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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Jon, I think you will find that “presbyter ordination” is the exception, not the norm in Lutheranism. As these photos show, most priests are ordained together by the bishop.
A Question for Lutherans - One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
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benjohnson
Guest
Indeed, the immediate issues of the Reformation are almost non-issues - there’s some problems with the office of the Pope still unresolved. But in the interim Catholics have developed new dogmas that are stumbling blocks.
If I understand correctly, Orthodox christians have similar issues with these modern Catholic dogmas - so it may not just a case of Lutherans moving the bar.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
More examples that the LCMS, who are in full communion fellowship with the Lutherans of Kenya and Russia [pictured below], yet does not reclaim episcopacy and AS. 
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christus_vincit
Guest
There is no such thing as “modern” dogma. The Church has simply solemnly defined in recent times that which it has held from the beginning. The Church doesn’t “invent” new doctrines. It defines that which has been revealed to us.
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benjohnson
Guest
If you’re trying to move us aways from presbyter ordination, showing us images of “Bishop” Eva Brunne isn’t going to help.
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benjohnson
Guest
That’s certainly the Catholic viewpoint.
But on a practical level , a good catholic could have personal reservations about the immaculate conception up until December 7th 1854.
On December 8th 1854 - that same Catholic was now destined to condemnation based on the bull Ineffabilis Deus:
“Hence, if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment;”
Don’t get me wrong - a good Lutheran has proclaims the immaculate conception. We just don’t think it correct to pronounce condemnation based off a lack of that belief, and we certainly don’t see any particular God-given change on December 8th 1854 to merit such drastic words.
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marywarfield
Guest
- The Immaculate Conception primarily goes to the
heart of the substance and nature of God: in other words how
much or little purity is tolerable in His Presence.
To say Lutherans are wishy washy on how dirty
a soul can be in Gods presence is not an overstatement.
In other words while kind of sort of believing only that
which is absolutely pure can be in Gods immediate
presence there is doubt and hopefully if we believe
hard enough God will tolerate any sort of filth. - Traditional Dogma is never defined as you incorrectly
suggest without the belief being expressed as a majority
belief for centuries already and having roots of evidence
in Apostolic times. Same for Assumption.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I don’t think your theology is shallow, rather I think you have two main emphases. Sola fide and Sola scriptura, around which the entire theology is interpreted. These form of the base of Lutheran theology whenever I hear a Lutheran speak. Sola scriptura in that you are fiercely loyal to scripture and want to ground nearly everything in it. That view has problems. Sola fide to the point where I have not heard a Lutheran exclaim you must change your life, you must devote yourself to God. Can a Lutheran even say that? (Yes I also know that you approve of Good works, but see it from the angle of Monergism instead of Synergy. These emphases are not based in the fathers, though certainty you can find fathers with those beliefs (maybe not monergism but I do not know) but rather from Luther.
I suppose the question is, can your church stand without regard to Luther, the Lutheran tradition and the bible alone? I don’t think so. There is a tradition which cannot be contradicted within the Lutheran church, despite claims to bible alone. I do not see how Lutheran’s can claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith (of Nicea) when they are so radically disconnected from the traditions before them.
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benjohnson
Guest
I’m surprised that our theology is so unknown - this is Lutheran theology 101.
"Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: ‘Ye were bought at a price’, and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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benjohnson
Guest
It’s a fair assessment that generally Lutherans have done a poor job of maintaining the old traditions. My only retort is that not all of them have done so poorly, and certainly have upheld the old faith.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
I think on the issue of the Immaculate Conception which Lutherans celebrate as the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary [September 8] and the Assumption [August 15] that we call St Mary, Mother of God or the Dormition of Mary are pious teachings that Luther maintained; they are not dogma that all must believe. I believe all Christians, including Orthodox, view these teachings in the same manner as the papal infalliability; not dogma.
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marywarfield
Guest
Yes exactly. Uncommitted. Dogma says we believe this
to be truth absolutely, worthy of belief, therefore we celebrate.
Celebrating that which you do not believe truth enough
to be dogma means you waste your time celebrating
that which is probably true but might be false.
Absurd.
The Assumption should not be treated like the Easter
Bunny and the IC like the Tooth Fairy.
I don’t totally believe there is a tooth fairy but I’ll
be missing out if I’m wrong so I’ll put a tooth under
my pillow just in case.
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benjohnson
Guest
From the Lutheran perspective, the immaculate conception and the assumption is true.
Just not “if you don’t believe this you cause damnation upon yourself” true.
As I understand it, before December 7th 1854 Catholics felt the same way about the IC.
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steido01
Guest
I would say we have even less emphases than you note: just faith alone. This is the simplified Gospel, is it not? The entire purpose of Christ’s coming. His death has atoned for all our sins and now our faith in Him has made us well; with His Grace we can, like the women at the well, get up and sin no more! Sola Scriptura, as high a regard for it as our church holds, is only a practice of the church that we maintain because we are generations removed from the Apostles and Christ. Sola Scriptura is not dogma, and we take the traditions of the church into legitimate consultation - why, just read our liturgies and rites!
Have you ever had the opportunity to hear one of our sermons, or read one of our hymns? In it you will find very clear Gospel, and very clear Law. Lutherans often refer to the ‘third use’ of the Law which commands us to do good works for Christ’s sake. It is (or ought to be) present in every sermon and most hymns. I would suggest reading C.F.W. Walther’s The Proper Distinction between Law and Gospel it is required reading for our seminarians.
We also put this thinking into practice. If a Lutheran is living a life of repeated public sin, they are not permitted to commune until they have made public Confession and received Holy Absolution. So, yes, Lutherans can and do say to the sinner, “You must change your life, you must devote yourself to God.” And by Grace through Faith, God makes it so.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I think you have not only failed to hold them, but dispense with alot of them altogether. Apostolic succession for one thing, the veneration of icons and sacred relics, monasticism and prayer to the saints. Orthodox, Catholics and orientals could be wrong on this, but I don’t think so. It’s more than just some loose cannon Lutheran churches, its the church as a whole.
Presbyter ordination does not need to be in quotes. It is attested to, along with apostolic succession, in the confessions as valid under divine law.
I am quite aware of the attempts among Lutherans to reclaim AS, and I applaud those efforts, but presbyter ordination is equally valid.
Jon
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marywarfield
Guest
No they didn’t and that is an insult to the
integrity of the Church. If they did it wouldn’t be dogma. Lol.
Dogma is not declared to force people to believe
something against their will. Dogma is declared because
over time it is an accepted fact already and is being
disputed by those outside the Church I.e. Orthodox
and Protestants.
All you are doing is wasting time celebrating something
you suspect is NOT fact and people should not
have to accept.
It’s the same diff as LDS. We say Christ is God and
you must believe that or be subject to damnation.
LDS and JW say hey Christ was a really fine GUY.
We believe in Him but not enough to stake our
lives on it. Haha.
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steido01
Guest
It needs to be clear that Lutherans are not iconoclasts. The Lutheran reformers rejected the iconoclasm of the 16th century.
A brief clip from LCMS president Matthew Harrison:
youtube.com/watch?v=lizfznY63Yk
Jon
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
You are not iconoclasts, but you reject Nicea 2 all the same.
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