A question for OSASers

[on_fire]

I have a question for those who believe in OSAS .who are the people that the inspired word of God is talking to in the following passages:Math 6 14,15:you must forgive others their tresspasses or else God wont forgive yours.if you arent forgiven can you still go to Heaven?Math 5 29-30 gouge out your eye,cut off your hand…better to enter life without a member then to go to Gehenna intact…do whatever it takes to stop sinning.why maim yourself if it cant cause you to loose your salvation… Galatians 5:19-20. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Cor 6 9-10 is similiar… can OASAers do these and go to Heaven?

 

[Roblox84]

I didn’t realize you started a new thread. I will just cut and paste my post of that thread to here. That is if you don’t mind me adding to it?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

 

[on_fire]

no…thank you for posting it…I thought I could reach more people by startin a new thread…the other one has slowed down quite a bit…I have been with it since the start…

 

[brb3]

I have a question for those who believe in OSAS .who are the people that the inspired word of God is talking to in the following passages:Math 6 14,15:you must forgive others their tresspasses or else God wont forgive yours.if you arent forgiven can you still go to Heaven?Math 5 29-30 gouge out your eye,cut off your hand…better to enter life without a member then to go to Gehenna intact…do whatever it takes to stop sinning.why maim yourself if it cant cause you to loose your salvation… Galatians 5:19-20. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Cor 6 9-10 is similiar… can OASAers do these and go to Heaven?

Perhaps these are primarily directed to the unsaved … who read the scriptures too.

 

[brb3]

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

We can’t built a dogmatic teaching on basis of single scriptures in isolation.

 

[Roblox84]

We can’t built a dogmatic teaching on basis of single scriptures in isolation.

I’m not necessarily trying to prove a teaching. I would gladly just take an interpretation of this passage. That’s all.

 

[brb3]

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

key word is ‘deliberately’. As in what Judas did. And Christ said it would of been better if he had not been born.

I believe much of a Christian’s sinning is not deliberate, but via ignorance and flows from misinformation we are taught. The mystery for me is how one of faith can remain misinformed … and not be led by H.S. to the truth. How can Catholics and Protestants of genuine faith … hold beliefs so different ? Every year we learn of errant ideas on scripture we used to espouse. Perhaps its not so crucial we have perfect understanding of all scriptures … as long as we follow beatitudes, repent daily, and treat neighbor as ourselves.

 

[Roblox84]

key word is ‘deliberately’. As in what Judas did. And Christ said it would of been better if he had not been born.

I believe much of a Christian’s sinning is not deliberate, but via ignorance and flows from misinformation we are taught. The mystery for me is how one of faith can remain misinformed … and not be led by H.S. to the truth. How can Catholics and Protestants of genuine faith … hold beliefs so different ? Every year we learn of errant ideas on scripture we used to espouse. Perhaps its not so crucial we have perfect understanding of all scriptures … as long as we follow beatitudes, repent daily, and treat neighbor as ourselves.

See I would think most sin is deliberate. Sometimes I may do something wrong, but I think in advance that if I don’t get caught then it’s not wrong.

 

[kempo1]

key word is ‘deliberately’. As in what Judas did. And Christ said it would of been better if he had not been born.

I believe much of a Christian’s sinning is not deliberate, but via ignorance and flows from misinformation we are taught. The mystery for me is how one of faith can remain misinformed … and not be led by H.S. to the truth. How can Catholics and Protestants of genuine faith … hold beliefs so different ? Every year we learn of errant ideas on scripture we used to espouse. Perhaps its not so crucial we have perfect understanding of all scriptures … as long as we follow beatitudes, repent daily, and treat neighbor as ourselves.

well to me the question should then be asked, who had the truth first? who was the church that received direct teachings from the apostles? :shrug:what church has doctrines created by man and which one by Christ?

 

[kempo1]

See I would think most sin is deliberate. Sometimes I may do something wrong, but I think in advance that if I don’t get caught then it’s not wrong.

I dont think for instance, doing something say, out of anger is the same as a premeditated sin like plotting out getting drunk or trying to cause some trouble ,you know like planning it out.

 

[Roblox84]

I dont think for instance, doing something say, out of anger is the same as a premeditated sin like plotting out getting drunk or trying to cause some trouble ,you know like planning it out.

Oh for sure. But I would have to say a lot of people know before hand what their actions will be, yet still choose to do them.

What does the bible say about premeditated sin? Just curious if you have the passage handy or not.

 

[brb3]

See I would think most sin is deliberate. Sometimes I may do something wrong, but I think in advance that if I don’t get caught then it’s not wrong.

This is not c/w morality, as taught by Christ and Apostles. You need to pray for strength to overcome this ‘deliberate’ sin. If you don’t … you will get judged, you will get caught. You are acting selfishly here, thinking first of yourself … and not Christ and your neighbors. Breaking the two great commandments.

I know what I speak of. I got caught, judged, and suffered needlessly for my selfish ‘deliberate’ error.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have a question for those who believe in OSAS .who are the people that the inspired word of God is talking to in the following passages:Math 6 14,15:you must forgive others their tresspasses or else God wont forgive yours.if you arent forgiven can you still go to Heaven?Math 5 29-30 gouge out your eye,cut off your hand…better to enter life without a member then to go to Gehenna intact…do whatever it takes to stop sinning.why maim yourself if it cant cause you to loose your salvation… Galatians 5:19-20. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Cor 6 9-10 is similiar… can OASAers do these and go to Heaven?

My brother (pardon the pun… ),

I thought about you this weekend when I was doing the readings during Mass. It seems St. Paul was not preaching the OSAS theology when he penned 1st Corinthians. For in chapter 10, verses 11-12, he writes:

These things happened to them as an example,
and they have been written down as a warning to us,
upon whom the end of the ages has come.
Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure
should take care not to fall.

God Bless!

 

[on_fire]

Perhaps these are primarily directed to the unsaved … who read the scriptures too.

so the unsaved must stop sinning if they want to go to Heaven.but the saved can sin and even if they dont repent before they die they still go to Heaven?

 

[SSTeacher]

I have a question for those who believe in OSAS .who are the people that the inspired word of God is talking to in the following passages:Math 6 14,15:you must forgive others their tresspasses or else God wont forgive yours.if you arent forgiven can you still go to Heaven?Math 5 29-30 gouge out your eye,cut off your hand…better to enter life without a member then to go to Gehenna intact…do whatever it takes to stop sinning.why maim yourself if it cant cause you to loose your salvation… Galatians 5:19-20. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Cor 6 9-10 is similiar… can OASAers do these and go to Heaven?

Theoretically, yes.

But in practice the sinner would continually grow in holiness and be sinning less and less as time passed as a result of God continuing to work in that sinner’s life.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[elvisman]

key word is ‘deliberately’. As in what Judas did. And Christ said it would of been better if he had not been born.

I believe much of a Christian’s sinning is not deliberate, but via ignorance and flows from misinformation we are taught. The mystery for me is how one of faith can remain misinformed … and not be led by H.S. to the truth. How can Catholics and Protestants of genuine faith … hold beliefs so different ? Every year we learn of errant ideas on scripture we used to espouse. Perhaps its not so crucial we have perfect understanding of all scriptures … as long as we follow beatitudes, repent daily, and treat neighbor as ourselves.

See I would think most sin is deliberate. Sometimes I may do something wrong, but I think in advance that if I don’t get caught then it’s not wrong.

ALL sin is deliberate - whether it be by action or inaction.

The Church teaches that those who are ignorant of whether or not something is sinful are less culpable - if not totally inculpable - of that sin. This is part of what is known as invincible ignorance and is based on:
**John 9:41
**Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains."

 

[elvisman]

We can’t built a dogmatic teaching on basis of single scriptures in isolation.

Actually - that’s not true. BUT, I’ll give you a few more anyway:
Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-22****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

---

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

---

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

---

**Matthew 10:22 - ****All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. **

---

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me".

---

**1 Corinthians 9:27 - ****No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. **

---

**Hebrews 3:6 - ****But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. **

---

**2 Peter 3:17 - ****Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. **

---

**1 John 2:24 - ****See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. **

 

[brb3]

**

Actually - that’s not true. BUT**, I’ll give you a few more anyway:
Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-22****
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

---

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

---

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

---

**Matthew 10:22 - **All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

---

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me".

---

**1 Corinthians 9:27 - **No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

---

**Hebrews 3:6 - **But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

---

**2 Peter 3:17 - **Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

---

**1 John 2:24 - **See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

Now you are talking Giving us the full scriptural teachings we need to formulate valid soteriology. OSAS is valid … but, only when one perseveres to the End Day. John MacArthur teaches [OSAS = Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance to Last Day]. This definition a Catholic can accept as scriptural.

 

[elvisman]

Now you are talking Giving us the full scriptural teachings we need to formulate valid soteriology. OSAS is valid … but, only when one perseveres to the End Day. John MacArthur teaches [OSAS = Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance to Last Day]. This definition a Catholic can accept as scriptural.

**Not to be argumentative - but it’s not something we can accept. **Spiritual rebirth is not salvation. Spiritual rebirth is just that - rebirth.
We are reborn at Baptism (John 3:5).

Slavation is a process - not a one-time event. The Scriptures are very clear on this. The following Scriptures speak to faithful believers who are warned not to fall away from the Truth - and the hope of our reward - IF we remain faithful:
**Rom. 11:22, ****Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Pet. 2:20-21, ****Matt. 7:21, ****Luke 12:42-46, ****Luke 8:13, ****John 15:1-10, ****1 Cor. 15:1-2, ****1 Cor. 9:23-27, ****Gal. 5:1-4, ****Heb. 3:12, **Heb. 10:23-29

**Why would we need to HOPE for our heavenly reward if we already had a guarantee? **
Answer: The Scriptures are VERY clear that there is no guarantee - but a wonderful promise - IF we remain faithful. OSAS adherents tend to take passages out of context to prove their point. BUT - if they were to read the Scriptures in CONTEXT - as they are intended - there is simply *no *escaping the truith.

Lastly - I would suggest that unless you are very grounded in your Catholic faith that you not listen to John MacArthur. He is a virulent anti-Catholic who spews all sorts of hateful lies and half-truths about the Church. I have tapes and articles of his that are amazingingly skewed as they are historically and ecclesiastically ignorant.**

 

[Masters_Servant]

I have a question for those who believe in OSAS .who are the people that the inspired word of God is talking to in the following passages:Math 6 14,15:you must forgive others their tresspasses or else God wont forgive yours.if you arent forgiven can you still go to Heaven?Math 5 29-30 gouge out your eye,cut off your hand…better to enter life without a member then to go to Gehenna intact…do whatever it takes to stop sinning.why maim yourself if it cant cause you to loose your salvation… Galatians 5:19-20. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Cor 6 9-10 is similiar… can OASAers do these and go to Heaven?

LOL…Scripture tells us that whom God sets His love on are the saved, the called, the elect; so it is not an issue even worth debating. If you have been called according to His purpose, then will you thwart His purpose?..LOL I don’t think so. The real issue is can you identify those that are called and those that are not? That is subjective on the outside but we will know them by their “fruits”, but there are some real good fakers out there., but according to God and my own experience, you can know.

i cannot think of a single concrete example in Scripture where someone was saved, lost that salvation, then regained it and so on. there is good reason for that; it doesn’t exist. No one loses something they never had to begin with, but people do lose things they thought they had. and perception is ones reality.