A question for Mormons: Are women created in the image of God?

[Chris-WA]

“Angels are those beings who have been on an earth like this, and have passed through the same ordeals that we are now passing through…They are persons who have lived upon an earth, but did not magnify the Priesthood in that high degree that many others have done who have become Gods, even the sons of God. Human beings that pertain to this world, who do not magnify or are not capable of magnifying their high calling in the Priesthood and receive crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives, will also, when they again receive their bodies, become angels and will receive a glory” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 9:102).

How can anyone read stuff like this from Brigham Young or Joseph Smith and *still *believe them to be true prophets of God? As a Mormon I guess you either have to accept this nonsense and then put it away in a vault where you never think about it again or just claim that they were “speculating” when they gave their authoritative lessons to the church membership. The problem is that the prophets would not claim that they were merely “speculating,” but were actually teaching the truth! Does the LDS Church not teach that when the prophet speaks, he is teaching the truth? I guess when you’re convinced something is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, you’re willing to overlook just about anything, no matter how rediculous.

 

[why_me]

Maybe that’s what is meant in Gen1:26, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. He could have been addressing a goddess who participated in creation. Would that idea harmonize with Mormon theology?

I believe that mormons would claim that the we refers to heavenly father and Jesus Christ. Jesus had a hand in the creation which of course would stress that each (heavenly father and Jesus) are two distinct beings.

 

[why_me]

How can anyone read stuff like this from Brigham Young or Joseph Smith and *still *believe them to be true prophets of God? As a Mormon I guess you either have to accept this nonsense and then put it away in a vault where you never think about it again or just claim that they were “speculating” when they gave their authoritative lessons to the church membership. The problem is that the prophets would not claim that they were merely “speculating,” but were actually teaching the truth! Does the LDS Church not teach that when the prophet speaks, he is teaching the truth? I guess when you’re convinced something is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, you’re willing to overlook just about anything, no matter how rediculous.

Both Brigham and Joseph said much. Nothing wrong with that. At times they expressed opinions and at other times they expressed doctrine. All prophets have been mocked. JS and BY are no exception to the rule.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe that’s what is meant in Gen1:26, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. He could have been addressing a goddess who participated in creation. Would that idea harmonize with Mormon theology?

I was raised in the mormon church, and I was taught that a council of gods created the earth, that is, that God had help from other gods, and that is what the account in Genesis is referring to where it says “us”.

see mormon “scripture” here

Abraham 4

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

 

[Paul_G]

This is one scripture I was thinking of when I asked my initial question.

In light of Joseph Smith’s revelation that God has a male physical body, how do Mormons see the female human body, which is quite different from the male human body, as an image of God?[/qoute]

The question of this thread is, “Are women created in the image of God”. Zerinus offered the defining scripture which answers this.

There is a difference between bodily and physical image, the first, which I had in mind is, head arms, legs feet, torso, eyes nose mouth ears, etc. which both genders possess. The physical body, which I believe you are referring to, has all of the above characteristics and can be separated into genders with the differing physical attributes. The point you are trying to make has long been a feminist point of contention, but a serious pondering of the scripture will bring the true understanding of what is being taught…

From what you’ve bolded in your post I wonder, does an image of God contain both male and female?

 

[Chris-WA]

Both Brigham and Joseph said much. Nothing wrong with that. At times they expressed opinions and at other times they expressed doctrine. All prophets have been mocked. JS and BY are no exception to the rule.

I’m sorry why me, but I just can’t let you get away with this one. This excuse is used by Mormon apologists all the time. It’s used so much in fact, that we really need to give it it’s own name–let’s call it the “speculation defense.” It’s the defense Mormons use to excuse outrageous teachings by early Mormon prophets and apostles. Mormons use it when one of these guys teaches something so weird that even faithful Mormons can’t defend it. Knowing full well that to argue against said teachings would be to call into question the very validity of someone like Joseph Smith or Brigham Young as a true prophet, LDS choose a “safer” option–the speculation defense. The speculation defense allows the Mormon to sit on the fence between two sides of a controversial teaching given by one of their prophets. By not directly arguing against a prophet’s teaching, the Mormon doesn’t call into question the prophet’s validity. And by calling said teaching “speculation,” the Mormon doesn’t have to support the teaching either. It’s really a way of sliding around an issue rather than facing it directly. And it’s nonsense.

For the love of truth, I would ask all LDS to stop using the speculation defense. Please, please stop. We’ve been over this again and again and again. It doesn’t work. It may postpone having to directly deal with certain issues, but that’s all it does.

Why doesn’t it work? Simple. When Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, or any LDS prophet gives a sermon to the Mormon church, he is not “speculating.” If he was, he would tell you, so as not to confuse you as to what is true doctrine and what is merely his own speculation. Did Joseph and Brigham differentiate between the two? No. When you Mormons watch General Conference every six months and then go home, do you say to yourselves,“Boy, I really enjoyed President Monson’s speculation today.”? No, of course not. And neither did your ancestors in the church. When Joseph or Brigham spoke, they took it all as the word of God. It’s only in later times as these things are brought up that the Monday-morning quarterbacks say, “Hmm, that must have been Joseph just speculating, because what he said about xxxxxx doesn’t fit with what we believe.”

I beg all of you Mormons out there to abandon the speculation defense and deal more directly with these types of issues. Stop sitting on the fence. Choose a side and defend it.

 

[teancum79]

Ah so in your mind no one who has been a leader for the LDS church could has ever thought out loud, expressed ideas that they latter learned where not wholly correct or ever been misunderstood. That no one has ever lied about what they heard someone say?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ah so in your mind no one who has been a leader for the LDS church could has ever thought out loud, expressed ideas that they latter learned where not wholly correct or ever been misunderstood. That no one has ever lied about what they heard someone say?

Not when they are proclaiming themselves as a prophet, who claim to speak for God and not when all mormons believe this, completely and whole heartedly.

Tell me, did Smith lie in his own writings? Young in his own words?

 

[Paul_G]

There appears ot ba a serious lack of knowledge about LDS thought and culture. LDS have never limited our expression to a particular greed, or are of the “everything said must be believed” mentality. LDS are open to think and to express ideas without censure as long as the intention to express a personal thought and not meant to insight apostasy.

It is true that in recent years less of this type of expression is found, due to the critic of the Church hanging on every word in order to misrepresent what is said to further spread their particular propaganda and agenda. There are many things that are said, but you will find very little that is incorporated into essential doctrine of the church. You may jeer and criticize but this philosophy has held us in good stead over the years and will continue to do so.

It appears also there are those that don’t know much about Brigham Young either, I have read where he has talked about things, that I would not agree with, and said that they were his thoughts and no one was bound to accept them as doctrines.

Many of the Issues, so called, I have observed here have been artificially created - The subject of this thread case in point.

Paul

 

[teancum79]

Not when they are proclaiming themselves as a prophet, who claim to speak for God and not when all mormons believe this, completely and whole heartedly.

Tell me, did Smith lie in his own writings? Young in his own words?

Lie no, but they where not above the common human error. JS once misspelled a mans name on a revelation sadly the man took that as a sign that JS was not a prophet.

One must also consider what is meant. Christ is one recored for calming he would rebuild the jewish temple in 3 days. But we know he meant something else.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Many of the Issues, so called, I have observed here have been artificially created - The subject of this thread case in point.

Paul

It’s a reasonable question. If you can’t, or don’t want to answer it, just say so.

 

[Paul_G]

It’s a reasonable question. If you can’t, or don’t want to answer it, just say so.

The question was “if God has a male body, how can females be created in His image?”, and has been answered - the short version both men and women are created in the image of God which does not gender. The hang up has been the understanding of the term image. Again my answer is both male and female are created in the image of God. Gender attributes are not mentioned in the scriptures that teach on this subject. What is your understanding?

Paul

 

[zaffiroborant]

The question was “if God has a male body, how can females be created in His image?”, and has been answered - the short version both men and women are created in the image of God which does not gender. The hang up has been the understanding of the term image. Again my answer is both male and female are created in the image of God. Gender attributes are not mentioned in the scriptures that teach on this subject. What is your understanding?

Paul

I would guess the confusion/misunderstanding and the reason for the question is that LDS do apply gender attributes to God the Father while others don’t.

LDS theology places a great deal of importance on the idea of “image”. It’s the image argument that is used to support the idea that God the Father has a physical body (if we are made in his image and have a body well then so must He) So naturally if you say “how can we image God the Father if he isn’t made like us” people are going to take the next logical step and ask how a woman’s body (not the image of a man as we all know) can “image” a man’s.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I would guess the confusion/misunderstanding and the reason for the question is that LDS do apply gender attributes to God the Father while others don’t.

LDS theology places a great deal of importance on the idea of “image”. It’s the image argument that is used to support the idea that God the Father has a physical body (if we are made in his image and have a body well then so must He) So naturally if you say “how can we image God the Father if he isn’t made like us” people are going to take the next logical step and ask how a woman’s body (not the image of a man as we all know) can “image” a man’s.

Exactly, when discussing “God is a man” with Mormons, they invariably point to the very same scriptures that Zerinus posted to show how the Bible explains that God is a man.

Where we respond, saying, we are made in the image of God. God is a spirit, and our souls are created by Him, in His image. We do not believe a soul has a gender. We do not believe God the Father or the Holy Spirit have a gender.

 

[Paul_G]

I would guess the confusion/misunderstanding and the reason for the question is that LDS do apply gender attributes to God the Father while others don’t.

I don’t think scripture give us any reason to assume otherwise. I’m interested in reasons why the “others” wouldn’t

LDS theology places a great deal of importance on the idea of “image”. It’s the image argument that is used to support the idea that God the Father has a physical body (if we are made in his image and have a body well then so must He) So naturally if you say “how can we image God the Father if he isn’t made like us” people are going to take the next logical step and ask how a woman’s body (not the image of a man as we all know) can “image” a man’s.

To repeat a previous comment there are “others” that believe that Jesus is God, if that is true, was He not born male, die as a male and resurrected as a male, showed himself to others after that as a male, was taken up into heaven as a male, and a proclamation made that “This same Jesus” will again return in like fashion. So it appears me that based on this it can be concluded that God as male. If I am wrong please correct my reasoning.

I have shared my ideas on the subject, by your comment I assume you have a different take on what “image” means. Could you share that with us.

Paul

 

[why_me]

I don’t think scripture give us any reason to assume otherwise. I’m interested in reasons why the “others” wouldn’t

To repeat a previous comment there are “others” that believe that Jesus is God, if that is true, was He not born male, die as a male and resurrected as a male, showed himself to others after that as a male, was taken up into heaven as a male, and a proclamation made that “This same Jesus” will again return in like fashion. So it appears me that based on this it can be concluded that God as male. If I am wrong please correct my reasoning.

I have shared my ideas on the subject, by your comment I assume you have a different take on what “image” means. Could you share that with us.

Paul

May I also had that Jesus was the son of god and not a daughter or something in between of god. Jesus was male. No confusion there. Also, it seems that when god speaks as he did to Moses, he was a male, speaking in a male voice.

 

[why_me]

I’m sorry why me, but I just can’t let you get away with this one. This excuse is used by Mormon apologists all the time. It’s used so much in fact, that we really need to give it it’s own name–let’s call it the "speculation defense." It’s the defense Mormons use to excuse outrageous teachings by early Mormon prophets and apostles. Mormons use it when one of these guys teaches something so weird that even faithful Mormons can’t defend it.

What I am trying to say is that The Journal of Discourses are not canonized doctrine. BY said much and taught much. But not all of it comes from the mouth of god. What records do we have of the early apostles? To my mind, if all they said is written in the bible, well, they didn’t say much. Throughout their lives they spoke with people every day. What they said as been lost in the wind and I am sure that they also said strange things. We just have no record of it. It is not a defense at all. It is just the mormons have always done things. To each his or her own.

 

[why_me]

Exactly, when discussing “God is a man” with Mormons, they invariably point to the very same scriptures that Zerinus posted to show how the Bible explains that God is a man.

Where we respond, saying, we are made in the image of God. God is a spirit, and our souls are created by Him, in His image. We do not believe a soul has a gender. We do not believe God the Father or the Holy Spirit have a gender.

God has always shown himself to be a man. But if you wish to believe that god is also a woman that is fine by me. But I do believe that the catholic church may find it strange.

When has god spoken in a woman’s voice? Also, Mary when she has appeared is in a woman’s body. Hence, when we die we still keep our bodily characteristics as man and woman.

But god is only ‘spirit’?

 

[majick275]

What I am trying to say is that The Journal of Discourses are not canonized doctrine. BY said much and taught much. But not all of it comes from the mouth of god. What records do we have of the early apostles? To my mind, if all they said is written in the bible, well, they didn’t say much. Throughout their lives they spoke with people every day. What they said as been lost in the wind and I am sure that they also said strange things. We just have no record of it. It is not a defense at all. It is just the mormons have always done things. To each his or her own.

one again this is simply not true. read D&C 68:4 then look at what BY said himself in light of that canonized scripture. the truth about mormon doctrine is evident.

 

[zaffiroborant]

To repeat a previous comment there are “others” that believe that Jesus is God, if that is true, was He not born male, die as a male and resurrected as a male, showed himself to others after that as a male, was taken up into heaven as a male, and a proclamation made that “This same Jesus” will again return in like fashion. So it appears me that based on this it can be concluded that God as male. If I am wrong please correct my reasoning.

Again the LDS have a different theology behind Jesus. Since you believe everyone Including Jesus is born a spirit person (male or female) and then takes on a physical body the male human nature of Jesus is inherent to his nature.

In the Catholic view The Son took on a human nature, something not inherent to him. So from this perspective, the question of women “imaging” God makes sense.
Paul G;3837158:

I have shared my ideas on the subject, by your comment I assume you have a different take on what “image” means. Could you share that with us.

Paul

RebeccaJ said it as well as I could:

Where we respond, saying, we are made in the image of God. God is a spirit, and our souls are created by Him, in His image. We do not believe a soul has a gender. We do not believe God the Father or the Holy Spirit have a gender.