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oldcatholicguy
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How old was the Holy Mother when she gave birth to Jesus?
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oldcatholicguy
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-Could you link a source for Aisha’s prior marriage? This is the first I’ve heard of it.Erik, people with a bias against Islam would have you believe this is a fact and they conveniently neglect to tell you Aisha was already married to someone else before being married to the Prophet. They also neglect to tell you reports of her being a prepubescent girl in her 2nd marriage contradict other historical events. It’s a form of intellectual dishonesty in my opinion.
The truth is these reports don’t stand up to scrutiny and the only reason some Muslims stand by it is because they have been conditioned to believe everything written in Sahih Bukhari / Muslim is authentic and can not be questioned.
-What was the norm for marriage practices and ages during that time? As I understand it, a older man entering into a marriage with a prepubescent girl wasn’t that odd since the marriage (ceremony) and the marriage (consummation) could take place several years apart depending on the age of the bride.
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Darryl1958
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Old enough for the egg to descend.How old was the Holy Mother when she gave birth to Jesus?
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oldcatholicguy
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So she could have been as young as 10 years old.Old enough for the egg to descend.
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jakasaki
Guest
Thread title: ----------------> Question for muslimsHow old was the Holy Mother when she gave birth to Jesus?
Bringing Mother Mary into the conversation is called “derailing” the thread.
**No one knows the age of Mother Mary **when all this happened. Her age was never documented.
However, the Islamic hadith is clear:
Bukhari 7:62:64 & 65
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)’
searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=62&translator=1&start=64&number=63
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Yes, the title of the thread is "A question for Muslims" and since the very first response (I wonder who’s post that was) to the OP was by a non-Muslim, said first response started off not with- “Well Islam teaches…” but with “Here’s my take on your question:”, only 2 Muslims has actually posted in this thread, and none of your posts are response to either Muslim poster(including the one who provided citations of his supporting evidence) I assumed the discussion had moved past the title.Thread title: ----------------> Question for muslims
Bringing Mother Mary into the conversation is called “derailing” the thread.
**No one knows the age of Mother Mary **when all this happened. Her age was never documented.
However, the Islamic hadith is clear:
Bukhari 7:62:64 & 65
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)’
searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=62&translator=1&start=64&number=63
Bringing the Holy Mother into the thread would only be derailing if other posters had not decided the crucial bit of information in this discussion was the age at which Muhammad’s marriage was consummated and other posters had not decided that we need to highlight that Muhammad was, as one of the other posters put it, a PROPHET OF GOD. Or are we to hold prophets to a higher standard than God? Perhaps some would classify this as an attempt to derail because the age at which the Holy Mother gave birth to Christ would invalidate their own argument?
Additionally, while the Holy Mother’s age is not mentioned specifically in the Bible, it can be reasonably acquired by using some basic reason and critical thinking. Jewish law and customs concerning marriage and the age of marriage, cultural norms for that time, living conditions (18 was old for that time period for a woman to get married for the first time), the traditional views and teachings of the Church on the matter, etc. God gave us our “little grey cells” for a reason, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t to use them to put forth an argument that since it wasn’t in the Bible we can’t ever know for sure.
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famdigy
Guest
Here is one from a Q & A translated from Arabic to English-Could you link a source for Aisha’s prior marriage? This is the first I’ve heard of it.
-What was the norm for marriage practices and ages during that time? As I understand it, a older man entering into a marriage with a prepubescent girl wasn’t that odd since the marriage (ceremony) and the marriage (consummation) could take place several years apart depending on the age of the bride.
alqatrah.net/en/question/index.php?id=150
I don’t know what the average age for marriage was. I would guess it’s anywhere from 13-17 but that’s just my guess and I could be wrong.
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dronald
Guest
You know better than that; that’s not how it works.Thread title: ----------------> Question for muslims
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Thank you. Additional queries-Here is one from a Q & A translated from Arabic to English
alqatrah.net/en/question/index.php?id=150
I don’t know what the average age for marriage was. I would guess it’s anywhere from 13-17 but that’s just my guess and I could be wrong.
-Why does “May Allah’s Curses be Upon Her” follow her name?
-Am I understanding it correctly that her status/role is a controversial/hotly debated one within Islam?
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
How ironic.You know better than that; that’s not how it works.
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famdigy
Guest
Hi oldcatholicguy,Thank you. Additional queries-
-Why does “May Allah’s Curses be Upon Her” follow her name?
-Am I understanding it correctly that her status/role is a controversial/hotly debated one within Islam?
Twelver shia theology is made up of 1. a set of 6 theological beliefs that we call the roots of faith and 2. a set of 10 practices that we call the branches of faith.
One of those practices within the branches of faith is called Tabarra, It means to disassociate and distance oneself from the evildoers, oppressors, enemies of Allah and His Prophet and the Prophet’s Family. A common practice among Twelver Shias is to invoke God’s curse on such people after mentioning their name. This is a form of Tabarra through public displays of disapproval of that person.
You’re right, her status and role is a controversial one within Islam.
Sunni Muslims revere and respect her as the wife of the messenger, mother of believers, highly knowledgeable, etc.etc… and many feel the act of invoking God’s curse against her is highly blasphemous and deeply offensive. The extreme ones believe those who insult Aisha and the companions of the Prophet are heretics and should be put to death.
Shia Muslims on the other hand don’t have a good opinion of Aisha and accuse her of commuting uncountable crimes. Her fabricated hadiths about her age at marriage pale in comparison to her other crimes which include Poisoning and Assassinating the Prophet, abusing his daughter, leading the first civil war in Islam that caused the death of 30,000 people. Abusing Ali and his children. Fabricating Hadiths and attributing them to the Prophet
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Thank you for the information. I didn’t know that about the phrases that follow certain individual’s names (I assume the opposite is true for the positive phrases) nor how controversial Aisha is within the Islamic community and why.Hi oldcatholicguy,
Twelver shia theology is made up of 1. a set of 6 theological beliefs that we call the roots of faith and 2. a set of 10 practices that we call the branches of faith.
One of those practices within the branches of faith is called Tabarra, It means to disassociate and distance oneself from the evildoers, oppressors, enemies of Allah and His Prophet and the Prophet’s Family. A common practice among Twelver Shias is to invoke God’s curse on such people after mentioning their name. This is a form of Tabarra through public displays of disapproval of that person.
You’re right, her status and role is a controversial one within Islam.
Sunni Muslims revere and respect her as the wife of the messenger, mother of believers, highly knowledgeable, etc.etc… and many feel the act of invoking God’s curse against her is highly blasphemous and deeply offensive. The extreme ones believe those who insult Aisha and the companions of the Prophet are heretics and should be put to death.
Shia Muslims on the other hand don’t have a good opinion of Aisha and accuse her of commuting uncountable crimes. Her fabricated hadiths about her age at marriage pale in comparison to her other crimes which include Poisoning and Assassinating the Prophet, abusing his daughter, leading the first civil war in Islam that caused the death of 30,000 people. Abusing Ali and his children. Fabricating Hadiths and attributing them to the Prophet
Back to the topic of Aisha’s age and marriage to Muhammad I can generally conclude that-
-Sunni Muslims hold that she was of a young age and a virgin (I assume this is important, but don’t know why it is) when she married Muhammad.
-Shia Muslims hold that she was older, already had been married, and was not a virgin (see above) when she married Muhammad.
Would this be roughly accurate?
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Darryl1958
Guest
She was a young woman, according to the testimony of Biblical prophecy.So she could have been as young as 10 years old.
Too old to be playing with dolls.
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dronald
Guest
One of the Hadith’s has her playing with dolls.She was a young woman, according to the testimony of Biblical prophecy.
Too old to be playing with dolls.
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Darryl1958
Guest
digitaljournal.com/article/329317One of the Hadith’s has her playing with dolls.
The reason why this is important is not to go back and time and criticize the social mores of ancients with our modern knowledge. It is because it is a problem that religion is exasperating today.
There are people who suffer by regarding this type of behavior as iconic.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
And the term used in the Bible meant then what it means today in regards to how we define “young woman”?She was a young woman, according to the testimony of Biblical prophecy.
Too old to be playing with dolls.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
So what you are saying is the important part of Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha isn’t the “oh no he entered into a marriage contract that was in no way outside the norm for that time (and, if my information is correct, for Judaism at the time of the writing of the Old and New Testaments) and consummated the marriage within the norm for that time”;digitaljournal.com/article/329317
The reason why this is important is not to go back and time and criticize the social mores of ancients with our modern knowledge. It is because it is a problem that religion is exasperating today.
There are people who suffer by regarding this type of behavior as iconic.
but that it codified as correct something that we (the human race) have since learned through our advancement in knowledge concerning the physical and mental development of children isn’t correct;
and that this codification within Islam and the method by which Islamic theology is developed forces Muslims to pick between two truths (the truth of the Quran/Muhammad’s practices or the truth of secular knowledge [in this case science]);
and that this also highlights one of the failures of Islam’s man-made nature because, unlike Judaism and Christianity, if places the focus and purpose of marriage on the wrong aspects?
If that is what you are getting at, I agree.
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Darryl1958
Guest
In a nutshell, yes.So what you are saying is the important part of Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha isn’t the “oh no he entered into a marriage contract that was in no way outside the norm for that time (and, if my information is correct, for Judaism at the time of the writing of the Old and New Testaments) and consummated the marriage within the norm for that time”;
but that it codified as correct something that we (the human race) have since learned through our advancement in knowledge concerning the physical and mental development of children isn’t correct;
and that this codification within Islam and the method by which Islamic theology is developed forces Muslims to pick between two truths (the truth of the Quran/Muhammad’s practices or the truth of secular knowledge [in this case science]);
and that this also highlights one of the failures of Islam’s man-made nature because, unlike Judaism and Christianity, if places the focus and purpose of marriage on the wrong aspects?
If that is what you are getting at, I agree.
Our dealings with other faith traditions, or even the fully secular need not focus on the theological details, which are irreconcilable differences for all practical purposes.
To focus on the practical is something that people of good will and common sense can come to authentic agreement on.
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