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Rightlydivide
Guest
It was from a different post. It did take awhile! I never save things like I should. So thank you.
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Nicea325
Guest
On the contrary,I am waiting for him to give me the location and who fixed the canon before Jesus’ birth?Rightly,
Code:I had directed that question to Nicea, not you. I am interested to see what dates he comes up with. Nice job pulling all the historical references.
Nothing he has provided proves the Jews fixed it,only rightlydivide is the one indulging in a fantasy.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
I will answer this point about Jude first. A citation or reference does not equal canonicity. Of course your commentary mentions it. If you held that a citation means it is canonical than the author of Jude was mistaken. But you see it does not mean that.Ahhhhh…rightlydivide…you have all of your information mixed and bunched up in a ball and once again are adding to the text. The fact that the patristic writers held to the ‘traditional’ who by the way lived AFTER Christ does not support or prove that the Jews had a FIXED canon prior to Jesus. They are not arguing in your favor and saying,“I see the Jews already had a fixed canon prior to Jesus and it is conclusive.” No!
If it was FIXED as you believe and if that were the case,then why would Jude cite two apocryphal sources in his letter? Even my NKJV Study Bible discusses this issue.
The issue here is that you alone believe the Jews FIXED it before Jesus even was born…that is the issue,not the view of the church fathers about the traditional Jewish canon.
Now,tell me WHERE did it happen? Jerusalem? Tel-Aviv? Ashdod? Hebron?
WHO made such the decision to FIX it before Jesus was even born? The Sadducees? The Pharisees? The Essenes?
We can discuss specifically how the authors of scripture wrote about thus saith the Lord in terms of how they quote actual scripture.
This particular point of yours is not Catholic or Protestant by the way. Catholics do not believe that a citation or reference means it is canonical. The Bible is filled with quotes from noncanonical sources.
Where? Once again, God set the canon. The Jews would have recognized it over a period of time but they did in my estimation and that of people that reject the fluid canon hypothesis.
Now show me some primary sources from 200 BC to 200 AD who said it was fluid Nicea. You do not like or agree with my primary sources, show me your primary sources.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
God fixed it. The Jews recognized it. Now, you can disagree Nicea but please do not act like I have not answered the question. I have.On the contrary,I am waiting for him to give me the location and who fixed the canon before Jesus’ birth?
Nothing he has provided proves the Jews fixed it,only rightlydivide is the one indulging in a fantasy.
I gave my sources which I believe shows that the Jews and the early church agreed. My deuterocanonical era sources were in the thread I started that got deleted. No excuse, I will provide them again when needed. They come from a book by FF Bruce and I can find it again.
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Nicea325
Guest
More tap dancing? More circular arguments? How convenient rightly! Now it is NOT canonicity? What? The NT? The OT? Now you truly look lost and at best,confused.I will answer this point about Jude first. A citation or reference does not equal canonicity. Of course your commentary mentions it. If you held that a citation means it is canonical than the author of Jude was mistaken. But you see it does not mean that.
We can discuss specifically how the authors of scripture wrote about thus saith the Lord in terms of how they quote actual scripture.
This particular point of yours is not Catholic or Protestant by the way. Catholics do not believe that a citation or reference means it is canonical. The Bible is filled with quotes from noncanonical sources.
Where? Once again, God set the canon. The Jews would have recognized it over a period of time but they did in my estimation and that of people that reject the fluid canon hypothesis.
Now show me some primary sources from 200 BC to 200 AD who said it was fluid Nicea. You do not like or agree with my primary sources, show me your primary sources.
You said it was FIXED before Jesus’ birth and Jude and Paul lived WAAAYYYY after the claim by YOU alone that it was FIXED,so why would two orthodox and conservative Jews go outside the FIXED canon,which they would have known about,since it was fixed? You are alone so adamant about it.
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Eutychus123
Guest
Numbers 21:14 quotes the Book of the Wars of the Lord ( also non-canonical )I will answer this point about Jude first. A citation or reference does not equal canonicity. Of course your commentary mentions it. If you held that a citation means it is canonical than the author of Jude was mistaken. But you see it does not mean that.
We can discuss specifically how the authors of scripture wrote about thus saith the Lord in terms of how they quote actual scripture.
This particular point of yours is not Catholic or Protestant by the way. Catholics do not believe that a citation or reference means it is canonical. The Bible is filled with quotes from noncanonical sources.
Where? Once again, God set the canon. The Jews would have recognized it over a period of time but they did in my estimation and that of people that reject the fluid canon hypothesis.
Now show me some primary sources from 200 BC to 200 AD who said it was fluid Nicea. You do not like or agree with my primary sources, show me your primary sources.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
No, direct quotes from noncanonical sources do not mean they are considered canonical. IF so, then most of the authors of the Bible were wrong.More tap dancing? More circular arguments? How convenient rightly! Now it is NOT canonicity? What? The NT? The OT? Now you truly look lost and at best,confused.
You said it was FIXED before Jesus’ birth and Jude and Paul lived WAAAYYYY after the claim by YOU alone that it was FIXED,so why would two orthodox and conservative Jews go outside the FIXED canon,which they would have known about,since it was fixed? You are alone so adamant about it.
It was fixed before the birth of Jude and Paul and Christ.
I am telling you that quoting a noncanonical book does not make something canonical. It never has. Not even Catholics believe that! Although you seem to for some odd reasons.
You are familiar in your extensive research of the Book of Jasher and the Book of the Wars of the Lord?
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Eutychus123
Guest
I think I’ve forgotten the original question. Are we trying to determine if the Jews closed the canon before or after the birth of Jesus?
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CWBetts
Guest
I think the first step is admitting the malicious damage done by the refromers.This topic is important enough to converse with sensitivity and understanding on both sides, if you care as much as you say about the split and division between christians, then i think we can all start off with at least taking care in how we dialogue with one another, or else it is for nothing… this goes for everyone.
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CWBetts
Guest
This is the ultimate hubris. “Ours is just right”? HOGWASH. Yours is too small because it was edited by Luther and his ilk. He took away from the word of God! Aparrently that does not matter to you. If you can manipulate the Word, perhaps you feel you can also manipulate God.You need to cut out the personal character attacks. My threads are issues and doctrinally oriented.
Yes, your church set your canon. It differs from the Eastern Orthodox canon. You did not set their canon. Your canon differs from the Oriental Orthodox canon. You did not set their canon. And you certainly did not set our canon. The Jews used a fixed canon prior to Christ and the evidence clearly indicates that. You have never been able to provide any evidence to back up your claim of a fluid canon. I provided early Christian writers, Josephus and even Deuterocanonical sources.
Your canon is too big. The Samaritans is too small. Ours is just right.
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jpink1019
Guest
Is this your condition for being able to speak with someone else about faith? There should be no conditions when it comes to speaking with care to one another.I think the first step is admitting the malicious damage done by the refromers.
What if someone doesn’t agree with you… does this mean we chew each other out?
What of Christ are we reflecting if we can’t even speak with kindness to one another?
What would attract someone to what Christ has to offer if we as followers don’t even treat each other the way Christ commanded we treat our own enemies…??
And we are not enemies, we are fellow christians…
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Eutychus123
Guest
I personally object to the smashing of pipe organs and the breaking of stained glass windows. Also, I don’t think that the baptismal font at Kincardin Scotland should have been left outside the door, ( where it remains today. )I think the first step is admitting the malicious damage done by the refromers.
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CWBetts
Guest
Why is it you automatically think I was referring to material damage?I personally object to the smashing of pipe organs and the breaking of stained glass windows. Also, I don’t think that the baptismal font at Kincardin Scotland should have been left outside the door, ( where it remains today. )
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Eutychus123
Guest
Why is it you automatically think I was referring to material damage?
Actually, I didn't think that you were talking about material damage at all.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
No, we follow the canon of the Jews and the early Christian church. You use a canon that found favor around the years 350 to 400 AD. They were never canonical. No I do not feel like I can manipulate God.This is the ultimate hubris. “Ours is just right”? HOGWASH. Yours is too small because it was edited by Luther and his ilk. He took away from the word of God! Aparrently that does not matter to you. If you can manipulate the Word, perhaps you feel you can also manipulate God.
Yet another personal attack. That is okay. I am braced for it!
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Rightlydivide
Guest
Well said. Even though I am often personally attacked, I am attempting to do a better job of responding with kindness. Thank you for the reminder.Is this your condition for being able to speak with someone else about faith? There should be no conditions when it comes to speaking with care to one another.
What if someone doesn’t agree with you… does this mean we chew each other out?
What of Christ are we reflecting if we can’t even speak with kindness to one another?
What would attract someone to what Christ has to offer if we as followers don’t even treat each other the way Christ commanded we treat our own enemies…??
And we are not enemies, we are fellow christians…
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Nicea325
Guest
Precisely why I have not given a date! I have plenty of biblical scholars (Catholic,Orthodox,Protestant) who do not mention the OT was FIXED without a doubt,before Jesus was born. In fact, none even say such a thing,other than rightlydivide who say it is FACT of canonical history.What date(s) would you give for the Jews setting the canon? Would you give separate dates for Law, Prophets, and Psalms?
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CWBetts
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Actually, it is the Catholics who use the Canon of the Jewish Diaspora. Haven’t we gone over this?No, we follow the canon of the Jews and the early Christian church. You use a canon that found favor around the years 350 to 400 AD. They were never canonical. No I do not feel like I can manipulate God.
Yet another personal attack. That is okay. I am braced for it!
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CWBetts
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You are not personally attacked. You simply invent said attacks.Well said. Even though I am often personally attacked, I am attempting to do a better job of responding with kindness. Thank you for the reminder.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
The Jewish canon was set prior to Christ. You use a canon that dates around 350-400 AD.Actually, it is the Catholics who use the Canon of the Jewish Diaspora. Haven’t we gone over this?
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