A question for Muslim apologists

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PadraigPearce

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I asked this question in another thread on Islam, but it didn’t get answered so I thought I’d make a separate thread about it.

Muhammed has Jesus and God the Father having this little exchange in the Quran:

5:116 And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Christians have never worshipped Mary as a God, except for very insignificant heretical groups. So I can only see three options to how the Quran could get this so wrong.
  1. God was mistaken about what Christians believe (not likely)
  2. Muhammed wrote the Quran from bits and pieces of Christianity and Judaism he had heard (more likely)
  3. Parts were added to the Quran later (possible)
 
PadraigPearce said:
I asked this question in another thread on Islam, but it didn’t get answered so I thought I’d make a separate thread about it.

Muhammed has Jesus and God the Father having this little exchange in the Quran:

5:116 And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Christians have never worshipped Mary as a God, except for very insignificant heretical groups. So I can only see three options to how the Quran could get this so wrong.
  1. God was mistaken about what Christians believe (not likely)
  2. Muhammed wrote the Quran from bits and pieces of Christianity and Judaism he had heard (more likely)
  3. Parts were added to the Quran later (possible)
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I have also heard about this error in the Quran. I’ve also heard that Muhammad was exposed to many heretical Christian sects where they had this error in their belief. Sounds like he took this same error and put it into the Quran.

I’m also interested to hear the reasoning for this…
 
I found this Catholic audio site to be very interesting, particularly the ones entitled History of the Church. The speaker is Steve Kellmeyer and he has six 45minute to 1hr20min talks about the history of the Church and goes at length into the clashes between the Catholic Church and Islam as well as the heresies that sound similar to the Islamic faith’s idea of Jesus absent of divinity.

bridegroompress.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6
 
PadraigPearce said:
I asked this question in another thread on Islam, but it didn’t get answered so I thought I’d make a separate thread about it.

Muhammed has Jesus and God the Father having this little exchange in the Quran:

5:116 And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Christians have never worshipped Mary as a God, except for very insignificant heretical groups. So I can only see three options to how the Quran could get this so wrong.
  1. God was mistaken about what Christians believe (not likely)
  2. Muhammed wrote the Quran from bits and pieces of Christianity and Judaism he had heard (more likely)
  3. Parts were added to the Quran later (possible)
Click to expand...
well , you allready confessed that theire are some groups worshiped mary , so quran talking about them .
where is the error then ?
 
elwill said:
well , you allready confessed that theire are some groups worshiped mary , so quran talking about them .
where is the error then ?
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So God, in speaking about Christian beliefs, chose to speak about an infintesimal % of “some groups who did this”, and ignore the much larger majority, who had a full grasp of the Trinity?

I would remind you this is 300+ years after Nicea.
 
scipio337 said:
So God, in speaking about Christian beliefs, chose to speak about an infintesimal % of “some groups who did this”, and ignore the much larger majority, who had a full grasp of the Trinity?

I would remind you this is 300+ years after Nicea.
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isn’t th majority worship jesus ?
i think that quran didn’t ignored them either , nor did it ignored trinity beliefs
 
It’s just that this quote shows a complete lack of understanding of Christian doctrine. Sure there have been groups that worshipped Mary as a god, but they’ve always been in the vast minority. Imagine if someone claimed to have had a revelation from God and in their writings they equated all of Christianity with something like Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses, because those were the only groups they ever had contact with. That seems to be about the level Muhammed was at. He met some heretical Christian groups and so he assumed all Christians worship Mary as a god.
 
elwill said:
isn’t th majority worship jesus ?
i think that quran didn’t ignored them either , nor did it ignored trinity beliefs
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A vast majority worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the Father, Son, Mary.

It would be like me saying “O, ye Muslims, do not accept Ahmad as the Mahdi”. There are Muslims who do that, but a vast majority do not.
 
scipio337 said:
A vast majority worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the Father, Son, Mary.

It would be like me saying “O, ye Muslims, do not accept Ahmad as the Mahdi”. There are Muslims who do that, but a vast majority do not.
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i don’t believe that this verse talking about trinity , it’s just talking about those who worshipped jesus and those who worshiped mary and those who worshiped both of them

whatever the verse is talking about judgment day , while God asking jesus if he asked his followers to worship him and his mother or not , as a refutation for thier deeds

so whoever worshipped jesus alone is involved and whoever worshiped mary is involved in the verse
and offcourse trinitian are involved as long as they worship jesus in their trinity
 
elwill said:
i don’t believe that this verse talking about trinity , it’s just talking about those who worshipped jesus and those who worshiped mary and those who worshiped both of them

whatever the verse is talking about judgment day , while God asking jesus if he asked his followers to worship him and his mother or not , as a refutation for thier deeds

so whoever worshipped jesus alone is involved and whoever worshiped mary is involved in the verse
and offcourse trinitian are involved as long as they worship jesus in their trinity
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Do you really think that Allah was so worried about these small heretical groups to put “worshipping Mary” in the Koran right there in the same sentence as the problem of worshipping Jesus as God?

Believing in Jesus as the Son of God was attacked by many enemies of Christianity. However, you never find throughout history anybody attacking Christians for worshipping Mary. So I ask again, do you really think that Allah was so worried about small groups of heretics that he would put worshipping Jesus and His Mother in the same sentence?
 
Adding to my last post, the only reason I can see this happen is if Muhammad didn’t know that real Christianity doesn’t worship Mary, and he put it into the Koran in error.

How does this verse not pertain to the Trinity? It is speaking of worshipping Christ, who is part of the Trinity, yet it also adds in worshipping Mary?.. in the same sentence
 
Mike2010 said:
Do you really think that Allah was so worried about these small heretical groups to put “worshipping Mary” in the Koran right there in the same sentence as the problem of worshipping Jesus as God?
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yes , i think that God is just enough to warn even those you consider to be minority
Believing in Jesus as the Son of God was attacked by many enemies of Christianity. However, you never find throughout history anybody attacking Christians for worshipping Mary. So I ask again, do you really think that Allah was so worried about small groups of heretics that he would put worshipping Jesus and His Mother in the same sentence?
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what is the problem with mentioning jesus and his mother in the same sentence ?

in one sentence he judge entire cults which divined jesus or his mother , i find it very simple and clear
 
Probably Muhammed had seen and heard how Christians adore and love Virgin Mary, then he thought that they worship her.

Even if you ask lots of Muslims nowadays they would tell you the same thing, they would tell you so just by watching the TV, they think when you put pictures and statues of Virgin Mary in the Churches then you are worshipping her, the same thing applies to the cross, lots of Muslims think that Christians worship the cross.

The problem that those Muslims will not ask questions to verify what they saw nor they are interested to know since they already have Islam which they believe it replaced Christianity in front of Allah.
 
That is judging by appearances…Christians don’t believe that Pope Benedict and the bishops and cardinals they see on tv wearing their vestments believe and center their lives on Jesus Christ…just idolators.
 
Sam_777 said:
Probably Muhammed had seen and heard how Christians adore and love Virgin Mary, then he thought that they worship her.

Even if you ask lots of Muslims nowadays they would tell you the same thing, they would tell you so just by watching the TV, they think when you put pictures and statues of Virgin Mary in the Churches then you are worshipping her, the same thing applies to the cross, lots of Muslims think that Christians worship the cross.

The problem that those Muslims will not ask questions to verify what they saw nor they are interested to know since they already have Islam which they believe it replaced Christianity in front of Allah.
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It’s unfortunate how so many of these misunderstandings are alive today. It’s not only the Muslims though, it is also from the Protestant denominations that try to use the Bible to prove we are idolaters yet it appears that they worship the Bible itself by kneeling and praying before it. Funny how that works, huh?
 
Jesus did not pass out Bibles…impossible until one thousand, four hundred and forty years later with Gutenberg’s printing press. Christianity went on for a long time…
 
5:116 condemns Christians for taking Mary as a god because many Christian practices involving veneration of Mary (Catholic and Eastern Orthodox certainly) amount to worship in Islamic doctrine, for example praying to her. It does not mean Christians literally believe her to be a god. 9:31 also condemns Christians for taking Jesus and their Priests as Lords besides God; obviously the author of the Qur’an did not think Christians believe their Priests to be Lords like they believe Jesus to be, so evidently these verses aren’t meant to be interpreted in a totally literal fashion, but rather within the proper Islamic framework.

5:116 has nothing to do with the Trinity.
 
Muslims are the authority of Islam. The Arabs came from these lands.

Jews are the authority of Judaism. The Jews came from Israel.

Although Muslims have have taken over many Christian lands, Muslims are no authority on Christianity. Christianity comes out of Judaism which is a very different culture than that of the Muslim world. Christianity has gone to many different cultures and countries, much more expansive than Judaism. So it is alot more complicated in practice. But the beliefs found in the creed are the same. Christianity came from Jesus Christ, not from Islam.

Islam drew from Judaism and Christianity without faith experience.

So they claim to know Jesus and Mary, and think they understand how we believe and relate. But they come up with wrong ideas about us and want to kill us some times.

Muslims do not know Jesus in truth. So they do not know Mary in truth. If they did understand, then we would have peace.

Muslims must work hard not to judge people because Muslims cannot understand other people’s religions. Muslims need to work to understand other people’s religions from the context of where they live and their own history, instead of coming in and taking over and misunderstanding and judging people to hell.

Get my point?
 
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