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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Suggest you google Pope Francis on this issue and learn humility.
A Question for Lutherans - One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
- Status
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marywarfield
Guest
The Missouri Synod is it? you seem to be out numbered
by the ELCA.
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marywarfield
Guest
Give me a link that reflects he believes same sex
married partners should be Reverends in Lutheran
Churches and get back to me.
In my experience people who support scandalous
behavior by accusing the scandalized of not being
humble enough are exploding with pride.
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benjohnson
Guest
For the LCMS… lets just say we’re so old-school that for weddings in our church we don’t even allow the “Wedding March” from Richard Wagner’s opera Lohengrin because it’s has no Gospel in it.
To be fair, there are individual churches in the ELCA that are very confession - they say within the ELCA as a witness to Christ’s gospel among those that would twist the meaning of Christ’s message.
A simple test is to ask them about gay-marriage. A more detailed question would be to ask them if the Bible is the Word of God, or if the Bible contains the Word of God.
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marywarfield
Guest
Really? From Sola Scriptura to No Scriptura?
Hmm. So…maybe I’m dense but why are they called
Lutheran again???
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FathersKnowBest
Guest
Wait a minute …
You’re claiming the confessions as attesting to “presbyter ordination”?
Isn’t that a wee bit circular?
“I have authority because the document I wrote says I do”?
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FathersKnowBest
Guest
I disagree.
For years, I was in a “cell group” Bible study with LCMS Lutherans. They didn’t reject the h-c methods, and were certainly not fundamentalists.
And what position is that?
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
Isn’t this an oxymoronic phrase?
It attests to it because it was practiced by the Church before the Reformation.
cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=a&word=APOSTOLICSUCCESSION
Jon
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Erich
Guest
Wow, this thread has really taken off since I posted a few days ago!
And certainly it was to a visible, authoritative body that Christ declared, addressing its first earthly leader, “I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19). What good would it have done to bestow the keys upon a Church so formless as to defy any effort to identify it? Then, too, Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: “Refer it to the Church” (Matt. 18:17). He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are “the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house” (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).
…
Christ’s Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all - and, as a consequence, no authority at all - conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It’s almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn’t quite know what he was doing.
Or, as St. Augustine put it, “when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house.”
Only a visible, authoritative Church could have set in place the pillars that would support Christian belief and practice through the ages. To those who cry “Prove it!” here are a few examples:
1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.
2. The worldwide councils. Christianity’s doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an “invisible” group of bishops meet and deliberate.
3. The Lord’s day. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.
4. Christmas and Easter. The Bible nowhere mentions the word “Christmas” or the date for Christmas. The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was a decision of the Church. (The feast didn’t arise all by itself.) Much the same can be said for Easter as a feast separate from the other Sundays which commemorate the Resurrection. It was a visible Church, headed by a definitely locatable pope, that settled the dates of observance for the two key feasts.
5. The calendar. It is Christ’s visible Church, its reach extending into the secular realm, which has given us the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.
The Church is most definitely visible. St. Paul refers to the Church as the Body (not the Soul) of Christ in various passages. Bodies are visible, souls are invisible.
And certainly it was to a visible, authoritative body that Christ declared, addressing its first earthly leader, “I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19). What good would it have done to bestow the keys upon a Church so formless as to defy any effort to identify it? Then, too, Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: “Refer it to the Church” (Matt. 18:17). He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are “the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house” (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).
…
Christ’s Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all - and, as a consequence, no authority at all - conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It’s almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn’t quite know what he was doing.
Or, as St. Augustine put it, “when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house.”
Only a visible, authoritative Church could have set in place the pillars that would support Christian belief and practice through the ages. To those who cry “Prove it!” here are a few examples:
1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.
2. The worldwide councils. Christianity’s doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an “invisible” group of bishops meet and deliberate.
3. The Lord’s day. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.
4. Christmas and Easter. The Bible nowhere mentions the word “Christmas” or the date for Christmas. The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was a decision of the Church. (The feast didn’t arise all by itself.) Much the same can be said for Easter as a feast separate from the other Sundays which commemorate the Resurrection. It was a visible Church, headed by a definitely locatable pope, that settled the dates of observance for the two key feasts.
5. The calendar. It is Christ’s visible Church, its reach extending into the secular realm, which has given us the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.
The fallacy that the Pope teaches error has already been addressed, but I will add this. Lutherans disagree even among themselves about what Scripture is saying regarding marriage and holy orders:
- ELCA (distinguished from other Lutherans by female clergy, retaining some divorced pastors on their clergy rosters, and (since 2009) openly homosexual clergy)
- LCMS (no female or openly homosexual clergy)
- WELS (click here for major differences from LCMS and ELCA)
- LCMC (mostly, ELCA refugees dissatisfied with the ELCA’s liberal drift; grew from 31 congregations as charter members in 2001, to 225 congregations by Aug. 2009, to 800+ congregations today)
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steido01
Guest
Generally, this is the breakdown:
The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) and its member churches (including the ELCA and many of the various state churches of Europe) tend to be more liberal in their fruit salad of beliefs, while falling back on their high worship styles and use of Apostolic Succession to somehow validate their unorthodox, un-Lutheran and, in some cases, un-Christian belief.
More Confessional bodies like the LCMS, WELS, ELS, LCC, AALC, ELDONA, etc. still adhere to the Lutheran Confessions, proclaim Scripture to BE the Word of God (not simply ‘contain’ it, as if Scripture were some Gnostic riddle that required human feelings to extract an ever-shifting meaning) and tend to practice close/closed communion to keep the Sacrament from being profaned.
Of course, there are ‘rogue’ pastors and congregations who would perhaps fit better in the other group. This is a generality.
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Erich
Guest
The Bible is the Word of God… but it’s not the only Word of God (in fact, the Bible itself says so!)
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marywarfield
Guest
Huh. I don’t quite understand high worship style or Apostolic
Succession if there is no adherence to Scripture.
It sounds as if they function only on man made
traditions which must be why they reference Luther
so much. I imagine Luther must be rolling in his grave
over the human sexuality document.
Jesus have mercy. Holy Mary pray for us.
Oh Saints Alive! What is this link you gave me?
These are Lutherans too?
“Our mission is to embody and voice the prophetic wisdom and word of the Divine Feminine, to uplift the values of compassion, creativity and care for the earth and one another.* At herchurch, we create a sacred space for those who wish to worship outside the traditional Christian framework, both slightly outside and waaaaaaay outside.* We are fortunate to have pagans, non-theists, yogis, spiritual seekers of all sorts as well as Christians/Jews/Muslims and life-long Lutherans as members of our faith community.* Our purple church is home to a diversity of spiritual traditions and perspectives that are woven together to create a strong, stretchy fabric that provides everyone with ample room to grow.* We are committed to acts of justice and peace as we help shift the world view from domination systems to mending and caring for the web-of-life.”
Wow. The Bahai must adore these people.
Afraid unity among RC and Lutheran may just
be blowing in the wind, man. Ain’t never gonna happen
like this.
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marywarfield
Guest
Oh for heavens sakes! A Lutheran Goddess Rosary
and Drum Circle? You’ve got to be kidding me.
herchurch.org/
I thought Lutherans were totally against worshipping
Mary???
and Drum Circle? You’ve got to be kidding me.
herchurch.org/
I thought Lutherans were totally against worshipping
Mary???
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marywarfield
Guest
Ok I’m taking a break from this thread for a bit.
It’s just too terribly depressing.
It’s just too terribly depressing.
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steido01
Guest
Amen, amen, amen.
They think they are. Their practice and beliefs put their claims in question. What’s in a name?
Unity between the RCC and the liberal Lutherans will likely never happen. That’s why the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU - Ramn Catholics have acronyms too!
) has turned the more theological efforts toward Confessional Lutherans. The International Lutheran Council (somewhat of a Confessional counter to the LWF) voted unanimously to accept the offer of deeper dialogue with Rome. The first bits are already taking place in Canada. Pray they lead us closer to reunion.
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Novocastrian
Guest
This is an incredibly weak argument. It may have worked in Hippo Regius, but it doesn’t work now. If I asked you for directions to “the orthodox church”, where would you send me?
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Novocastrian
Guest
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GKC
Guest
- Status