A Question for Lutherans - One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

[EvangelCatholic]

To be Lutheran, one must adhere to the Augsburg Confession. Every pastor vows obedience at ordination. The Lutheran World Federation is the official partner in dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church; the LCMS did not participate in the last few historic sessions [some say they were not invited by Rome] and they did not sign the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. I believe the Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod were the only world-wide Lutheran bodies to reject the ecumenical accords with the Roman Catholic Church.

Some refer to themselves as so-called ‘confessional’ Lutherans [namely the LCMS & WELS] yet hardly adhere to the recovery of the one holy catholic and apostolic church by rejecting episcopacy and apostolic succession as strongly urged by the Catholic Church. Frequency of holy Communion is also much lower in these churches than the LWF including the ELCA; this is not confessional. These same conservative Lutherans forbid their pastors from praying with other Christians, including Catholics and don’t even use the term ‘Catholic’ in the creeds.

I read recently that the great Lutheran theologian, Jaroslav Pelikan [formerly of the LCMS and then the ELCA] left Lutheranism for the Orthodox Church stating that the Missouri Synod was becoming “Baptist” and the ELCA was becoming “Methodist”.

 

[mjwise]

If this seems baffling what about ME? I was raised in the Catholic Church. Years later I was received into the Episcopal Church. Every Sunday when I heard the words
catholic and apostolic I would cringe as I knew they laid claim to words that were exclusively Catholic. Of course the line of succession had been severed by Henry 8 and my pastors explanation that we use the small c rather than the capital C was another baffling explanation.

Henry VIII never severed the apostolic lineage. He would have been apoplectic at anyone calling him a Reformer or a Congregationalist! Anglicans would argue it was never severed.

Episcopalians and Anglicans are far from the only Christians to profess the Nicene and Apostles creed either. “catholic” in the creed did not mean allegiance to a certain bishop and that’s why it’s still not capitalized in the Roman Missal.

Along with that I was exasperated whenever anyone in our Episcopal Church laid claim to Catholic Saints before the Reformation but then switched to only Anglican /Episcopal pains post Reformation.

What approach would you have expected exactly?

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;11996674]To be Lutheran, one must adhere to the Augsburg Confession. Every pastor vows obedience at ordination. The Lutheran World Federation is the official partner in dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church;** the LCMS did not participate in the last few historic sessions [some say they were not invited by Rome**] and they did not sign the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. I believe the Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod were the only world-wide Lutheran bodies to reject the ecumenical accords with the Roman Catholic Church.**
You’ve said this twice now. What is your source? And are you excluding the US dialogue from your comment?

Some refer to themselves as so-called ‘confessional’ Lutherans [namely the LCMS & WELS] yet hardly adhere to the recovery of the one holy catholic and apostolic church by rejecting episcopacy and apostolic succession as strongly urged by the Catholic Church. Frequency of holy Communion is also much lower in these churches than the LWF including the ELCA; this is not confessional.

Again, a source that LCMS rejects apostolic succession.

These same conservative Lutherans forbid their pastors from praying with other Christians, including Catholics and don’t even use the term ‘Catholic’ in the creeds.

Two comments:
Our pastors are not forbidden to pray with others.
Does the ELCA use the term Holy Ghost anymore in the Creed? Why not? Because Holy Spirit means the same thing. How about “the quick and the dead”? Because the “living and the dead” means the same thing. How about "spake by the prophets? Holy Christian Church means the same thing, even though I don’t care for the usage.

I read recently that the great Lutheran theologian, Jaroslav Pelikan [formerly of the LCMS and then the ELCA] left Lutheranism for the Orthodox Church stating that the Missouri Synod was becoming “Baptist” and the ELCA was becoming “Methodist”.

A pox on both our houses.

Jon

 

[izzydizzydo]

Differences between the ELCA and Confessional bodies should be quite plain, even to an outside observer. Heck, dialogue has essentially ceased between Confessional bodies and the ELCA. Between the Confessional bodies, however, the differences are slight. But slight is enough for one Lutheran synod to call another synod to repentance and ceasing of error. We take fellowship seriously, just as the Orthodox.

I wasn’t aware that Lutherans still existed in Ukraine or western Russia - Lutherans were made extinct thanks to Soviet persecution. I know that there is a Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church on the opposite side of the continent, and it is in full fellowship with the LCMS.

Come on steido01 the differences between the Evangelical Lutheran Church and confessional bodies are QUITE PLAIN! really. Does the media really broadcast your news or scandals like the Roman Catholic Church. I think not.
.
Are you just plain ashamed of their so-called progressive changes. The ELCA has been ordaining woman for over 40 years but they are also ordaining openly homosexual preists endow one BISHOP too.

If I sound upset I am because I used to be an Episcopalian where people were as low key and as mute as you about this apostasy.

We of course all know about the scandalous things that have been done throughout our world wide church plus the lies the media broadcast daily. We fess up. How about you?

 

[izzydizzydo]

Differences between the ELCA and Confessional bodies should be quite plain, even to an outside observer. Heck, dialogue has essentially ceased between Confessional bodies and the ELCA. Between the Confessional bodies, however, the differences are slight. But slight is enough for one Lutheran synod to call another synod to repentance and ceasing of error. We take fellowship seriously, just as the Orthodox.

I wasn’t aware that Lutherans still existed in Ukraine or western Russia - Lutherans were made extinct thanks to Soviet persecution. I know that there is a Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church on the opposite side of the continent, and it is in full fellowship with the LCMS.

Come on steido01 the differences between the Evangelical Lutheran Church and confessional bodies are QUITE PLAIN! really. Does the media really broadcast your news or scandals like the Roman Catholic Church. I think not.
.
Are you just plain ashamed of their so-called progressive changes. The ELCA has been ordaining woman for over 40 years but they are also ordaining openly homosexual preists endow one BISHOP too.

If I sound upset I am because I used to be an Episcopalian where people were as low key and as mute as you about this apostasy.

We of course all know about the scandalous things that have been done throughout our world wide church plus the lies the media broadcast daily. We fess up. How about you?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You’ve said this twice now. What is your source? And are you excluding the US dialogue from your comment?

A pox on both our houses.

Jon

Jon,

I actually read on CAF that the LCMS was not involved in the last several Dialogues with the Roman Catholic Church because they were not invited. Perhaps when the JDDJ was signed in 1999 and rejected by the LCMS; that may have ended the relationship between them and Roman Catholics. I will research this issue. But the magnitude of this doctrinal agreement is considered one of the most significant ecumenical developments in over 100 years. Missouri Synod absence is troubling and reflective of their self-isolation from the larger Christian Church.

Regarding apostolic succession; to my knowledge only the LCMS/ WELC have not adopted this tradition within north American Lutheranism and seem to prefer a more congregation approach than episcopacy. Why?

I don’t think the argument that the LCMS uses ‘Christian’ instead of ‘Catholic’ because they are the same holds credibility any longer. It is a rejection of the word ‘Catholic’ contrary to the practice of nearly all Christians who profess the creeds [including Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Reformed, etc]. My knowledge of the LCMS and WELS is that there is still a resistance to the very Lutheran Confessions that uphold that Lutherans are Catholic.

 

[steido01]

Come on steido01 the differences between the Evangelical Lutheran Church and confessional bodies are QUITE PLAIN! really.

You don’t notice a difference between the LCMS and the ELCA? I’m not sure how I’ve offended you with this post?

Does the media really broadcast your news or scandals like the Roman Catholic Church. I think not.

Well, they sure did in NYC and Newtown, but that’s another thread. We’re a smaller body than yours, so naturally we have less scandal. I’m not into the whole “who’s-been-persecuted-more” debate. We are all, as Christians, in the crosshairs of the militant secularists.

Are you just plain ashamed of their so-called progressive changes. The ELCA has been ordaining woman for over 40 years but they are also ordaining openly homosexual preists endow one BISHOP too.

Of course I’m ashamed for them. I also hurt for the good Lutherans who remain in that non-Lutheran national body. My synod is, too. That’s why we do not share fellowship with them and our synod has joined other Lutheran bodies in stating that the ELCA -as a whole- is no longer an orthodox Lutheran body.

If I sound upset I am because I used to be an Episcopalian where people were as low key and as mute as you about this apostasy.

Stick around. You’ll see I’m anything but mute. I wish the ELCA would drop ‘Lutheran’ from its misleading moniker - but I wish even more that they would drop their sinful ways and return to orthodox Lutheranism.

We of course all know about the scandalous things that have been done throughout our world wide church plus the lies the media broadcast daily. We fess up. How about you?

I’m not sure where this accusation is coming from, but we do the same.

 

[steido01]

Allow me to educate you, EC. I pray that this time it holds in your memory - it would be unfortunate if you knowingly spread falsities against your neighbor.

I actually read on CAF that the LCMS was not involved in the last several Dialogues with the Roman Catholic Church because they were not invited.

The LCMS has taken part in ALL of the dialogues. Again: ALL. The LCMS was only an observer at Round X, but has resumed its status as a full participant for the upcoming Round XI.

Perhaps when the JDDJ was signed in 1999 and rejected by the LCMS; that may have ended the relationship between them and Roman Catholics. I will research this issue.

Hardly.

But the magnitude of this doctrinal agreement is considered one of the most significant ecumenical developments in over 100 years. Missouri Synod absence is troubling and reflective of their self-isolation from the larger Christian Church.

Sometimes it is best to do the right thing alone, than the wrong thing with others.

Regarding apostolic succession; to my knowledge only the LCMS/ WELC have not adopted this tradition within north American Lutheranism and seem to prefer a more congregation approach than episcopacy. Why?

Several other bodies use congregational/semi-congregational polity. Your body included, no matter whether you call your leaders bishops, presidents or superintendents, like the early Lutherans did. The Confessions that you claim to adhere to do not state that an episcopal style is necessary; only preferred.

I don’t think the argument that the LCMS uses ‘Christian’ instead of ‘Catholic’ because they are the same holds credibility any longer. It is a rejection of the word ‘Catholic’ contrary to the practice of nearly all Christians who profess the creeds [including Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Reformed, etc]. My knowledge of the LCMS and WELS is that there is still a resistance to the very Lutheran Confessions that uphold that Lutherans are Catholic.

That’s why the LCMS hymnal uses the word catholic? And why the congregation I attend uses the word each Sunday when we confess one of the three Creeds? :whacky:

EC, your posts are really beginning to show a willful ignorance of the actual world.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I think a Catholic walking into a Lutheran church will feel very much at home or uncomfortable. Yes, female clergy would likely mean an adjustment just like it was for Lutherans years ago. Ironically the most ‘catholic’ Lutheran churches especially in Europe are also the ones who have female priests/bishops. The Sunday Mass [and weekday services] is prayed in an identical manner as Roman Catholic churches. Here’s an example: youtube.com/watch?v=3P6JL9Y7M3o

Praise band celebrations and quasi-Protestant services are legitimate worship in Lutheranism but the practice suggests a different emphasis than what most Lutherans are accustom to. The LCMS seems to be the most involved in this type of worship. Their sister denomination, the Wisconsin Synod, tend to be the least ‘catholic’ of Lutherans in worship style and Eucharistic theology as it applies to weekly Masses.

 

[izzydizzydo]

Steido01,

My last sentence wasn’t an accusation aimed at you. It was a poorly worded sentence where I admitted my own Catholic Churches scandals and media twisted statements.

I for one was quite impressed by your Missouri Synod strong stand 10 or so years ago. Iearned about it from a few disgruntled people who I did not agree with.

As you have probably noticed I took a very strong position when the progressive contingent took my former church down.

I am sorry I lashed out at you,

Izzydizzydo

 

[GKC]

Henry VIII never severed the apostolic lineage. He would have been apoplectic at anyone calling him a Reformer or a Congregationalist! Anglicans would argue it was never severed.

Episcopalians and Anglicans are far from the only Christians to profess the Nicene and Apostles creed either. “catholic” in the creed did not mean allegiance to a certain bishop and that’s why it’s still not capitalized in the Roman Missal.

What approach would you have expected exactly?

Correct. Henry had nothing to do with the logic given in Apostolicae Curae, with respect to Anglican orders.

GKC

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I think a Catholic walking into a Lutheran church will feel very much at home or uncomfortable. Yes, female clergy would likely mean an adjustment just like it was for Lutherans years ago. Ironically the most ‘catholic’ Lutheran churches especially in Europe are also the ones who have female priests/bishops. The Sunday Mass [and weekday services] is prayed in an identical manner as Roman Catholic churches. Here’s an example: youtube.com/watch?v=3P6JL9Y7M3o

Praise band celebrations and quasi-Protestant services are legitimate worship in Lutheranism but the practice suggests a different emphasis than what most Lutherans are accustom to. The LCMS seems to be the most involved in this type of worship. Their sister denomination, the Wisconsin Synod, tend to be the least ‘catholic’ of Lutherans in worship style and Eucharistic theology as it applies to weekly Masses.

Their sister denomination, the Wisconsin Synod, tend to be the least ‘catholic’ of Lutherans in worship style and Eucharistic theology as it applies to weekly Masses.

How so? We worship liturgically and Sacramentally, same as all Lutherans regardless of denomination. Our Eucharistic theology is also the same as all other confessional Lutherans.

 

[christus_vincit]

I think a Catholic walking into a Lutheran church will feel very much at home or uncomfortable. Yes, female clergy would likely mean an adjustment just like it was for Lutherans years ago. Ironically the most ‘catholic’ Lutheran churches especially in Europe are also the ones who have female priests/bishops. The Sunday Mass [and weekday services] is prayed in an identical manner as Roman Catholic churches. Here’s an example: youtube.com/watch?v=3P6JL9Y7M3o

Why do you think any Catholic would feel at home when confronted with things like female clergy and a different theology of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? These issues conflict with Catholic doctrine, and could never be accepted. Yes, perhaps the exterior trappings are similar in some sense, and the Lutheran service may be prayed in a seemingly identical manner as a Catholic Mass, but a Catholic would tell you that what is taking place on the Lutheran altar isn’t what happens at a Catholic Mass.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

How so? We worship liturgically and Sacramentally, same as all Lutherans regardless of denomination. Our Eucharistic theology is also the same as all other confessional Lutherans.

The Lutheran Confessions proclaim that we celebrate Mass every Sunday and every holy day. If a parish does not provide for the basic sacramental needs of the faithful than it is not truly Lutheran, in my opinion. This is where I have major issues with Lutherans who still constrict the life-saving benefit of Christ’s forgiveness and eternal life. I am sure I can find an ELCA parish that restricts Mass to less than once a week but the synod bishop expects and strongly influences the congregation to be Lutheran and not Reformed in sacramental practice. For example, all parishes in my synod have weekly Eucharist.

The WELS follows congregational authority but there is no justification for the district president to allow if not condone limited Eucharist. The WELS does not welcome Lutherans from other synods/ diocese to holy Communion; that is almost blasphemy. But then to restrict the Holy Supper to twice a month and likely once a month in some parishes is to obstruct the Gospel. That is hardly Confessional.

The LCMS has many pastors who fully understand the mysteries of salvation and pray Mass weekly or daily in some parishes. But they are up against other LCMS pastors/ district presidents who seem to be totally out of sync with Lutheranism. Close communion and limited communion deny Christ; as much a heresy as those who deny the Virgin Birth [as I understand a few bishops in the Church of Sweden admit].

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Why do you think any Catholic would feel at home when confronted with things like female clergy and a different theology of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? These issues conflict with Catholic doctrine, and could never be accepted. Yes, perhaps the exterior trappings are similar in some sense, and the Lutheran service may be prayed in a seemingly identical manner as a Catholic Mass, but a Catholic would tell you that what is taking place on the Lutheran altar isn’t what happens at a Catholic Mass.

Lutheran and Catholic agree on the Real Presence, in case you didn’t know.

Catholics and Lutherans together understand that the communion with God mediated through word and sacrament leads to communion of the faithful among themselves. This takes concrete shape in the communion of the churches: the one holy catholic and apostolic church, the una sancta of the, creed is realized in the communio ecclesiarum as local, regional and universal communion, and so as church fellowship.
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int…urch3.html#3.4

1. The question of the reality of the presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord’s Supper is not a matter of controversy between Catholics and Lutherans. The Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue on the eucharist was able to state: »The Lutheran tradition affirms the Catholic tradition that the consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but rather
   by the power of the creative word are given as the body and blood of Christ. In this sense Lutherans also could occasionally speak, as does the Greek tradition, of a change« (Eucharist 51).50 Both Catholics and Lutherans »have in common a rejection of a spatial or natural manner of presence, and a rejection of an understanding of the sacrament as
   only commemorative or figurative« (Eucharist 16).51

 

[christus_vincit]

Lutheran and Catholic agree on the Real Presence, in case you didn’t know.

Catholics do not believe that Lutheran ministers have the power to act in *persona Christi *and make present the Eucharist. We believe only Catholic priests have that power because of their ordination.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Catholics do not believe that Lutheran ministers have the power to act in *persona Christi *and make present the Eucharist. We believe only Catholic priests have that power because of their ordination.

Yes, you are correct but Catholics recommend that Lutherans maintain apostolic succession and suggest that Lutherans can commune in Catholic churches in the same manner as Orthodox

1. A step in this direction was taken by Vatican II, which permitted limited Eucharistic sharing between Catholics and Orthodox,122 even though the latter do not normally accept (and even at times explicitly reject at least one or more of) the dogmas in question. The situation of the Orthodox and Lutherans, though different in many ways, is similar at least in the following: both find themselves for the most part unable to accept one or more of these teachings as part of the deposit of faith. If this inability on the part of the Orthodox does not preclude all Eucharistic sharing with Catholics, the same inability on the part of Lutherans should not of itself do so either. Lack of Christian faith would and should so preclude.

 

[christus_vincit]

Yes, you are correct but Catholics recommend that Lutherans maintain apostolic succession and suggest that Lutherans can commune in Catholic churches in the same manner as Orthodox

As far as I know, the position of the Catholic Church is that Lutherans did not maintain Apostolic Succession because their ordinations were not carried out by bishops, but rather priests who broke communion with Rome, as well as because the rite of ordination itself was changed by the reformers in a manner that invalidates those “ordained” by it.

That being said, while it is good that dialogue is going on, it is misleading to suggest that Lutherans are on equal footing as Catholics and Orthodox when it comes to Apostolic Succession, at least as far as Rome is concerned.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As far as I know, the position of the Catholic Church is that Lutherans did not maintain Apostolic Succession because their ordinations were not carried out by bishops, but rather priests who broke communion with Rome, as well as because the rite of ordination itself was changed by the reformers in a manner that invalidates those “ordained” by it.

That being said, while it is good that dialogue is going on, it is misleading to suggest that Lutherans are on equal footing as Catholics and Orthodox when it comes to Apostolic Succession.

The Roman Catholic Church has never questioned the validity of apostolic succession in the Lutheran Churches where the bishop/ archbishop followed Luther *. Here is a quote of Pope Benedict when the prefect on Doctrine of the Faith.

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.166

 

[EvangelCatholic]

More from the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue

1. The Roman Catholic Church has preserved the succession of episcopal consecrations; this succession was broken in continental Lutheranism, maintained in parts of Nordic Lutheranism, and has been reclaimed by the ELCA. What is the significance of either preserving or breaking this succession? That question must not be isolated and made to bear the entire weight of a judgment on a church’s ministry. Whether a particular minister or church serves the church’s apostolic mission does not depend only upon the presence of such a succession of episcopal consecrations, as if its absence would negate the apostolicity of the church’s teaching and mission.135 Recent ecumenical discussions of episcopacy and succession do not remove our former disagreements, but they do place them in a richer and more complex context in which judgments made exclusively on the basis of the presence or absence of a succession of consecrations are less possible.