A question for OSASers

[elvisman]

Of course the Bible isn’t a lie. It’s your and my understandings that can be wrong.​

What are you speaking about when you say, ‘they speak to a person …’? That does this have to do with the verses in Heb 6? How do we know who’s fallen away? We don’t know; we are told to speak the truth in love.

It means that Heb. 6 is about persons who return to sin and are impenitent.
EVERYBODY has a chance to repent after falling back into sin. Some make the decisions NOT to repent.

 

[elvisman]

OSAS proponents understand the ONGOING aspect of their salvations. They have been saved, they are saved, and if they persevere they WILL be saved. However, regarding their futures … they trust Christ to preserve them til their last day. They trust the Son to deliver them to the Father, on their last day. They read in scripture where Christ says he ‘will never leave or forsake them’. They read in scriptures where Christ says ‘if we ask anything in his name, he will grant our petitions’. So, OSAS proponents pray to the Son to help them persevere … and they KNOW He will honor his WORD in scripture, as recorded by John, Peter, and Paul.

Its time you incorporate some OSAS scriptural passages into your daily meditations. Salvation Assurance is not something to desire to discredit / debunk. It is of the highest value to a disciple. Christ knew this is needful for his disciples, and gave such assurance to the Thief on the Cross. Would He do any less for you / I ?

HUH?
Do you understand what you are saying? You’re saying that we have no choice in the matter and that God will MAKE us persevere. This is the absurdity of OSAS - that it denies free will.

It’s time for YOU to stop identifying yourself as “Catholic” when you clearly do not espouse the doctrines of the Church - but reject them.

PS - you never refuted the verses I provided. HOW do they fit your view on OSAS?

Hint: They don’t.

 

[Dokimas]

It means that Heb. 6 is about persons who return to sin and are impenitent.
EVERYBODY has a chance to repent after falling back into sin. Some make the decisions NOT to repent.

So are you saying as long as a person repents, they’ll always be forgiven?

What does the following mean?

Hebrews 12:
12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.
17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing,** he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.**

 

[NotWorthy]

Read post #125.

As I originally stated to Dokimas,

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6421305#post6421305) 				
  		I think you've tried to be most  cordial with Elvis, but you let him get under your skin (which, I  believe, you are trying to apologize for).

Now, the reason for my post,

I think we should **ALL **remember St. Peter’s words ***Always be ready to give an explanation ***to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

was a subtle reminder for all of us to remember Peter’s words.

Dokimas seemed to have got my hint. But you, Elvis, seemed to have ignored it. Your bullying tactics are so abrasive that most readers lose the point that you are trying to make. Maybe by most readers, I just mean “ME”, but I have a feeling that this is not the case.

Please re-read my quote of St. Peter’s and receive it with the intent that the Holy Spirit meant it.

Peace, my brother(s)!

 

[NotWorthy]

It means that Heb. 6 is about persons who return to sin and are impenitent.
EVERYBODY has a chance to repent after falling back into sin. Some make the decisions NOT to repent.

As proof of Elvis’ words, look at (I believe) 2nd Corinthians, where St. Paul asks the Church to kick out the man having an affair with his mother in law. Why, so that he can repent and return to the Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

So are you saying as long as a person repents, they’ll always be forgiven?

What does the following mean?

Hebrews 12:
12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.
17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing,** he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.**

Doesn’t this mean that he sought repentance, but he never could repent.

Wanting something and actually doing it are two different things.

It’s interesting that I find the NAB version a little different.

For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit his father’s blessing, he was rejected because he found no opportunity to change his mind, even though he sought the blessing with tears.

 

[elvisman]

So are you saying as long as a person repents, they’ll always be forgiven?

What does the following mean?

Hebrews 12:
12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.
17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing,** he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.**

READ CAREFULLY:
"For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears . . ."
Read the blue text. His was not a genuine repentance.
**You can talk the talk when it somes to repentance - but are you actually penitent? **
**(not you - this is hypothetical).

 

[Dokimas]

As proof of Elvis’ words, look at (I believe) 2nd Corinthians, where St. Paul asks the Church to kick out the man having an affair with his mother in law. Why, so that he can repent and return to the Church.

Actually I believe it’s in 1 Corinthians 5:1ff. It’s in 2 Corinthians 7:12 that the person was restored.

 

[Dokimas]

READ CAREFULLY:
"For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears . . ."
Read the blue text. His was not a genuine repentance.
You can talk the talk when it somes to repentance - but are you actually penitent?
**(not *you ***- this is hypothetical).

Yes, God sees the heart. Totally agree.

 

[Dokimas]

Doesn’t this mean that he sought repentance, but he never could repent.

Wanting something and actually doing it are two different things.

It’s interesting that I find the NAB version a little different.

As a parent and former teacher, my kids and students would say they were sorry. At times if was obvious they were in such a spot that the underlieing reason for ‘repenting’ was becasue they were caught, not because they really were sorry for their wrong actions.​

I’m sure Esau said the right words but his heart was in the wrong place so he did not receive what he asked for.

I’m thinking that’s what was going on in theHebrews 6 verses I quoted earlier. However, I’m glad God is in control and He’ll do what He’ll do no matter what I believe.

 

[elvisman]

Dokimas seemed to have got my hint. But you, Elvis, seemed to have ignored it. Your bullying tactics are so abrasive that most readers lose the point that you are trying to make. Maybe by most readers, I just mean “ME”, but I have a feeling that this is not the case.

Please re-read my quote of St. Peter’s and receive it with the intent that the Holy Spirit meant it.

Peace, my brother(s)!

It’s not bullying - it is using a firm hand to correct and admonish the unruly and assaultive. not somebody who makes a mistake or doesn’t mean any harm. Some anti-Catholics bolt right out of the gate with a huge chip on their shoulder and a sharp tongue to lash out.

I know well the words of Peter (1 Pet. 3:15-16) and I also know the words of Jesus Matt. 10:14-16 and actions of Paul (Acts 13:51).

I would rather have mutually charitable discourse, free from arguments but full of passion. Unfortunately - assaultive behavior must sometimes be met with a stern hand.

 

[Dokimas]

**It’s not bullying **- it is using a firm hand to correct and admonish the unruly and assaultive. not somebody who makes a mistake or doesn’t mean any harm. Some anti-Catholics bolt right out of the gate with a huge chip on their shoulder and a sharp tongue to lash out.

I know well the words of Peter (1 Pet. 3:15-16) and I also know the words of Jesus Matt. 10:14-16 and actions of Paul (Acts 13:51).

I would rather have mutually charitable discourse, free from arguments but full of passion. Unfortunately - assaultive behavior must sometimes be met with a stern hand.

Gee, Elvis, my point exactly but I’m only a lowly non-catholic Christian. The Christian part is even debatable, right Elvis?

 

[Dokimas]

**It’s not bullying **- it is using a firm hand to correct and admonish the unruly and assaultive. not somebody who makes a mistake or doesn’t mean any harm. Some anti-Catholics bolt right out of the gate with a huge chip on their shoulder and a sharp tongue to lash out.

I know well the words of Peter (1 Pet. 3:15-16) and I also know the words of Jesus Matt. 10:14-16 and actions of Paul (Acts 13:51).

I would rather have mutually charitable discourse, free from arguments but full of passion. Unfortunately - assaultive behavior must sometimes be met with a stern hand.

With this post being about me, please get the moderators involve as you threatened you would. I’d love their (name removed by moderator)ut. As I said before, I’m willing to submit to their opinion, are you?

 

[elvisman]

Gee, Elvis, my point exactly but I’m only a lowly non-catholic Christian. The Christian part is even debatable, right Elvis?

Not sure what you mean.
If you profess that Christ died for your sins and rose from the dead to bring us eternal life and are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - you are a Christian.

However, the fullness of the Christian faith can only be found and experienced in the Catholic Church. Jesus set it up that way - I didn’t.

 

[NotWorthy]

Actually I believe it’s in 1 Corinthians 5:1ff. It’s in 2 Corinthians 7:12 that the person was restored.

Thanks for the reference. I don’t see how 2 Cor. 7:12 shows his repentance (but that’s not important to the point).

But you do see how Paul is saying that

1. There is one among the saints in Corinth.
2. Who has sinned a grievous sin.
3. Paul hopes that his spirit is saved on the day of the Lord.

That would seem to imply that
a) one can be saved.
b) one can lose that salvation.
c) one can repent and be saved again.

 

[NotWorthy]

As a parent and former teacher, my kids and students would say they were sorry. At times if was obvious they were in such a spot that the underlieing reason for ‘repenting’ was becasue they were caught, not because they really were sorry for their wrong actions.

Ahhh… the “Tiger Woods Syndrome”, formerly known as the “Bill Clinton Syndrome”!!! Is that what you mean? ​

I’m sure Esau said the right words but his heart was in the wrong place so he did not receive what he asked for.

I’m thinking that’s what was going on in the Hebrews 6 verses I quoted earlier. However, I’m glad God is in control and He’ll do what He’ll do no matter what I believe.

But what you believe is what’s in your heart, right? He’ll do what He does depending on what is in your heart! In other words, it’s not what you believe, but the way you act on what you believe. I think St. Paul calls this the “Obedience of Faith” in Romans.

Tangent alert! I think we are in danger of “falling away” (pardon the pun) of the topic of OSAS.

 

[NotWorthy]

**It’s not bullying **- it is using a firm hand to correct and admonish the unruly and assaultive. not somebody who makes a mistake or doesn’t mean any harm. Some anti-Catholics bolt right out of the gate with a huge chip on their shoulder and a sharp tongue to lash out.

I know well the words of Peter (1 Pet. 3:15-16) and I also know the words of Jesus Matt. 10:14-16 and actions of Paul (Acts 13:51).

I would rather have mutually charitable discourse, free from arguments but full of passion. Unfortunately - assaultive behavior must sometimes be met with a stern hand.

Elvis, I wonder if your name in Hebrew means “Bull in a China Shop”.

I don’t think Dokimas can be listed as an “Anti-Catholic”. And if he is, let him hang himself with his own rope! For his anti-catholic rhetoric would show him to be the fool.

In the mean time, your bullying tactics are a turn-off. If I was a Christian looking for the truth and I came to this site to investigate Catholicism, your tactics would turn me away in a heart-beat.

I may be the only one that feels this way. Actually, I HOPE I’m the only one that feels this way. But I have a feeling that this is not the case.

 

[Dokimas]

Thanks for the reference. I don’t see how 2 Cor. 7:12 shows his repentance (but that’s not important to the point).

But you do see how Paul is saying that

1. There is one among the saints in Corinth.
2. Who has sinned a grievous sin.
3. Paul hopes that his spirit is saved on the day of the Lord.

That would seem to imply that
a) one can be saved.
b) one can lose that salvation.
c) one can repent and be saved again.

OOPS I gave you the wrong reference:

2 Cor 2:
5 ¶ But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent–not to be too severe.
6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man,
7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow.
8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.
9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.
10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ,
11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

 

[NotWorthy]

OOPS I gave you the wrong reference:

2 Cor 2:
5 ¶ But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent–not to be too severe.
6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man,
7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow.
8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.
9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.
10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ,
11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Thanks for the clarification, brother!

But again:

But you do see how Paul is saying that

1. There is one among the saints in Corinth.
2. Who has sinned a grievous sin.
3. Paul hopes that his spirit is saved on the day of the Lord.

That would seem to imply that
a) one can be saved.
b) one can lose that salvation.
c) one can repent and be saved again.

 

[brb3]

HUH?
**Do you understand **what you are saying? You’re saying that we have no choice in the matter and that God will MAKE us persevere. This is the absurdity of OSAS - that it denies free will.

It’s time for YOU to stop identifying yourself as “Catholic” when you clearly do not espouse the doctrines of the Church - but reject them.

Yes, Salvation Assurance is a very Catholic idea. Originated with the O.T. Prophets, written of by David, and later in N.T. by the Apostles, etc.

Taught by St. Teresa of Avila, in her book INTERIOR CASTLE, the teaching thereof being primarily responsible for her being given sainthood. For her … Salvation = Rebirth + Perseverance, and Salvation Assurance was realized at the 3rd Mansion of the Soul.