all of His children and knew that only this One Only Begotten Son could live a sinless life, suffer the crucifixion and the atonement, and give all of His spirit children the example they (we) would need to become like them during the eons of eternity ahead of us.

Well, of course Jesus is sinless. He IS God.

 

[ParkerD]

Is this taught in the standard works?

Stephen,
Yes, it is. Following are examples:

3 Nephi 11:14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

1 Nephi 19:10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.

Doctrine & Covenants 38:1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made;

D & C 110:3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

 

[ParkerD]

I’d have to disagree. The following is from “The Life and Teaching of Jesus and His Apostles,” a Mormon theology instruction booklet made by the LDS church to aid students in their studies.

“She, heavy with child, traveled
all that distance on mule-back, guarded and protected
as one about to give birth to a half-Deity. No other
man in the history of this world of ours has ever had
such an ancestry—God the Father on the one hand and
Mary the Virgin on the other.”

Half-Deity here. It seems to me that if Jesus was the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, fully God, he would not separate from, well, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, the full God. In that case Mormons would have no problem embracing the Christian concept of the Trinity.

Koopa,
I disagree with the person who wrote the passage in that particular manual. It is a non-doctrinal statement. It is muddled theology, and did not belong in a seminary text. Every piece of writing in the LDS church teaching materials is not evaluated and agreed upon by the entire quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency, so it can contain opinions–good efforts, usually, but in this case a poor effort to represent LDS beliefs.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I know this. Yet, your church teaches Jesus was exalted after His death. How was He a God before being exalted?

God is not Created. He has no beginning and no end.

What are the requirements for exaltation? And how did Jesus meet these requirements?

Well, of course Jesus is sinless. He IS God.

Rebecca,
Jesus condescended below all things. See this passage from the Book of Mormon:
1 Nephi 11:24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.
25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.
26 And the angel said unto me again: Look and behold the condescension of God!
27 And I looked and beheld the Redeemer of the world, of whom my father had spoken; and I also beheld the prophet who should prepare the way before him. And the Lamb of God went forth and was baptized of him; and after he was baptized, I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove.
28 And I beheld that he went forth ministering unto the people, in power and great glory;

There is no scriptural passage that says Jesus was exalted after His resurrection. He returned to His exalted station with God the Father. He was already an exalted Being, God the Son.

He was God because He was omnipotent. He was God because He was all-loving. He was God because He created this earth. He was fully God, and He became God with us and dwelt among us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Koopa,
I disagree with the person who wrote the passage in that particular manual. It is a non-doctrinal statement. It is muddled theology, and did not belong in a seminary text. Every piece of writing in the LDS church teaching materials is not evaluated and agreed upon by the entire quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency, so it can contain opinions–good efforts, usually, but in this case a poor effort to represent LDS beliefs.

I don’t know how you trust your children to this.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is no scriptural passage that says Jesus was exalted after His resurrection. He returned to His exalted station with God the Father. He was already an exalted Being, God the Son.

Doesn’t exaltation require a body?

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t know how you trust your children to this.

Rebecca,
That’s one important reason why we are to discuss the gospel and the scriptures in our homes, to help find out if they are hearing “muddled theology.” (Even people with good intentions can make mistakes, no?)

 

[ParkerD]

Doesn’t exaltation require a body?

Rebecca,
Exaltation is synonymous with “eternal life”, and according to D & C 19 “eternal life” is synonymous with “God’s life”. Christ was God in pre-mortal life. He enjoyed God’s life. He descended from His exalted station to come to earth.

We are different than Christ. We have to go through this mortal experience in order to qualify to become joint-heirs with Him who is the natural Heir, the One deserving heir. That is what His grace is all about. We have to be resurrected because our body must change to a state of perfection whereas we are now so very imperfect. He was not imperfect in any sense of the word.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
That’s one important reason why we are to discuss the gospel and the scriptures in our homes, to help find out if they are hearing “muddled theology.” (Even people with good intentions can make mistakes, no?)

Mormons teach the same thing in their homes.

Goes back to the fact that your Church has taught “muddled theology”, and, there is no orthodoxy in Mormonism.

Are you a convert to Mormonism?

 

[ParkerD]

Mormons teach the same thing in their homes.

Goes back to the fact that your Church has taught “muddled theology”, and, there is no orthodoxy in Mormonism.

Are you a convert to Mormonism?

Rebecca,
We don’t use the term “orthodoxy.” Evidently, you were taught “muddled theology” when you belonged. I am a fourth generation LDS, but have read the scriptures many times, so I don’t have to rely on what sometimes end up being incomplete or inadequate explanations. I am comfortable with that. We are encouraged to search the scriptures ourselves. I personally love doing that.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
We don’t use the term “orthodoxy.” Evidently, you were taught “muddled theology” when you belonged. I am a fourth generation LDS, but have read the scriptures many times, so I don’t have to rely on what sometimes end up being incomplete or inadequate explanations. I am comfortable with that. We are encouraged to search the scriptures ourselves. I personally love doing that.

Yes, I know, you have no orthodoxy.

I like to read the scriptures myself. I especially like St. John.

I was taught what I was taught. I started to question the sanity of it when I was young, 15 or 16 yrs old. None of it made any sense to me, including scriptures. I think it is how you interpret them. And the D&C…good grief. Makes me want to pull my fingernails out. I’d sit alone in my bedroom and read my BoM and pray, and get nothing. Absolutely, blank white wall, nothing.

I studied Mormonism again. I thought maybe I could make more sense of it as an adult. Didn’t happen. When I studied Catholicism, I made comparisons. The interpretation of scripture was a huge eye opener for me. And all of the sudden, everything made sense.

Someone told me this is called “illumination”, a gift from God. i believe this.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I know, you have no orthodoxy.

I like to read the scriptures myself. I especially like St. John.

I was taught what I was taught. I started to question the sanity of it when I was young, 15 or 16 yrs old. None of it made any sense to me, including scriptures. I think it is how you interpret them. And the D&C…good grief. Makes me want to pull my fingernails out. I’d sit alone in my bedroom and read my BoM and pray, and get nothing. Absolutely, blank white wall, nothing.

I studied Mormonism again. I thought maybe I could make more sense of it as an adult. Didn’t happen. When I studied Catholicism, I made comparisons. The interpretation of scripture was a huge eye opener for me. And all of the sudden, everything made sense.

Someone told me this is called “illumination”, a gift from God. I believe this.

Rebecca,
It sounds to me like you had good reason to join Catholicism, and I’m sure you are doing good things with it. It gave you the illumination you were seeking. Perhaps you needed to be where you’re at, for reasons only you would know. It is not a case of good/bad. It is a case of good/good (although you can come across fairly strident here, but it sounds like you felt pretty disappointed when you studied LDS doctrine, so that would be part of your reaction to it now). Elder Orson F Whitney talked about there being a great work to do by many religious faiths, consistent with God’s purposes.

I hope you’ll read Isaiah again, and Hosea. Those prophets saw our day. "Glad you love the Book of John. So do I. I wish you all the best, sincerely.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
It sounds to me like you had good reason to join Catholicism, and I’m sure you are doing good things with it. It gave you the illumination you were seeking. Perhaps you needed to be where you’re at, for reasons only you would know. It is not a case of good/bad. It is a case of good/good (although you can come across fairly strident here, but it sounds like you felt pretty disappointed when you studied LDS doctrine, so that would be part of your reaction to it now). Elder Orson F Whitney talked about there being a great work to do by many religious faiths, consistent with God’s purposes.

I hope you’ll read Isaiah again, and Hosea. Those prophets saw our day. "Glad you love the Book of John. So do I. I wish you all the best, sincerely.

Thanks.

Disappointed? More like incredibly Angry at discovering the quantity and depth of lies I had been taught, since the day I was born. Starting with, Who God Is. I don’t have that Anger any longer, so I think I make progress.

Strident though, is how I write. People take offense when I don’t mean it. Like I need more smiley flowers or something.:curtsey:I tend to just say what I want to say, and not try to sugar coat. I think it is more honest, but apparently, I need to add charity to honesty. I’m a workin’ on it.

That being said, I don’t share your relativistic views about Truth. There is only one Truth. I think you work pretty dang hard at pulling people from the truth, to a pit of lies.

I do see, and have experienced though, that God can turn all things to Good.

 

[reff]

As a biochem and molecular bio student, I find this talk about God DNA hilarious.

Mention the letters DNA, and it’s gone completely over my head.

 

[ParkerD]

Rebecca,
It sounds to me like you had good reason to join Catholicism, and I’m sure you are doing good things with it. It gave you the illumination you were seeking. Perhaps you needed to be where you’re at, for reasons only you would know. It is not a case of good/bad. It is a case of good/good (although you can come across fairly strident here, but it sounds like you felt pretty disappointed when you studied LDS doctrine, so that would be part of your reaction to it now). Elder Orson F Whitney talked about there being a great work to do by many religious faiths, consistent with God’s purposes.

I hope you’ll read Isaiah again, and Hosea. Those prophets saw our day. "Glad you love the Book of John. So do I. I wish you all the best, sincerely.

Rebecca,
The system has quoted me instead of quoting you, but here goes:
My prior post was giving you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions in the praying that you did when you got a “blank white wall” as the answer.

It is completely evident that you had a lot of bitterness in your heart each time you “prayed”. You have written about your anger. One with a lot of anger and a lot of bitterness would have to deal with those issues before one could expect any answer from God. Not to mention the pride issue, which is common for youth and adults (self included) to struggle with…

The non-answer you received is completely consistent with the New Testament. You received the answer you deep-down wanted–justification for your bitterness. When that turned to something more than bitterness, then it would be putting the cart before the horse for God to answer any such prayer. We have to have a change of heart first, not after. We’re supposed to “overcome” evil with good, not react to however we feel we have been mistreated in life. Christ didn’t react to the Pharisees by becoming bitter. Since you have said He had perfect love, He spoke to them with love in His heart for them, even though He spoke forthrightly.

You said I use relativism in my approach, but I will say more directly that you have as much truth as God allows you to have because you want only that level of truth you are willing to live by. If you had sincerely studied Mormonism, you would have understood this and your prayers would have been completely different. You would have wanted to “cleanse the inner vessel” first. So enjoy what you have, and good luck with working on the inner process that is far more important than the outer process. Please don’t be mad at my pointing all this out.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I know, you have no orthodoxy.

I like to read the scriptures myself. I especially like St. John.

I was taught what I was taught. I started to question the sanity of it when I was young, 15 or 16 yrs old. None of it made any sense to me, including scriptures. I think it is how you interpret them. And the D&C…good grief. Makes me want to pull my fingernails out. I’d sit alone in my bedroom and read my BoM and pray, and get nothing. Absolutely, blank white wall, nothing.

I studied Mormonism again. I thought maybe I could make more sense of it as an adult. Didn’t happen. When I studied Catholicism, I made comparisons. The interpretation of scripture was a huge eye opener for me. And all of the sudden, everything made sense.

Someone told me this is called “illumination”, a gift from God. i believe this.

Rebecca,

My prior post was giving you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions in the praying that you did when you got a “blank white wall” as the answer.

It is completely evident that you had a lot of bitterness in your heart each time you “prayed”. You have written about your anger. One with a lot of anger and a lot of bitterness would have to deal with those issues before one could expect any answer from God. Not to mention the pride issue, which is common for youth and adults (self included) to struggle with…

The non-answer you received is completely consistent with the New Testament. You received the answer you deep-down wanted–justification for your bitterness. When that turned to something more than bitterness, then it would be putting the cart before the horse for God to answer any such prayer. We have to have a change of heart first, not after. We’re supposed to “overcome” evil with good, not react to however we feel we have been mistreated in life. Christ didn’t react to the Pharisees by becoming bitter. Since you have said He had perfect love, He spoke to them with love in His heart for them, even though He spoke forthrightly.

You said I use relativism in my approach, but I will say more directly that you have as much truth as God allows you to have because you want only that level of truth you are willing to live by. If you had sincerely studied Mormonism, you would have understood this and your prayers would have been completely different. You would have wanted to “cleanse the inner vessel” first. So enjoy what you have, and good luck with working on the inner process that is far more important than the outer process. Please don’t be mad at my pointing all this out.

 

[Stephen168]

Jesus was Jehovah in pre-mortal life and in the history of our world up until He was born of Mary. He is the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, fully God. This doctrine is very clear in the LDS church.

Is He God, Jesus or Jehovah?

 

[ParkerD]

Is He God, Jesus or Jehovah?

Stephen,
Why do you think the Jewish leaders said Jesus was speaking blasphemy? They understood that He was saying He was I AM, Jehovah; in other words, God.