A question for non-Catholic Christians ONLY.

[Publisher]

Lets say that I am living in the South American jungle and I am a member of this tribe: news.mongabay.com/2008/0530-amazon_tribe.html I and my ancestors have lived here for as long as history is recorded. My tribe has had no, I repeat no human contact with anyone outside of our tribe ever.

Am I condemned to hell?

A simple yes or no answer is all that is sought. No scripture quotes are required or desired. If you cannot answer without quoting scriptures please do not answer. No justification for answers is needed.

No, you are not condemned to hell.

 

[sambos671]

Depends what protestant you’re talking to. All of the ones I know believe that unless you hear the gospel and accept it you’ll burn.

 

[I_am_Me]

Depends what protestant you’re talking to. All of the ones I know believe that unless you hear the gospel and accept it you’ll burn.

I am protestant and i see their is much debate in our churches on this issue. Deb

 

[reteeks21]

Depends what protestant you’re talking to. All of the ones I know believe that unless you hear the gospel and accept it you’ll burn.

The key word is “unless”. Paul said they couldn’t believe it until they heard it. The whole “chicken before the egg” debate.

 

[neweyes]

The cure: TELL them.

 

[With_Questions]

The church that I previously went to believed definitely yes they are condemned.

I don’t go to that church any more. And I don’t think they have proved their case. So my answer is.

We don’t know for sure.

To quote BO, the eternal destiny business is above our pay grade.

 

[Contarini]

Excuse me, but I have every right and I believe it to the core.

Of course you have the right to believe anything you like. And I have the right to tell you what I think about your belief. What I said is that you have no *business *engaging in this kind of speculation.

No, it’s not a leadership training course.

So you think “discipleship” is “leadership”? Why?

It is how God brings the Truth of the Gospel to all nations, tribes and tongues.

No disagreement there.

Obviously. God is love, and love is never rude.

So saying someone “isn’t much of a disciple” is contrary to God’s love, but sending people to roast in eternal fire isn’t? God is not rude, but he does damn people who have never had the chance to believe in Him?

“Excuse me sir–not that door to the right, this one to the left, where you hear the screams and smell the brimstone. Please let me assist you, madam. Have a pleasant eternity!”

Is that really your picture of God?

Being rude may sometimes be the most loving thing one can do.

Edwin

 

[neweyes]

Of course you have the right to believe anything you like. And I have the right to tell you what I think about your belief. What I said is that you have no *business *engaging in this kind of speculation.

Hogwash. I have every right to speak on whatever topic I want. Jesus said to “tell the world” of Him SO THAT HE COULD SAVE them. NOT to make disciples.

So saying someone “isn’t much of a disciple” is contrary to God’s love,

Examine your motive. You were doing it as a put-down. You don’t even know me, and yes, you confessed and apologized yourself for being rude. Your word, not mine. (You are forgiven)

God is not rude, but he does damn people who have never had the chance to believe in Him?

That’s what He said, not me. Your belief about those being saved because they’ve never heard of Him is based on man’s longing for fairness and justice. God’s ways are not our ways.

Is that really your picture of God?

My picture must be one of Truth, based on His Word, not on my own understanding of what would be fair in my eyes. But yes, I agree with you that if it were left up to my judgment, it would be nice if those who haven’t had the chance to hear could have the same shot at heaven that his faithful have.

 

[With_Questions]

That’s what He said, not me.

He did say that? Where?

 

[dougfreed]

Neweyes you do have every right to speak as you wish. But Jesus did say in Matthew 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Hogwash. I have every right to speak on whatever topic I want. Jesus said to “tell the world” of Him SO THAT HE COULD SAVE them. NOT to make disciples.

 

[adrift]

Hogwash. I have every right to speak on whatever topic I want. Jesus said to “tell the world” of Him SO THAT HE COULD SAVE them. NOT to make disciples.

.

19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

 

[adrift]

He did say that? Where?

I wonder too.

 

[Reformed]

Lets say that I am living in the South American jungle and I am a member of this tribe: news.mongabay.com/2008/0530-amazon_tribe.html I and my ancestors have lived here for as long as history is recorded. My tribe has had no, I repeat no human contact with anyone outside of our tribe ever.

Am I condemned to hell?

A simple yes or no answer is all that is sought. No scripture quotes are required or desired. If you cannot answer without quoting scriptures please do not answer. No justification for answers is needed.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. - The Apostle Paul

The Message of Salvation to All by Paul

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[Contarini]

Hogwash. I have every right to speak on whatever topic I want.

Of course you have the right. I have already admitted this. Let’s talk about something substantive, OK?

Jesus said to “tell the world” of Him SO THAT HE COULD SAVE them. NOT to make disciples.

So you think Matt: 28:19 is wrong? This *is *the Great Commission, and it *says *“make disciples.”

I do not disagree that we are to tell people of Christ so they will be saved. What I’m pointing out is that Biblically being saved and becoming a disciple are the same thing. You are distinguishing the two, and this is wrong.

Examine your motive. You were doing it as a put-down.

A justified one, to shock you into thinking about what you were saying. You said that there would be no point obeying the Great Commission if people who didn’t hear the Gospel were not all damned. That’s a pretty horrifying thing. You insist on the damnation of millions so that you will feel that obeying the commands of your Lord and Savior is worthwhile. There is no polite way to respond to something like this.

I’m sure I have all sorts of bad motives for doing what I do, along with perhaps a few good ones. But that’s not the point here. The point is that you said that obeying Christ is only worthwhile if you can be confident that people will go to hell if you disobey.

That’s what He said, not me.

Yet you have flatly denied what He said, which was “make disciples.” You aren’t basing your opinions on Scripture at all. (It is possible to defend your position from Scripture, but you haven’t done so as yet.)

Your belief about those being saved because they’ve never heard of Him

No one is saved* because *they have never heard of Christ, and naturally I said nothing of the kind. The grace of Jesus Christ is the only reason anyone is saved.

is based on man’s longing for fairness and justice.

The Bible says from cover to cover that God is just. If that does not mean something analogous to what we mean by it, why call it justice? Why not just make up some meaningless word and use it to describe the way God behaves?

As a matter of fact I am not concerned with justice here. I agree that salvation shouldn’t be thought of in terms analogous to what we mean by justice. Salvation is the work of what we humans refer to as God’s mercy. Of course, in God they are the same thing.

God’s ways are not our ways.

Indeed. But they are higher than our ways, not lower.

My picture must be one of Truth, based on His Word

Which you misquote radically by denying that the Great Commission speaks of making disciples. If you can’t get your own prooftext right, how can you claim to be basing your opinions on Scripture?

not on my own understanding of what would be fair in my eyes.

It’s not about fairness or equality. It’s about goodness and mercy.

Edwin

 

[RobHom]

Shazzzzzzammmmmm!!

I asked a relatively simple question, seeking a simply yes or no answer. Thank you to everyone that answered!

Me, I think that those people are not condemned. My reasoning is this: Many people throughout God’s creation have never, through no fault of their own, heard the Word of God. If they have lived good lives that are pleasing to God…then I cannot believe that God would condemn the very people that He created vicariously. There is a significant difference between hearing the Word of God and rejecting it, and never hearing it.

Considering the following, taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

*1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. *

And from here: newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm

Its from Augustine’s Retractions, Book II.

I take the instance of a young man, or an old man, who has died in a region where he could not hear of the name of Christ. Well, could such a man have become righteous by nature and free will; or could he not? If they contend that he could, then see what it is to render the cross of Christ of none effect, 1 Corinthians 1:1 to contend that any man without it, can be justified by the law of nature and the power of his will. We may here also say, then is Christ dead in vain Galatians 2:21 forasmuch as all might accomplish so much as this, even if He had never died; and if they should be unrighteous, they would be so because they wished to be, not because they were unable to be righteous. But even though a man could not bejustified at all without the grace of Christ, he would absolve him, if he dared, in accordance with his words, to the effect that, “if a man were of such a character, because he could not possibly have been of any other, he would be free from all blame.”

 

[piperspop]

Reply to original question.

No.

Piperspop
Traditional Anglican

 

[Ag_not]

Seems most people of most persuasions seem to think No. I find that very hopeful

 

[RobHom]

Seems most people of most persuasions seem to think No. I find that very hopeful

Well, just so you know…the Catholic Church teaches just that!!

 

[dougfreed]

RobHom how can the cc teach such a thing yet still say if a baby is not baptized by a certain time the baby is condemned or lost or whatever wacky theory it is. Isn’t this kind of contradictory?

Well, just so you know…the Catholic Church teaches just that!!

Originally Posted by RobHom View Post
Lets say that I am living in the South American jungle and I am a member of this tribe: news.mongabay.com/2008/0530-amazon_tribe.html I and my ancestors have lived here for as long as history is recorded. My tribe has had no, I repeat no human contact with anyone outside of our tribe ever.

Am I condemned to hell?

 

[RobHom]

RobHom how can the cc teach such a thing yet still say if a baby is not baptized by a certain time the baby is condemned or lost or whatever wacky theory it is. Isn’t this kind of contradictory?

The Catholic Church does not say the unbaptized infant is condemned.

From the Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI

*1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. *

1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God’s mercy and to pray for their salvation

As you can see, its neither “wacky” nor is it it a teaching of the Catholic Church that unbaptized infants or children are condemned.