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NotWorthy
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brb, did St. Teresa teach that when one is baptized in the faith, that they would ALWAYS persevere?
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brb3
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Reading her book tonite. I’m reading about the 4th Mansion at this time.
Actually we cycle thru the various levels, but generally we trend from level 1 toward 7. On the day of our conversion, our Rebirth and Adoption, we may briefly taste level 7 … having been forgiven of All sins and introduced to the Father by the Son, receiving H.S. from both. But, soon comes trials and reality of living in a corrupted world. Most will generally settle back into level 1.
If we mature rapidly, we should Normatively move on to level 2 or 3. Sadly, many stay at level 1 … which is the danger zone [shallow roots, still on diet of milk … yet to be weaned]. Perseverance is critical at ALL levels, but we are most vulnerable at level 1 to the ‘snakes & serpents’.
Hope to finish her book tomorrow. Its very good !! I’m learning alot.
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elvisman
Guest
Notworthy -Elvis, I wonder if your name in Hebrew means “Bull in a China Shop”.
I don’t think Dokimas can be listed as an “Anti-Catholic”. And if he is, let him hang himself with his own rope! For his anti-catholic rhetoric would show him to be the fool.
In the mean time, your bullying tactics are a turn-off. If I was a Christian looking for the truth and I came to this site to investigate Catholicism, your tactics would turn me away in a heart-beat.
I may be the only one that feels this way. Actually, I HOPE I’m the only one that feels this way. But I have a feeling that this is not the case.
I think that you truly believe you are looking out for what’s best.
**If you feel the need to call me out every time I deal with a person who assaults the Church or my faith - or one is not being honest or is being antagonistic, feel free to call me out on it. **
**However, it won’t change my position, as I will always defend the Church in the face of these antagonists, but I harbor no ill will towared you because your intentions seem pure.
That being said - would hope that you would be willing to be as frank with some of those who are antagonistic on these forums against the Catholic Church. ** So far - it seems that you are not. **
I am not here to make you feel better. I am here to share the Catholic faith and defend it against those whose sole purpose, it seems is to besmirch it with lies, innuendo and half-truths.
God bless.
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elvisman
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Sorry - but you’re wrong.
The Church teaches that we have a moral assurance of salvation - NOT a guarantee. Please do not misrepresent the Church in this way.
If St. Teresa of Avila believed that we had a guarantee - which I believe she did NOT - then she weas wrong. N****ot being the head of the Church - she is not protected by the charism of infalliblility.
If you believe in OSAS - which the Church not only disagrees with but condemns - please identify this belief as your own - and NOT the church’s.
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NotWorthy
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Elvis, I find that I am often harder on my brother Catholics that are harsh and abrasive than I am to Non-Catholics.Notworthy -
**I think that you truly **believe you are looking out for what’s best.
If you feel the need to call me out every time I deal with a person who assaults the Church or my faith - or one is not being honest or is being antagonistic, feel free to call me out on it.
**However, it *won’t ***change my position, as I will always defend the Church in the face of these antagonists, but I harbor no ill will towared you because your intentions seem pure.
That being said - would hope that you would be willing to be as frank with some of those who are antagonistic on these forums against the Catholic Church. ** So far - it seems that you are not**.
**I am not **here to make you feel better. I am here to share the Catholic faith and defend it against those whose sole purpose, it seems is to besmirch it with lies, innuendo and half-truths.
God bless.
But that is because I hold my brother Catholics to a higher standard. Understanding that they have received the Fullness of Truth, I expect more from them.
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Dokimas
Guest
BRB3, as I look at your quote quoted by Elvis, I saw the word assurance and NOT the word guarantee.
I’m wondering how these fit in? New King James Version. BTW, Elvis, I’m making NO interpretation or agrument for or against anything. I’m ONLY sharing verses.2Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2Co 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
From Online Bible Greek English lexicon728 αρραβων arrhabon ar-hrab-ohn’
of Hebrew origin ןוברע, 06162; TDNT-1:475,80; n m
AV-earnest 3; 3
- an earnest
1a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
- αρραβων arrabon; of Heb. or. [06162]; an earnest (a part payment in advance for security):–
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brb3
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Exactly ! Elvis is as he says “hard core”. His dogmatic ‘words’ often come back to discredit his debate points.
We must remember its the ‘spirit’ that saves … the ‘letter’ kills [per Paul].
He thinks he understands St. Teresa of Avila. Let me quote her from INTERIOR CASTLE …
“To those who by the mercy of God have overcome in these combats, and by dint of PERSEVERENCE have entered the 3rd Mansions, what shall we say but “Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord?” … We shall certainly be right in calling such a man blessed, for, unless he turns back, he IS, so far as we can tell, ON THE STRAIGHT ROAD TO SALVATION. Here sisters, you will see the importance of having overcome in your past battles; for I AM CONVINCED THAT THE LORD NEVER FAILS to give to a person who does this SECURITY OF CONSCIENCE, which is no small blessing. I say ‘SECURITY …UNLESS HE STRAYS FROM THE PATH on which he has set out.’ … So I think, daughters, that the happiness we should pray for IS TO ENJOY THE COMPLETE SECURITY OF THE BLESSED …”
“convinced that the lord never fails to give us security of conscience” …
“enjoy the complete security of the blessed”
aka, salvation assurance …OSAS, [provided we persevere]
Hey, Elvis … we love U man, its good to be zealous for the faith. But, its more important we be humble & charitable … per St. Teresa. Too much dogmatic legalism, kills. The spirit of the law, saves ---- so teaches the Catholic Fathers.
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NotWorthy
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I always imagine St. Jerome as being, shall we say, “less humble” when he would talk the faith. I think its his “refutations to Rufus” (?) that makes me envision him as a crotchety old man (think Ed Grant) who tolerated little or no dissent.
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fbl9
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Note unless he turns back, that says then he has lost salvation.
Security of conscience: does not mean that one is assured they are saved, it means one is secure in what they have done is pleasing to God.
aka unless we do our part we won’t be saved… that means making the daily choice of following our Lord.
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brb3
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NotWorthy
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There’s something that’s just not right with this statement.
The Good Shepherd DOES provide for our security. And Christ DOES give us the grace to persevere.
But we have to accept this Grace and security. It’s not a DONE DEAL.
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brb3
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Can anyone EVER come to knowledge of Christ … w/o God’s mercy and grace ?
Same applies to those who have wandered away from the fold … Christ’s spirit seeks them out, and they are restored again to the Father. In fact … we know the Father will meet them half-way on their return. God never FORCES his will on anyone. But, His invitation is ‘irresistable’.
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NotWorthy
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His invitation is irresistible? I don’t think that’s in Catholic teaching, for it eliminates free will.
Does the Catechism back this?
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brb3
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I’d guess it would. I know the scriptures do. What are the scriptures, if not a love letter to humanity? First to the Jews, but also the Gentiles. “Whosoever will may come”.
John 3:16 … we all know by heart.
And about Love. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. Chp. 13 … what it entails. Love w/o free will is a farce. We all know this, our life experience teaches us so. And, what bride was not irresistably drawn to her spouse by his proposal … excepting a few ‘shotgun’ marriages
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NotWorthy
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You see, brb3, this is where you confuse me. Your previous post seemed to rule out free will when you use the term “irresistible force”. And then you pull out “love without free will is a farce”.I’d guess it would. I know the scriptures do. What are the scriptures, if not a love letter to humanity? First to the Jews, but also the Gentiles. “Whosoever will may come”.
John 3:16 … we all know by heart.
And about Love. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. Chp. 13 … what it entails. Love w/o free will is a farce. We all know this, our life experience teaches us so. And, what bride was not irresistably drawn to her spouse by his proposal … excepting a few ‘shotgun’ marriages
I’m sorry for being so dense, but I just don’t get what you are saying. Bear with me, brother.
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elvisman
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Like I said - you can object to my admonishments of those who are professing a different Gospel than that of Jesus - as instructed by his Church - but I will not stand by and allow them to confuse their fellow poorly-catechized Christianss who are hungry for the truth with their perversion of that truth.Elvis, I find that I am often harder on my brother Catholics that are harsh and abrasive than I am to Non-Catholics.
But that is because I hold my brother Catholics to a higher standard. Understanding that they have received the Fullness of Truth, I expect more from them.
I gotta disagree with you here. We are SUPPOSED to tolerate dissent?
This is completely wrong.
God does not tolerate dissent. In the OT we are told over and over how God punished the dissent of the Jews. Yes, he forgave them - but he dod not tolerate their dissent.
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elvisman
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This is a Protestant perversion of the truth. the Good Shepherd DOES provide for the security of his flock. What he DOESN’T do is MAKE them stay. You are insinuating that after we are reborn, we LOSE our gift of free will.
**Where do you get this doctrine? Certainly NOT from the CONTEXT of Scripture. You can only arrive at this by taking verses out of context.
**We are taught – but the CONTEXT of the Bible that when we are reborn, God’s grace gives us the MEANS to persevere. Perseverance and enduring faith is not something that is forced upon us nor is our ability to turn away taken away from us. **
Like I said before – we do NOT have a guarantee of salvation but a moral certitude of salvation IF we endure to the end. Not because the Holy Spirit kept us going – even when we wanted out.
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elvisman
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Nowhere** does this say or even imply a guarantee. This is where you – and most Protestants make a grave hermeneutical error.**
You make the age-old Protestant mistake of equating Redemption with Salvation.
Redemption is what Christ did on the Cross – for ALL mankind = h****e PAID the price for our eternal punishment.
Here is the kicker: IF were endure in faith (Rom. 11:22, Heb.s 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 7:21, 1 Cor. 4:4, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 7:19-2, Matt. 10:22, Luke 12:46, John 8:31-32, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:20-22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 1:18-20).
Salvation is what we receive AFTER leaving this world. This is a lifelong process of enduring faith.
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Tomster
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exactly
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Tomster
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There can be no doubt that the Catholic teaching on sanctifying grace does much to encourage within us the spirit of hope. He that is mighty has done great things for us. He has made us his children, he has raised us up toa share in his nature, he has set the Beatific Vision as the end towards which we must aspire, and he has given us most wonderful endowments to enable us to reach that end. Well, then, may we hope! Yet in our hope there ought ever to be an element of salutary fear. Why?
First of all because we cannot indulge in that strange security which the Reformers declared to be the one condition for justification. It was part of their system that in order to be justified we must have the unwavering certainty of faith that we are justified. This was condemned by the Council of Trent, which lays it down that “just as no pious man ought to entertain a doubt about the mercy of God, the merits of Christ and the efficacy of the sacraments; so everyone can have uncertainty and fear concerning the possesion of grace, when he considers himself and his own infirmity and want of good dispositions; since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which admits of no error, that he has obtained the grace of God.”
We cannot, then, have the certainty of faith that we are in grace; but we can have an assurance which is sufficient for all practical purposes. Concerning the precise degree of this assurance there has been considerable discussion among theologians, but at any rate we can say without hesitation that a man can have a degree of certainty which excludes all real and prudent doubt. And indeed we are often expected to have such a certainty, as when we receive Holy Communion; at such times we must be able to tell ourselves that we really and truly are in God’s grace. To open the door to doubt upon our state of grace when our conscience can discover no serious sin would be to enter upon a life of anguish and stress of mind which God most certainly does not intend. If we are faced by the thought of of past sins we must mourn for them and renew our heartfelt sorrow, but we must at the same time put our trust in the goodness of God and in the efficacy of the sacrament of Penance. A condition of morbid fear is altogether foreign to the spirit of Christ.
cont.
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