A Question For Non-Believers

[christcnection1]

Okay… this is the Great Grand Daddy of all Hypothetical questions, but here it goes:

If you knew that God existed, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, would you willingly love and follow Him?

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That asked, I have to be fair. If, hypothetically, I knew God did not exist, no I would not be a Christian. I would certainly search for some kind of truth and ultimate meaning, but would certainly have a fundamentally different worldview, and likely very different way of life.

I ask this question because I genuinely believe there are individuals who would say “yes, of course I would follow the Christian God,” and there are others who would say “no, I wouldn’t follow the Christian God even if I knew He existed.”

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If you think this is a silly hypothetical, I partly agree with you. But at the same token, it could result in an interesting thread, so I thought I would give it a shot.

Yes, in reality, it comes down to faith, one way or another. But again… if somehow you knew, what would you do?

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi christcnection1!

I think following is the essence of your post, if I correctly understood it:

God existed and is Jesus Christ who died on the cross for others sins

I do agree that GodAllahParmesherYHWH exists and I believe in him and love Him.

I do not believe for reasons:

1. ChristianGod: a mythical God,in my opinion, carved out of nothing by Paul. Jesus did not believe in Paul’s mythical God, sorry I won’t believe in Paul mythical ChristianGod.

I would prefer to believe in GodAllahParmesherYHWH whom Jesus and all Messengers Prophets of God believed in.

1. Jesus did not die on Cross. You may if you like google < Mary: Holger Kerston> and see for yourself that Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in India and is buried in a tomb at Mohallah Khanyar, Sirinagar, India and Mary is buried in Murree.
2. **Sins of human beings **have no direct relationship with Jesus dieing on Cross or not dieing on it; that is an altogether a different phenomenon; needs a separate thread, if you like.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Krishna and Buddha

Thanks

 

[Dameedna]

It’s a simple question, but one that is difficult in a way to answer.

If I KNEW there was a God, then yes I could love that god and I can say without any qualms that I love life, the universe and everything that is at the heart of it. Life, is extrodinary. I also suspect that “a God” is a possibility, hence why I think of myself as agnostic.

If I found out that God sent plagues down to wipe out societies as a punishment, who sent people to an eternal hellfire(and claim it was their choice, when they never chose to exist in the first place), then I’d probably side with Satan .

Could I love the “christian” God? No I could not because that God as most christians describe it is not loving or just imo…which of course leads me to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist in the first place(among many other reasons). And before you say I just don’t understand(If anyone is going to say that), I will respond with…I do understand, I simply don’t agree with it

 

[paarsurrey]

Could I love the “christian” God? No I could not because that God as most christians describe it is not loving
…
…
I simply don’t agree with it

Hi

I understand you.

The concept of a loving ChristianGod or CatholicGod, in my opinion, carved by the clever and deviant Paul from a myth that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross as planned by a FatherGod/ChristianGod/CatholicGod to kill his own loving Son, is hardly an exemplary human loving father rationally; not to speak of a loving God who should have set an example of the most merciful. But it is not there. And of justice; punishing a loving son not for the mistakes/sins committed by him but for imaginary sins of xyz; only a Christian/Catholic/Protestant/JW can perceive.

But people riding a mythical hot air balloon, on their own, may not understand it. It is hard to leave a thousand years old blind faith. Only if they could search the comparative believes of the other human beings on this globe; then they would realize.

Please don’t mind. This is my sincere opinion; others don’t have to unnecessarily agree with me; only if they are convinced heart and soul.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[Dameedna]

Hi

I understand you.

The concept of a loving ChristianGod or CatholicGod, in my opinion, carved by the clever and deviant Paul from a myth that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross as planned by a FatherGod/ChristianGod/CatholicGod to kill his own loving Son, is hardly an exemplary human loving father rationally; not to speak of a loving God who should have set an example of the most merciful. But it is not there. And of justice; punishing a loving son not for the mistakes/sins committed by him but for imaginary sins of xyz; only a Christian/Catholic/Protestant/JW can perceive.

I do not believe that the writers of the gospels, and the followers of Jesus, ever meant for the stories to be taken as they are in their current interpretation.

I don’t think, they ever meant for people to “believe” that mary was a virgin, or that Jesus actually got up and walked around after he died.

I don’t think the gospel writers were stupid, or that paul was deviant. I think it is US, the gentiles, that have wrongly interpreted the stories for a very , very long time. Christianity was removed from Jewish culture very early on, and has probably been butchered and abused ever since.

Trying to get to the essence of the religion however, is very interesting and I have a great deal of respect for it’s fundamental messages.

 

[Eucharisted]

It dosen’t come down to faith, it comes down to whether or not you accept the truth. Those who do are wise, those who don’t are foolish, for while it may seem that only love and service is at stake, in reality what is at stake is the eternity of the soul: heaven and hell, total communion with God and the total reject of God.

I, for example, was visited by the Lord (you can read more on that by clicking the link in my signature). I accepted the reality of what happened and joined the Church. If I had not accepted what truly took place, than I would be insane, for only an insane man denies what is real.

 

[Dameedna]

It dosen’t come down to faith, it comes down to whether or not you accept the truth. .

A human claiming something is true, does not make it so.

If that was the case, I would agree with the FDLS marrying off 12 yr old girls, to 50 yr old men. They also claim it as truth.

Sorry, but claims to truth don’t work, and threats of damnation don’t either. Some of us are not that easily manipulated.

 

[paarsurrey]

I, for example, was visited by the Lord (you can read more on that by clicking the link in my signature). I accepted the reality of what happened and joined the Church. If I had not accepted what truly took place, than I would be insane, for only an insane man denies what is real.

“The story of my conversion”

Hi

I clicked “The story of my conversion” in your signatures.

Please don’t mind. It was when you were only ten years old but your experience was such that you have remembered it and have presented it to the public. May be you still remember the details.
You mean to say you met an apparition of Jesus, if I am right.

Then you met another man who did not tell you his name.
You met a woman; you have not mentioned her name. I add and guess that it was Mary, mother of Jesus.

Please don’t mind to answer some simple questions:

1. Jesus told you to join his church. So why didn’t you join the JWs church or Kingdom Hall or a Mormon Church? It must be a Catholic Church not a Protestant Church; but how did you recognize it as Jesus’ Church. If Jesus did not mention the name of the Church; then perhaps he meant to join a Church after researching properly. Did you make such a research? Or you preferred to join your parent’s church rather blindly.
2. I think there were no churches, in Jesus’ time, there were only synagogues in Judea. Jesus himself never went to a Church. When Jesus went to India after the event of Crucifixion; he must have seen Hindu temples there or Pagodas of Buddhists.
3. You don’t remember other person’s name. Guess who could that be? A man of the past or present or future.
4. I think you should have seen Jesus and Mary and the third person very closely and not a foggy apparition as seen by Paul. Paul, in my opinion n never mentioned features of Jesus; do you remember Jesus’ and Mary features as to the color of their eyes, hair and skin. If they were short persons individually or tall persons; approximately their height.

I did never have any such experience myself. Kindly share your experience with others.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

It’s a simple question, but one that is difficult in a way to answer.

If I KNEW there was a God, then yes I could love that god and I can say without any qualms that I love life, the universe and everything that is at the heart of it. Life, is extrodinary. I also suspect that “a God” is a possibility, hence why I think of myself as agnostic.

If I found out that God sent plagues down to wipe out societies as a punishment, who sent people to an eternal hellfire(and claim it was their choice, when they never chose to exist in the first place), then I’d probably side with Satan .

Could I love the “christian” God? No I could not because that God as most christians describe it is not loving or just imo…which of course leads me to the conclusion that he doesn’t exist in the first place(among many other reasons). And before you say I just don’t understand(If anyone is going to say that), I will respond with…I do understand, I simply don’t agree with it

Does a parent who punishes a child love the child?

 

[389670]

Hi christcnection1!

I think following is the essence of your post, if I correctly understood it:

I do agree that GodAllahParmesherYHWH exists and I believe in him and love Him.

I do not believe for reasons:

1. ChristianGod: a mythical God,in my opinion, carved out of nothing by Paul. Jesus did not believe in Paul’s mythical God, sorry I won’t believe in Paul mythical ChristianGod.

Have you ever read the gospels? If so, what kind of God does Jesus teach about?

I would prefer to believe in GodAllahParmesherYHWH whom Jesus and all Messengers Prophets of God believed in.

What historical evidence do you have that even shows that Allah even exists?

1. Jesus did not die on Cross. You may if you like google < Mary: Holger Kerston> and see for yourself that Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in India and is buried in a tomb at Mohallah Khanyar, Sirinagar, India and Mary is buried in Murree.

this is nonsense. The gospel accounts of Jesus are the best historical accounts of anyone in the ancient world. This Mary:Holger Kerston has not done her homework.

1. **Sins of human beings **have no direct relationship with Jesus dieing on Cross or not dieing on it; that is an altogether a different phenomenon; needs a separate thread, if you like.

If the death of Christ is not for the sins of the world then all men are doomed including Muslims.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Krishna and Buddha

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Sorry, it is a little off-topic but is related to one of our friends here.

I was googling for < JWs: apparition of Jesus and Mary> and I found following news item:

Is this Jesus in cloud over Sydney’s west?

By David Campbell

October 28, 2008 04:06pm

A BACKYARD cameraman from Sydney’s west reckons he has proof Jesus is watching us from the heavens - a Christ-shaped cloud he filmed and posted on YouTube.
The footage, by tubeoffroad, depicts a large cloud over Raby which amateur videomaker believes is an image of Jesus with his arms stretched out from his sides.

Does it look like Jesus? Watch the video below and tell us via the feedback form.

news.com.au/dailytelegraph/comments/0,22058,24565561-5001021,00.html

Those who have seen an apparition of Jesus. Kindly check it up and give your comments; sharing with us your experience, if you like.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[trdchubi]

Please don’t mind to answer some simple questions:

1. Jesus told you to join his church. So why didn’t you join the JWs church or Kingdom Hall or a Mormon Church? It must be a Catholic Church not a Protestant Church; but how did you recognize it as Jesus’ Church. If Jesus did not mention the name of the Church; then perhaps he meant to join a Church after researching properly. Did you make such a research? Or you preferred to join your parent’s church rather blindly.

Yeah join the religion founded by heretics that denies The Mighty God ,who is The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. JWs and Mormons are insignificant compared to the ultimate heresies claimed by the religion that wants to dominate everything else under the banner of peace. I wonder what it is?

1. I think there were no churches, in Jesus’ time, there were only synagogues in Judea. Jesus himself never went to a Church. When Jesus went to India after the event of Crucifixion; he must have seen Hindu temples there or Pagodas of Buddhists.

According to what heretic invention? The Gnostic gospels? Good reference for you to start learning about the christian faith.

Anyways the church itself is not a building, it is the people, the followers of Christ Jesus, and anytime he can enter their hearts.

Do you know where the Temple of the Holy Spirit of God is?

1. You don’t remember other person’s name. Guess who could that be? A man of the past or present or future.
2. I think you should have seen Jesus and Mary and the third person very closely and not a foggy apparition as seen by Paul. Paul, in my opinion n never mentioned features of Jesus; do you remember Jesus’ and Mary features as to the color of their eyes, hair and skin. If they were short persons individually or tall persons; approximately their height.

Paul never mentioned the features of Jesus simply because when Jesus appeared to him,a very bright light illuminated Paul’s surrounding making it difficult to see. Common instinct of any man is to closed his eyes. So he just heard the Lord Jesus speaking.

I did never have any such experience myself. Kindly share your experience with others.

Maybe, you should ask and listen to what exmuslim Christians felt as they encounter the Lord Jesus Christ. The astounding thing is many of them experienced the very same thing St. Paul and Eucharisted had which lead to their devotion of serving and loving the Mighty God who saves.

Shalom:thumbsup:

 

[Dameedna]

Does a parent who punishes a child love the child?

Depends on the punishment.

1. Plauges sent down to punish man.

The human equivalent would be to fill a syringe with the HIV virus, inject it into your children and then slowly watch them rot from the inside out.

A human that did this, would end up in jail and probably be considered legally insane. No, this parent does not love their child.

1. A flood.

The human equivalent would be to fill a bathtub full of water, and then place your childs head under the water until they are no longer kicking and fighting back. They are dead.

A human who did this, would end up in jail and probably be considered legally insane. No, this parent does not love their child.

1. Eternal damnation

The human equivalent would be to warn a child that they will be beaten forever if they steal candy, then when they do steal beat them forever.

A human parent that did this would not get away with the excuse that “I told them so” they would be in jail and probably be considered legally insane. No this parent does not love their child.

I believe in discipline, and in encouraging that same discipline in others. Punishment is a last resort, and eventually you have to let them on their way and hope they learn.

Christianity isn’t talking about a slap on the wrist, or missing a football game. It is talking about plauges that kill, floods that destroy and the mother of all mothers, an eternal existance of pain and suffering.

This, of course is not something I support, because to me it is not love, and no human organization is going to convince me otherwise. They are failable humans after all. Very failable.

 

[Dameedna]

Does it look like Jesus?

Jesus would have been a fairly short, dark skinned jewish man, according to his race.

No-one knows what he looked like, so some-one claiming they saw him is actually meaningless. How do you know what you are seeing, when you have no actual image to compare to?

 

[ralphinal]

Depends on the punishment.

1. Plauges sent down to punish man.

The human equivalent would be to fill a syringe with the HIV virus, inject it into your children and then slowly watch them rot from the inside out.

A human that did this, would end up in jail and probably be considered legally insane. No, this parent does not love their child.

Let’s set this one aside for a bit, ok?

1. A flood.

The human equivalent would be to fill a bathtub full of water, and then place your childs head under the water until they are no longer kicking and fighting back. They are dead.

A human who did this, would end up in jail and probably be considered legally insane. No, this parent does not love their child.

Let’s set this one aside for a bit, ok?

1. Eternal damnation

The human equivalent would be to warn a child that they will be beaten forever if they steal candy, then when they do steal beat them forever.

A human parent that did this would not get away with the excuse that “I told them so” they would be in jail and probably be considered legally insane. No this parent does not love their child.

Wow, you have a poor understanding of both hell and what sends someone there. You are sent to hell for outright denying God’s grace in your life. In other words, you tell God that you do not want him in your heart. This is manifested primarily through sin. It is not any sins that send you to hell, but those that show that you are willing to do very bad things knowing that they are very bad of your own free will. It is more like a parent who catches a drug addicted child stealing and will not let them move back home when they run away from treatment.

I believe in discipline, and in encouraging that same discipline in others. Punishment is a last resort, and eventually you have to let them on their way and hope they learn.

Christianity isn’t talking about a slap on the wrist, or missing a football game. It is talking about plauges that kill, floods that destroy and the mother of all mothers, an eternal existance of pain and suffering.

This, of course is not something I support, because to me it is not love, and no human organization is going to convince me otherwise. They are failable humans after all. Very failable.

Back to the plagues and the flood. These stories are ment to tell us things aout our relationship with God. Yes, we hold them to be true, but even if they are not, there is more to them than a mean old God who is so brutal that there is no way we can love him.

I find it funny that you keep talking about the Christian God but totally ignore the Gospel of Christ and focus primarily on the doings of the Old Testement God. Why is that?

 

[Dameedna]

Wow, you have a poor understanding of both hell and what sends someone there. You are sent to hell for outright denying God’s grace in your life. In other words, you tell God that you do not want him in your heart. This is manifested primarily through sin. It is not any sins that send you to hell, but those that show that you are willing to do very bad things knowing that they are very bad of your own free will. It is more like a parent who catches a drug addicted child stealing and will not let them move back home when they run away from treatment.

I’m aware of the doctrine and how it is explained.

If that child, finally decided they wanted help? According to your doctrine it’s too late. You may get a lifetime of chances, but after those 80 or so years are up, eternal suffering is your existance.

The human equivalent , is a child who finally asks for help and is willing to change and the parent accepts it is genuine change, but say’s No anyway.

Even if you want to be better eventually, the parent says, I don’t love you enough, to give you an eternity to try.

That is your hell. And a parent like that, is not a parent who loves the child.

The problem is not one of punishment. The problem with the doctrine that “eternal” punishment is without eternal choice.

Back to the plagues and the flood. These stories are ment to tell us things aout our relationship with God. Yes, we hold them to be true, but even if they are not, there is more to them than a mean old God who is so brutal that there is no way we can love him.

I am aware of different interpretations. I also am aware that catholics believe that plagues WERE sent to punish man. My human equivalent still remains.

The human story probably horrifies you(which is why you like to focus on the NT), and if a parent ever did that I suspect you would be disgusted.

Why you can accept it from a god that you believe loves you is something I cannot understand. And I think I’m glad of that.

I find it funny that you keep talking about the Christian God but totally ignore the Gospel of Christ and focus primarily on the doings of the Old Testement God. Why is that?

Well we can talk about the NT if you’d like.

Doesn’t change the fact that your “god” still did those things in the old testament does it?

It’s the same God, regardless of the “new testament” being a “changed relationship with humans through christ”.

He still did it, didn’t he? You can’t escape it, by focusing on the new, and improved God of the NT.

The HUMAN equivalent, of your God…is something you would probably reject outright. The question for you is, why do you accept it?

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by Eucharisted

I, for example, was visited by the Lord (you can read more on that by clicking the link in my signature). I accepted the reality of what happened and joined the Church. If I had not accepted what truly took place, than I would be insane, for only an insane man denies what is real.

Hi

Kindly share your experience with the answers to little questions I had asked.

I would have asked these simple questions on your blog; but I could not find any box for comments there.

This is however a request only.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

I’m aware of the doctrine and how it is explained.

If that child, finally decided they wanted help? According to your doctrine it’s too late. You may get a lifetime of chances, but after those 80 or so years are up, eternal suffering is your existance.

The human equivalent , is a child who finally asks for help and is willing to change and the parent accepts it is genuine change, but say’s No anyway.

Even if you want to be better eventually, the parent says, I don’t love you enough, to give you an eternity to try.

That is your hell. And a parent like that, is not a parent who loves the child.

No, it is more like the child trying to mend the relationship after the parent is dead. All the councilling in the world does not change the fact.

The problem is not one of punishment. The problem with the doctrine that “eternal” punishment is without eternal choice.

So, if I choose to put my leg across a train track, it is unfair that I only have one leg forever?

I am aware of different interpretations. I also am aware that catholics believe that plagues WERE sent to punish man. My human equivalent still remains.

The human story probably horrifies you(which is why you like to focus on the NT), and if a parent ever did that I suspect you would be disgusted.

I think that I am having trouble. God does not always do what we would do. We also do not know what options were given to these people before the plagues.

Why you can accept it from a god that you believe loves you is something I cannot understand. And I think I’m glad of that.

Hey, I can always claim that since he does not do that to me, he loves me.

Well we can talk about the NT if you’d like.

Doesn’t change the fact that your “god” still did those things in the old testament does it?

It’s the same God, regardless of the “new testament” being a “changed relationship with humans through christ”.

He still did it, didn’t he? You can’t escape it, by focusing on the new, and improved God of the NT.

The HUMAN equivalent, of your God…is something you would probably reject outright. The question for you is, why do you accept it?

So, if I do something that you do not like, will you always hold it against me? Would you be willing to find out why? Would you let our relationship progress from a new point if I changed my pattern of behavior against you? Or is it one strike and you are out?

 

[christcnection1]

Hi christcnection1!

I think following is the essence of your post, if I correctly understood it:

Thanks

No Paarsurrey…

The question was, if you somehow knew that Christianity was true, would you love the Christian God (Jesus Christ), and would you follow Him?

Likewise, let’s say that I somehow knew that Islam is true. If that was the case, yes, I would become a faithful Muslim.

If Buddhism was true, and I somehow knew that to be case, yes, I would become a faithful Buddhist…

and so on…

I understand this is all hypothetical.

Now do you understand what I’m asking?

 

[christcnection1]

It dosen’t come down to faith, it comes down to whether or not you accept the truth. Those who do are wise, those who don’t are foolish, for while it may seem that only love and service is at stake, in reality what is at stake is the eternity of the soul: heaven and hell, total communion with God and the total reject of God.

I, for example, was visited by the Lord (you can read more on that by clicking the link in my signature). I accepted the reality of what happened and joined the Church. If I had not accepted what truly took place, than I would be insane, for only an insane man denies what is real.

I do not deny your expeiences. Likewise, my journey has been nothing short of miraculous. However, even if one experiences a supposed miracle, there can be other reasonable and rational explanations. Of course, the both of us have come to the conclusion that the Lord was leading us to the Catholic Church. This is what we have chosen to place our faith in.

Depending on how you define faith, I would have to respectfully disagree with you. One must have faith in order to believe that someone or something is the truth. I think we agree that the Bible has a lot to say about faith, and the necessity of it.

Bear in mind that many people have not had miraculous or supernatural experiences in helping them to guide thier decisions. Faith has always come very hard for me. It has been a difficult process of growth, but well worth the fight.