A question for Non-denominationals

[MartinJordan]

I do not think that people pick and choose what suits them all the time or even possibly most of the time. I think that they follow what they are taught, through the lens of their background, education, and understanding. Often, people make tremendous personal sacrifices and it is not a pick and choose.
I can name several people who, in different circumstances, engaged in great personal sacrifice to follow their beliefs. I bet you could too.
I find your glass a little too half empty in all honesty
I prefer to see the best in people and never assume they are self serving unless I have reason to based upon what I find out. Even then, I try to cut them some slack

Just wanted to say that I find your views of others upbringings very charitable, thoughtful and sincere.

God bless you.

MJ

 

[Saul_DelTarso]

When those puritans settled America, one of the first orders of business was the purging and persecution of Catholics who were already settled in much of the country before there were, including no small amount of bloodshed and the official governmental oppression of anyone not a protestant. My own Catholic ancestors suffered under it. It’s historical fact. It’s wisdom to learn things besides what you agree with or like.

The whole thread is weird because you attempt discuss only a single side of the debate with only a small subset of facts and knowledge that support it, and deign to argue against the other side having even less accurate and useful information about it than your own. This makes a person appear impertinent and rude,even though it’s really no worse than having less than enough information to make considered judgments and fully informed opinions about the subject, and operating from zeal and a sense of self righteousness and unbounded, if errant certainty.

Getting the “Well Done”, means you actually have to DO it well, by the way. I understand though, and hope you’ll get past this point someday, with concerted and honest effort. It takes a LOT of effort, like actually learning to get past that limitation in knowledge and understanding, in order to be able to converse in a way that is effective and persuasive, which of course requires a person to know more than one’s own opinion and point of view. What is not understood by a person in that embarrassing condition is certainly out there to learn, but may not be in places that always agree with one’s current opinion.

For now, it’s like going to a cocktail party with a room full of doctors, and trying to talk about medicine. The last thing that person should do is engage in that conversation, yet in arrogance, like to THINK they know enough about it. To a person who actually does know, what is more in evidence is what is missing from the opinionated and misinformed neophyte’s conversation, and the acute desire to escape the proximity of the offending boob as hastily as one can.

Hello, Mr. “I’m going to ignore you,” at least until I say something you agree wit! Thing is, this whole thread is weird, because it isn’t clear what your question is, or what point you are trying to make! Do you want to know why we don’t call ourselves Protestant. or why we don’t align ourselves more closely to the catholic church? I believe that many nondenoms are where they’re at, because they finally gor tired of overbearing, self-righteous, rligious zealots trying to control their worship, their giving, their dress codes and other things to numerous to list here! Spouting doctrine they claim is God inspired when it may just be their interpretation of it! Remember why the people came from England to America; to escape religious pesecution! There are many who have reinstituted this practice, which also screams “Control”. Legalism iin the Christian world is rampant, and is probably the biggest enemy of those wishing to worship, hands held high or not at all in this country at least! Telling people that they are not honoring the Sabbath by observing it on Sunday, or that they are going to Hell if they don’t do this or that So, call us what you will; it matters not! We are waiting for the King to say, “Well done my good and faithful servant!”

 

[Jon_Hus]

When those puritans settled America, one of the first orders of business was the purging and persecution of Catholics who were already settled in much of the country before there were, including no small amount of bloodshed and the official governmental oppression of anyone not a protestant. My own Catholic ancestors suffered under it. It’s historical fact. It’s wisdom to learn things besides what you agree with or like.

You should take your own advice and learn both sides of the equation. Here is a question to ponder, what was the main reason the puritans left the old country for the new? And you say the country was then settled, that would put the puritan invasion into catholic north america in the late 19th century, after the civil war. You also link the puritans with government oppression, since when did the US Congress outlaw the catholic church?

 

[zdon011]

My goodness, in a few lines you border on several heresies, my brother!

John 14:6! I believe that God desires that no man should perish!

That’s true. But it must be qualified by the fact that God will save no one against his will. Otherwise we stray into Universalism.

And all are able to choose salvation, or not!

Rather, we have free will to accept or reject God’s free gift of saving Grace. But as sinful creatures, we are unable of ourselves to ‘choose’ salvation. Only Our Lord saves. To suggest otherwise is Pelagian.

The catholic church the surest way to Heaven, speculative at best!

Then you are denying the clear and unanimous teaching of Christ and the Apostles and Saints of the Church. Do you know how you got the Bible? Through the deliberation of authoritative Church councils, who, guided by the Holy Ghost, rejected the uncanonical books that were circulating as Scripture in the centuries after the Ascension.

Our Lord gave the Apostles authority to celebrate the Eucharist (‘Do this in remembrance of me’), teach, and discipline believers. Through the Apostles and their successors, the presbyters and bishops, God forgives the sins of the faithful (John 20:23).

The Catholic Church is unique in that she can clearly trace a direct line of descent from the Church Christ founded. It is through the Church that believers are brought to Christ and preserved/strengthened in their faith. Christ did not tell us to ‘go it alone’, because he knew we were weak and would err/stumble. In the Bible, the Church is called ‘the pillar and bulwark of the truth’.

Christ gave to the Apostles the entire deposit of faith necessary for salvation (John 14:26), told them to pass it on to the world (Matt. 28:19), and threatened damnation for those who did not believe them (Mark 16:16). He would not have condemned to hell the disbelievers, if either it was not important to believe all that the Apostles taught or if He was not certain that the Apostles were teaching the truth (Luke 10:16). The Apostles themselves knew that all who believed in any way different from their infallible teaching would perish (Galatians 1:8).

 

[Alex_Di_Matteo]

Purgatory, like the word Trinity is not found in scripture. The concept most definitely is.
Now before I explain let me say this. If you approach a subject with your mind fixed and immovable, you will not only not be persuaded but you will not see at all. First rid yourself of fear and distrust of the other person you speak with, then you will fairly deal with the subject.
Follow me if you will. Without using Books of Scripture not accepted by non Catholics, I will show you Purgatory.
Question: Does the Scripture say, Our God is a consuming fire?
Answer: Yes it does in Hebrews 12: 29
Question: If I take a pole made of silver and wrap a cloth around it, then when the cloth is secure on the pole I move the pole closer and closer to a campfire, what happens?
Answer: the closer I get to the flames, the cloth starts to get warm, then hot, then it catches fire, and the end result is the pole is the only thing left. See where I am going?
The silver pole is our eternal life. It is spiritual. It does not burn. The cloth is the things we do while in the body. (carnal things) The good things are now part of the silver pole. They cannot burn but they add to our reward. The process I just mentioned is found in 1st Corinthians 3:11-15. purgatory is the state of having the carnal works of the flesh burned off before we enter Heaven. Why, because Revelation chapter 21:27 says, Nothing impure shall enter the Eternal City… (Heaven) We are going to be judged by our works that we do while here in a physical body. When we stand before God we will be naked(spiritually speaking) All that we did will be exposed to the Lord, as we get closer to Him( the consuming fire) we will under go the process of being cleansed from our carnal works.That is called purgation. Like it or not when we finite creatures are met by Him who is Holy, Holy, Holy, we will burn up like a cloth in a campfire. The only thing left will be our eternal life. I hope I helped you out a bit. Deny the church if you like, have issues with it as well if you do, but be honest, read the scriptures and believe what they say. It is a fearful or dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Hebrews 10:31

 

[Alex_Di_Matteo]

Where;s the Biblical basis for purgatory? The souls of believers go to paradise. Remember on the cross, where Jesus said to the repenting criminal that he would be with Christ in paradise that day? Sorry, doesn’t sound like purgatory to me. =)

 

[Alex_Di_Matteo]

You are absolutely correct, the thief went to Paradise. How did he get there? There was a journey was there not? If I am on my way to a specific destination, and I arrive there, lets say I take a bus. I got where I was going but not without a few unnecessary stops on the way
because other people on the bus got off before me at different places. It is the nature of riding the bus. You make a lot of stops before you get to your destination. So it is with heaven. you will definitely get there if you are truly repentant and converted. Your journey however will pass through the cleansing fires of a Holy God that scripture in Hebrews calls
a Consuming Fire. Don’t call it purgatory, call it your trip to heaven. The road you will take will bring you through the fire of Gods purification. You cannot get in any other way, you must pass through the fire. 1 Cor.3:11-15.

 

[1beleevr]

Actually,believe it or not, I do care. However,as long as the element of HUMAN PRIDE exists, unification will always be a very big uphill battle.

It pains me greatly when I see division in God’s family; but I know that as you pointed out, pride on every side and from every faction, will hinder the unification of the Body!

 

[1beleevr]

You are absolutely correct, the thief went to Paradise. How did he get there? There was a journey was there not? If I am on my way to a specific destination, and I arrive there, lets say I take a bus. I got where I was going but not without a few unnecessary stops on the way
because other people on the bus got off before me at different places. It is the nature of riding the bus. You make a lot of stops before you get to your destination. So it is with heaven. you will definitely get there if you are truly repentant and converted. Your journey however will pass through the cleansing fires of a Holy God that scripture in Hebrews calls
a Consuming Fire. Don’t call it purgatory, call it your trip to heaven. The road you will take will bring you through the fire of Gods purification. You cannot get in any other way, you must pass through the fire. 1 Cor.3:11-15.

We as humans can only speculate what “journey”, the thief took after dying! But, we do know that the Maker promised him, he would be in paradise, someday!

 

[1beleevr]

Nicea 325

1. Do you believe that non-Catholics have a bigger problem with human pride than Catholics?
2. Is there anyway to defend oneself against the charge of pride that would be persuasive?
   

I don’t think one can narrow it down to one religion, cult, sect, denomination, being more prideful than another! I have encontered Christians from numerous denominations(including catholics) who were extremely prideful, bordering on arrogance! Pride is a destructive human trait, which when choked on, rather than swallowed, can bring much grief to that person, and those arounf him/her! The middle letter in pride is ‘I’. For many of us, it is all about us, to heck with everyone else! What if Jesus had thought that way? Where would we be today? I have found that one of the best antidotes for pride, is humility:thumbsup: Must we defend ourselves against claims of pride, or is it possible that the person claiming we are prideful is simply transferring his own prideful feelings on us?

 

[1beleevr]

My goodness, in a few lines you border on several heresies, my brother!

That’s true. But it must be qualified by the fact that God will save no one against his will. Otherwise we stray into Universalism.

Rather, we have free will to accept or reject God’s free gift of saving Grace. But as sinful creatures, we are unable of ourselves to ‘choose’ salvation. Only Our Lord saves. To suggest otherwise is Pelagian.

Then you are denying the clear and unanimous teaching of Christ and the Apostles and Saints of the Church. Do you know how you got the Bible? Through the deliberation of authoritative Church councils, who, guided by the Holy Ghost, rejected the uncanonical books that were circulating as Scripture in the centuries after the Ascension.

Our Lord gave the Apostles authority to celebrate the Eucharist (‘Do this in remembrance of me’), teach, and discipline believers. Through the Apostles and their successors, the presbyters and bishops, God forgives the sins of the faithful (John 20:23).

The Catholic Church is unique in that she can clearly trace a direct line of descent from the Church Christ founded. It is through the Church that believers are brought to Christ and preserved/strengthened in their faith. Christ did not tell us to ‘go it alone’, because he knew we were weak and would err/stumble. In the Bible, the Church is called ‘the pillar and bulwark of the truth’.

Christ gave to the Apostles the entire deposit of faith necessary for salvation (John 14:26), told them to pass it on to the world (Matt. 28:19), and threatened damnation for those who did not believe them (Mark 16:16). He would not have condemned to hell the disbelievers, if either it was not important to believe all that the Apostles taught or if He was not certain that the Apostles were teaching the truth (Luke 10:16). The Apostles themselves knew that all who believed in any way different from their infallible teaching would perish (Galatians 1:8).

W-R-O-N-G; no heresies here!

 

[1beleevr]

My goodness, in a few lines you border on several heresies, my brother!

That’s true. But it must be qualified by the fact that God will save no one against his will. Otherwise we stray into Universalism.

Rather, we have free will to accept or reject God’s free gift of saving Grace. But as sinful creatures, we are unable of ourselves to ‘choose’ salvation. Only Our Lord saves. To suggest otherwise is Pelagian.

Then you are denying the clear and unanimous teaching of Christ and the Apostles and Saints of the Church. Do you know how you got the Bible? Through the deliberation of authoritative Church councils, who, guided by the Holy Ghost, rejected the uncanonical books that were circulating as Scripture in the centuries after the Ascension.

Our Lord gave the Apostles authority to celebrate the Eucharist (‘Do this in remembrance of me’), teach, and discipline believers. Through the Apostles and their successors, the presbyters and bishops, God forgives the sins of the faithful (John 20:23).

The Catholic Church is unique in that she can clearly trace a direct line of descent from the Church Christ founded. It is through the Church that believers are brought to Christ and preserved/strengthened in their faith. Christ did not tell us to ‘go it alone’, because he knew we were weak and would err/stumble. In the Bible, the Church is called ‘the pillar and bulwark of the truth’.

Christ gave to the Apostles the entire deposit of faith necessary for salvation (John 14:26), told them to pass it on to the world (Matt. 28:19), and threatened damnation for those who did not believe them (Mark 16:16). He would not have condemned to hell the disbelievers, if either it was not important to believe all that the Apostles taught or if He was not certain that the Apostles were teaching the truth (Luke 10:16). The Apostles themselves knew that all who believed in any way different from their infallible teaching would perish (Galatians 1:8).

Jesus gave ALL of us the privilege of “doing this in remembrance of Me,” not just the apostles! And the danger in stating that the catholic church is the surest(or maybe the “only”) way to Heaven, suggests to some out there who may be gullible, that unless you are catholic, you can’t go to Heaven Now who’s bordering on heresy?

 

[1beleevr]

When those puritans settled America, one of the first orders of business was the purging and persecution of Catholics who were already settled in much of the country before there were, including no small amount of bloodshed and the official governmental oppression of anyone not a protestant. My own Catholic ancestors suffered under it. It’s historical fact. It’s wisdom to learn things besides what you agree with or like.

The whole thread is weird because you attempt discuss only a single side of the debate with only a small subset of facts and knowledge that support it, and deign to argue against the other side having even less accurate and useful information about it than your own. This makes a person appear impertinent and rude,even though it’s really no worse than having less than enough information to make considered judgments and fully informed opinions about the subject, and operating from zeal and a sense of self righteousness and unbounded, if errant certainty.

Getting the “Well Done”, means you actually have to DO it well, by the way. I understand though, and hope you’ll get past this point someday, with concerted and honest effort. It takes a LOT of effort, like actually learning to get past that limitation in knowledge and understanding, in order to be able to converse in a way that is effective and persuasive, which of course requires a person to know more than one’s own opinion and point of view. What is not understood by a person in that embarrassing condition is certainly out there to learn, but may not be in places that always agree with one’s current opinion.

For now, it’s like going to a cocktail party with a room full of doctors, and trying to talk about medicine. The last thing that person should do is engage in that conversation, yet in arrogance, like to THINK they know enough about it. To a person who actually does know, what is more in evidence is what is missing from the opinionated and misinformed neophyte’s conversation, and the acute desire to escape the proximity of the offending boob as hastily as one can.

So, even back then, the catholics were whining about persecution Had they themselves persecuted anyone? Conversing in an effective manner around hre is a tall order, because everybody seems to be adamant that their position is the only one! And I am smart enough to know, that if I were at a party, in a room full of doctors, I would not talk medicine! And I don’t know about you, but I expect to hear,“Well done, my good and faithful servant!” The Holy Spirit has led me into more and more selfless service, than I ever could have done on my own!

 

[Nicea325]

It pains me greatly when I see division in God’s family; but I know that as you pointed out, pride on every side and from every faction, will hinder the unification of the Body!

I agree 100% and it is very sad.

 

[JRRTFAN]

What do they say when you provide them with (pre 312): Clement, Ploycarp, Ignacious, Iranius and Justine Martyr writings: One head being the bishop of Rome, The real presence, etc what do they say? I am very curious

Well, they don’t say anything. Their research is limited.

 

[jlhargus]

what was the main reason the puritans left the old country for the new?

JL: Persecution by the Protestant Church of England.

 

[zdon011]

W-R-O-N-G; no heresies here!

Your bald denial does nothing to refute the assertions raised in my previous post.

Your statements, which I was addressing, would be worrying even to your average ‘Sola Scriptura’ non-denominational Protestant pastor.

What is your understanding of heresy, if you are so sure you have expressed nothing of the sort?

To be fair, were I incorrigibly heterodox and ignorant of orthodoxy, no doubt I would declare myself incapable of heresy: with such conviction that only simple-mindedness can sustain.

 

[benedictus2]

I assume that you think that the Bible is a gift from the church of Rome. I believe it is given to us from God for our education in the faith. I place my trust in it’s words and teachings and gladly will let the chips fall where they may. Freedom of religion and all.

Did Jesus write a book or did He build a Church?

Don’t you think that if all Jesus wanted was for us to follow a book He would have spent His time on earth writing one?

Do you have any idea how the Bible came to be?

 

[CWBetts]

Your bald denial does nothing to refute the assertions raised in my previous post.

Your statements, which I was addressing, would be worrying even to your average ‘Sola Scriptura’ non-denominational Protestant pastor.

What is your understanding of heresy, if you are so sure you have expressed nothing of the sort?

To be fair, were I incorrigibly heterodox and ignorant of orthodoxy, no doubt I would declare myself incapable of heresy: with such conviction that only simple-mindedness can sustain.

Don’t expect a reasoned response. You are dealing with someone who’s standard MO is the one-liner.

 

[zdon011]

Jesus gave ALL of us the privilege of “doing this in remembrance of Me,” not just the apostles!

The Gospel tells us clearly that only the Twelve were with Christ at the Last Supper, and He had intentionally planned it to be so.
In the original Greek, the phrase ‘do this in remembrance’ has the special sense of offering sacrifice, something that only a special Levite/priest could do (remember what happened when Korah told Moses that all the Israelites had the right to act as priests?).
How is it that right from the time of the Apostles, for 1800 years, all Christians believed that the Eucharist was not for ‘everyone’ to celebrate?

For the relevant Scripture and Tradition, follow this link:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html