A question for OSASers

[Masters_Servant]

I didn’t realize you started a new thread. I will just cut and paste my post of that thread to here. That is if you don’t mind me adding to it?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

Once lost then forever lost? LOL Don’t confuse head knowledge with heart knowledge; they are completely different; ever heard of the parable of the soils or the wheat and the tares; you might want to do an indepth study on those two parables to gain a better understanding on the entire subject from God’s own perspective. Just a thought, that’s all.

 

[Masters_Servant]

We can’t built a dogmatic teaching on basis of single scriptures in isolation.

That is how most errors in theology and false religions are built upon; a single passage to a few passages - you make a good point worth noting, but I think most people understand this; Scripture almost always, if not always validates itself, part of why it is SUPERNATURAL.

 

[Masters_Servant]

My brother (pardon the pun… ),

I thought about you this weekend when I was doing the readings during Mass. It seems St. Paul was not preaching the OSAS theology when he penned 1st Corinthians. For in chapter 10, verses 11-12, he writes:

God Bless!

Reading and understanding what god is saying are two different things; I see you can read, but what does God mean in this? When you find the answer or discover the answer, then you will see it is unrelated to the topic or the implication you asserted, perhaps you could have your priest sit down and explain it to you…i don’t know. I do know it is not what you seem to imply.

 

[NotWorthy]

i cannot think of a single concrete example in Scripture where someone was saved, lost that salvation, then regained it and so on. there is good reason for that; it doesn’t exist. No one loses something they never had to begin with, but people do lose things they thought they had. and perception is ones reality.

I would think the Parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of someone having his salvation, losing it, and then regaining it.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Now you are talking Giving us the full scriptural teachings we need to formulate valid soteriology. OSAS is valid … but, only when one perseveres to the End Day. John MacArthur teaches [OSAS = Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance to Last Day]. This definition a Catholic can accept as scriptural.

Actually it is Christian is OSAS and will persevere as a result; that would be MacArthur’s teaching and more importantly God’s teaching; since He is the one who does the saving and enables the power within the believer via the HS to persevere.

 

[brb3]

**

**Spiritual rebirth is not salvation. Spiritual rebirth is just that - rebirth.
We are reborn at Baptism (John 3:5).

Born of Baptismal Waters & Born of Holy Spirit. It takes both. Either continguous in time … as case for Paul [spirit first, then water] … or separated by considerable time, [Normative for most Catholics].

 

[elvisman]

Actually it is Christian is OSAS and will persevere as a result; that would be MacArthur’s teaching and more importantly God’s teaching; since He is the one who does the saving and enables the power within the believer via the HS to persevere.

Did you mean the Prodigal Son?

 

[elvisman]

i cannot think of a single concrete example in Scripture where someone was saved, lost that salvation, then regained it and so on. there is good reason for that; it doesn’t exist. No one loses something they never had to begin with, but people do lose things they thought they had. and perception is ones reality.

WRONG.
Judas was chosen - hand-picked by Jesus (John 6:70).
He cast out demons and performed miracles in Jesus’ name(Matt. 10:1, Mark 6:7-13, Luke 9:1-2).

In the end he lost it and Jesus said of him: "…but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born" (Matt. 26-24).

**Finally, as I already pointed out – Slavation is a process - **not **a one-time event. The Scriptures are very clear on this. **
The following verses speak to faithful believers who are warned not to fall away from the Truth - and the hope of our reward - IF we remain faithful:
1 John 2:24, Rom. 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 10:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor.s 9:27, Heb. 3:6, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:24.

---

You cannot lose what you never had - but none of us here on earth are fully saved until we die because any one of us can fall.
The Scriptures are VERY clear that there is no guarantee - but a wonderful promise - IF**** we remain faithful.****

 

[NotWorthy]

Reading and understanding what god is saying are two different things; I see you can read, but what does God mean in this? When you find the answer or discover the answer, then you will see it is unrelated to the topic or the implication you asserted,** perhaps you could have your priest sit down and explain it to you**…i don’t know. I do know it is not what you seem to imply.

Ah, Sarcasm. I love it!

It seems that, first of all, Paul is talking to his fellow Christians, as his address to the Corinthians begins with*** Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy**, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours*.

Then Chapter 10 covers several instances of Israel who, although they were part of the Covenant with God (through Moses), rebelled and fell out of favor with God. I don’t think I’m IMPLYING that the Christians in Corinth are in danger of falling out of favor with God and losing their inheritance. I’m SAYING that the Christians in Corinth are in danger of falling out of favor with God and losing their inheritance.

OSAS? I think not.

 

[Masters_Servant]

I would think the Parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of someone having his salvation, losing it, and then regaining it.

That is a first; the parable is Jesus answering the question ask of Him “who is my neighbor”. It is a parable and the characters are not real; they are made up examples. There is one possible exception that theologians have debated and that is the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Born of Baptismal Waters & Born of Holy Spirit. It takes both. Either continguous in time … as case for Paul [spirit first, then water] … or separated by considerable time, [Normative for most Catholics].

John 3:5 has nothing to do with water baptism; it does refer to spiritual cleansing, which only God can do and is referenced in the OT. Don’t overlook who Jesus is speaking to; a Jewish spiritual leader, water baptism would have never entered his mind, but the water purification ceremony in the OT would have.

Spiritual cleansing is referencing the true repentant heart and thus what follows is the receiving of the Holy Spirit; which seals the believer till the day of full redemption.

 

[Masters_Servant]

**Did you mean **the Prodigal Son?

Well written wasn’t it? I can’t even tell what i wrote there. Let me try once more. Once a Christian, then always a Christian and the perseverance will reflect that fact and it is god working inside the believer (Holy Spirit) which enables and ensures a person will persevere.

 

[Masters_Servant]

WRONG.
**Judas **was chosen - hand-picked by Jesus (John 6:70).
He cast out demons and performed miracles in Jesus’ name(Matt. 10:1, Mark 6:7-13, Luke 9:1-2).

In the end he lost it and Jesus said of him: "…but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born" (Matt. 26-24).

Finally, as I already pointed out – Slavation is a process - **not a one-time event. The Scriptures are very clear on this.
The following verses speak to faithful believers who are warned not to fall away from the Truth - and the hope of our reward - **IF we remain faithful:
1 John 2:24, Rom. 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 10:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor.s 9:27, Heb. 3:6, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:24.

---

You cannot lose what you never had - but none of us here on earth are fully saved until we die because any one of us can fall.
The Scriptures are VERY clear that there is no guarantee - but a wonderful promise - IF**** we remain faithful.****

Judas was a chosen instrument, the son of perdition; I can’t even believe you used that as an example.

Actually Salvation is both a process and a one time event; it is one of many paradoxes in the Bible. One is manifested during the life of the believer whereas the other was purposed by God before anyone was ever created. So it depends on which perspective you look at it from, for the Bible teaches both.

Perhaps you have no guarantee, but the Bible teaches otherwise that Christians can know with certainty (1 John5 ) is one example, but not everyone is willing to let go of the fear they carry of doing something wrong, and to fully trust in Jesus for salvation. Consider the realization that everyday we do something wrong or sin in Gods sight, that is why the Bible refers to Salvation as a “gift” . I’m not saying you are one of those; I don’t know you. I do know Christians that can’t accept that the Bible teaches “election”; i do not understand why they don’t since it is all over the Scripture, but many do not. I guess it is part of the fallen nature and pride that prevents one from fully letting go and putting full trust in Christ.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Ah, Sarcasm. I love it!

It seems that, first of all, Paul is talking to his fellow Christians, as his address to the Corinthians begins with*** Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy***, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

Then Chapter 10 covers several instances of Israel who, although they were part of the Covenant with God (through Moses), rebelled and fell out of favor with God. I don’t think I’m IMPLYING that the Christians in Corinth are in danger of falling out of favor with God and losing their inheritance. I’m SAYING that the Christians in Corinth are in danger of falling out of favor with God and losing their inheritance.

OSAS? I think not.

As I said; perhaps you could sit down with your priest and ask for his opinion on the passage. You can call it sarcasm, but I was serious.

 

[NotWorthy]

That is a first; the parable is Jesus answering the question ask of Him “who is my neighbor”. It is a parable and the characters are not real; they are made up examples. There is one possible exception that theologians have debated and that is the rich man and Lazarus.

Ah, blast it. uch:I meant the Prodigal Son, not the Good Samaritan. The words of the Father at the end explain away OSAS.
But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’”

 

[NotWorthy]

John 3:5 has nothing to do with water baptism; it does refer to spiritual cleansing, which only God can do and is referenced in the OT. Don’t overlook who Jesus is speaking to; a Jewish spiritual leader, water baptism would have never entered his mind, but the water purification ceremony in the OT would have.

Spiritual cleansing is referencing the true repentant heart and thus what follows is the receiving of the Holy Spirit; which seals the believer till the day of full redemption.

John 3 has EVERYTHING to do with Baptism. If the reader had ANY doubt what Jesus meant, he simply needs to read on just a few verses. ***22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. ***
Context, Context, Context

 

[NotWorthy]

Well written wasn’t it? I can’t even tell what i wrote there. Let me try once more. Once a Christian, then always a Christian and the perseverance will reflect that fact and it is god working inside the believer (Holy Spirit) which enables and ensures a person will persevere.

OK, I’m curious. If the son had not come back to the father, would he have been considered saved. Jesus makes it clear that the son was alive, then died, then was alive again.

 

[NotWorthy]

As I said; perhaps you could sit down with your priest and ask for his opinion on the passage. You can call it sarcasm, but I was serious.

Instead of explaining away your (lack of) sarcasm, why don’t you address the point. St. Paul was urging the saved Christians not to Fall.

 

[elvisman]

Judas was a chosen instrument, the son of perdition; I can’t even believe you used that as an example.

Actually Salvation is both a process and a one time event; it is one of many paradoxes in the Bible. One is manifested during the life of the believer whereas the other was purposed by God before anyone was ever created. So it depends on which perspective you look at it from, for the Bible teaches both.

Perhaps you have no guarantee, but the Bible teaches otherwise that Christians can know with certainty (1 John5 ) is one example, but not everyone is willing to let go of the fear they carry of doing something wrong, and to fully trust in Jesus for salvation. Consider the realization that everyday we do something wrong or sin in Gods sight, that is why the Bible refers to Salvation as a “gift” . I’m not saying you are one of those; I don’t know you. I do know Christians that can’t accept that the Bible teaches “election”; i do not understand why they don’t since it is all over the Scripture, but many do not. I guess it is part of the fallen nature and pride that prevents one from fully letting go and putting full trust in Christ.

Well, my friend - you don’t seem to understand context.

For example - then the Bible speaks of “faith” - it does not refer to a mere intellectual ascent to belief or acknowledgement of who God is. Remember - even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

In the Scriptures - Salvation is CLEARLY a process. The passages I provided state this in no uncertain terms (1 John 2:24, Rom. 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 10:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor.s 9:27, Heb. 3:6, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:24). you mistake spiritual rebirth for final sanctification. Other Protestants mistake Redemption for Salvation.
Guess what? The entire world - ALL of mankind was redeemed on Calvary - not just Christians. All redemption means is “paid for”. Whereas we were ALL paid for - only some will be saved.

---

**We, as Christians know that the Scriptures do not and cannot contradict themselves - we are left with the reality that they must be in concert with one another - they compliment each other. When people like you snatch a verse here and there and attempt to make it say what it clearly does NOT in context - then errors are born. **

---

This is why the tragedy of Protestantism in all its constantly splintering factions exists.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Ah, blast it. uch:I meant the Prodigal Son, not the Good Samaritan. The words of the Father at the end explain away OSAS.
But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’”

He was lost (spiritually dead); why do you think he wanted his inheritance before his father was dead, because he was full of pride and arrogance. Not until he hit rock-bottom did he come before his father in ALL humility; it was that that point where he confessed his sin with a sincere heart and was what? found or saved.

You cannot debunk OSAS; it is all over the NT; you can only debate who is really a Christian and who is not, which is subjective and is why this debate continues. It is why some say you can’t loose what you never had, which with salvation this is true. So it comes back to who is really saved and who is not; for the person that perceives he is saved, then perceives he is then lost; that becomes his reality - for ones perception is one’s reality. One can loose something they perceive that they have and many do and likewise they can perceive to regain that which they perceived to have lost, but perception never changes God’s reality and gift of salvation nor can anyone take back what God has purposed to give unless one perceives themselves as greater than God or misunderstand the true nature of God and the gift of salvation as taught in Scripture.

This is why no one can give an example of one that was saved, then not saved, then saved before they died. If the doctrine were true, then it would be very relevant throughout Scripture because it gets to the core of salvation, but it simply isn’t their. This is why I say the debate is really over “who is really a Christian and who is not”? Only the Christian will know that according to Scripture, we can know someone and see the fruits of righteousness in their lives and drawl the conclusion that this person is of God, but as I stated earlier, there are a lot of people playing church and doing/saying all the right things and have never dealt with their sin issue and come before God as a beggar to receive that gift. Dealing with sin, the Prodigal son is a great spiritual lesson on this; dealing with ones sin in all humility before the father; something most professing Christians have never truly dealt with, which is why we have passages such as Matthew 7:13-14.