A question for OSASers

[Tomster]

There is greater ground for fear in regard to the future. I may have reasonable certainty that I am in the grace of God, but do I know that I will die in that grace? I do not. Far from the mind of a Catholic must be the thought of those who look upon themselves as most ceratinly among the number of the elect, for the Church teaches that apart from a special revelation it is impossible to know which souls God has predestined. When we consider the weakness of our nature and the strength of the enemies of our soul we may well fear lest we fall from grace. Hence our Savior teaches us to pray that we be saved from temptation. “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” “Be sober and watch,” says St. Peter, “because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour. Whom resist ye, strong in faith.” Truly it is with fear and trembling that we must work out our salvation, as St. Paul tells us. Nothing which we can do can really merit this “great gift” of final perseverance. We must pray for it, we must hope for it, but we cannot be certain that we shall obtain it.

Yet hope must surely temper the fear which the thought of our uncertainty creates; not the hope of one who is conscious of his own strength, but the hope of one who, knowing his own infirmity, looks up to God in childlike trust. He has been so good to us; he has made such wonderful provision for us; so, while we fear our own weakness we are confident of his strength and his love. It is in this spirit that we listen to the words of St. Paul which the Church puts before us when she celebrates the mystery of Christ’s coming on Christmas night. “The grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men, instructing us, that denying ungodliness and worldly desires, we should live soberly, and justly, and godly in this world, looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works. These things speak and exhort.”

 

[NotWorthy]

Like I said - you can object to my admonishments of those who are professing a different Gospel than that of Jesus - as instructed by his Church - but I will not stand by and allow them to confuse their fellow poorly-catechized Christianss who are hungry for the truth with their perversion of that truth.

Elvis, let me ask you. Have I defended the faith to the good Dokimas? I’m just curious of your thoughts on this.

I gotta disagree with you here. We are SUPPOSED to tolerate dissent?
This is completely wrong.

**God does not **tolerate dissent. In the OT we are told over and over how God punished the dissent of the Jews. Yes, he forgave them - but he dod not tolerate their dissent.

I’m just saying that there are ways to bring dissenting voices into line, and then there are ways. Sometimes downright confrontation is needed, but not always.

I can’t help but think that your bulldog attitude is premature.

Remember, Peter’s words again. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

And don’t forget that last caveat. The anti-catholics will only put themselves to shame.

 

[Dokimas]

elvisman:

Ac 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. The highlighted verb is present passive particle.​

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who **are being saved **it is the power of God. The highlighted verb is present passive particle.​

2Co 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who **are being saved **and among those who are perishing. The highlighted verb is present passive particle.​

1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us–baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Highlighted verb is present active indicative.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis, let me ask you. Have I defended the faith to the good Dokimas? I’m just curious of your thoughts on this.

Actually** – your conversation with him has been less heated because you weren’t responding to the things I was. That goes for some of the other posters on this thread who are “Catholics”, in name only.**

I’m just saying that there are ways to bring dissenting voices into line, and then there are ways. Sometimes downright confrontation is needed, but not always.

I can’t help but think that your bulldog attitude is premature.

Remember, Peter’s words again. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

And don’t forget that last caveat. The anti-catholics will only put themselves to shame.

**Yes - there are ways to bring dissenting voices into line - and not all of them are done as YOU would have them. I don’t tell you how to defend the faith - even though I disagree with some of the things you say.

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**For instance - y****ou speak of St. Jerome as being “crotchety” for who tolerating little or no dissent. ****What would you have him do? What kind of faith tolerates ****tolerates **dissent? The truth is the TRUTH and, if you dissent from the truth, you wallow in the lie. As I’ve said before - the truth is not up for grabs.

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I don’t usually post until I see an uncharitable attack on the Church. I think people who misrepresent the Church SHOULD be corrected. If they misrepresent her out of** ignorance – the admonishment is more of an informative exchange. When their attacks are abrasive and lacking in charity – the admonishment and correction is more severe. I have had many nice debates on this board with a number of non-Catholics seeking to know more about the Church.

---

I have also corrected and admonished** fellow**** Catholics on this board for unfairly attacking non-Catholics.**

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**The Church has *****many *****members - but we are of ***ONE Body. * Your method on this forum is to engage others in conversation, perhaps at random.
Mine is to defend the Church against assaultive comments and lies against the Church. **

 

[NotWorthy]

Actually** – your conversation with him has been less heated because you weren’t **responding to the things I was. That goes for some of the other posters on this thread who are “Catholics”, in name only.

Yes - there are ways to bring dissenting voices into line - and not all of them are done as YOU would have them. I don’t tell you how to defend the faith - even though I *disagree *with some of the things you say.

For instance - y****ou speak of St. Jerome as being “crotchety” for who tolerating little or no dissent. What would you have him do? What kind of faith tolerates **tolerates **dissent? The truth is the TRUTH and, if you dissent from the truth, you wallow in the lie. As I’ve said before - the truth is not up for grabs.

I don’t usually post until I see an uncharitable attack on the Church. I think people who misrepresent the Church SHOULD be corrected. If they misrepresent her out of** ignorance – the admonishment is more of an informative exchange. When their attacks are abrasive and lacking in charity – the admonishment and correction is more severe. I have had many nice debates on this board with a number of non-Catholics seeking to know more about the Church.

I have also corrected and admonished** fellow**** Catholics on this board for unfairly attacking non-Catholics.**

**The Church has *****many *****members - but we are of ***ONE Body. *** Your method on this forum is to engage others in conversation, perhaps at random.
Mine is to defend the Church against assaultive comments and lies against the Church.

Thanks for your assessment. Regarding St. Jerome, 2 points:

1. He dissented on a rather major issue.
2. I only mentioned this because he always seemed more crotchety than others. In his writings against Rufius, for example, he seems to take Rufius’ arguments as an attack against him personally, rather than an attack on the Church. I’m only expressing my opinion on this, however.

Regarding what would I do regarding dissent… What did Pope John Paul II do? Was he always in the attack mode? I think attacks should be a last resort.

 

[brb3]

Security of conscience: does not mean that one is assured they are saved, it means one is secure in what they have done is pleasing to God.

Can one please God fully and not be saved ? The Elect WILL please God … in the final analysis … on their end day. As Paul says … we must finish the race set before us. Paul knew he was pleasing God, and Paul had S.A. Same for John and Peter, etc. But, all three had S.A. because they were committed to perseverance. Those w/o the determination to persevere … will lack S.A. They will always have doubts, in the back of their mind … that they might find the race too tough, and give up on their Lord.

Would any of us want our Pope to lack S.A. ? That is rather obvious answer isn’t it. We know he is protected by Christ from error in faith/morals.

 

[elvisman]

Thanks for your assessment. Regarding St. Jerome, 2 points:

1. He dissented on a rather major issue.
2. I only mentioned this because he always seemed more crotchety than others. In his writings against Rufius, for example, he seems to take Rufius’ arguments as an attack against him personally, rather than an attack on the Church. I’m only expressing my opinion on this, however.

Regarding what would I do regarding dissent… What did Pope John Paul II do? Was he always in the attack mode? I think attacks should be a last resort.

As for being in “attack mode” - I’m not. I’m in "defense mode" when it comes to the truth. Anyway - I do get your point.

**Also - there is such a thing as being hyper-ecumentical at the expense of the truth - and that, I will not tolerate. In my opinion - JPII was one of the greatest Popes in the history of the Church. However - he was not above making a blunder - as in the instance of his kissing the Quran.
But, in the end, I do believe it was only his passion for the unity of all men that he did it.

**"Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions."
- G. K. Chesterton

 

[NotWorthy]

As for being in "attack mode" - I’m not. I’m in "defense mode" when it comes to the truth. Anyway - I do get your point.

Also - there is such a thing as being hyper-ecumentical at the expense of the truth - and that, I will not tolerate. In my opinion - JPII was one of the greatest Popes in the history of the Church. However - he was *not *above making a blunder - as in the instance of his kissing the Quran.
But, in the end, I do believe it was only his passion for the unity of all men that he did it.

***“Tolerance is the virtue of a man without ***convictions.”
- G. K. Chesterton

My brother, all I can ask you, is that if I misrepresent the Catholic Church, you had better let me know. But do it only as forcefully as you feel necessary.

God Bless!

 

[elvisman]

My brother, all I can ask you, is that if I misrepresent the Catholic Church, you had better let me know. But do it only as forcefully as you feel necessary.

God Bless!

 

[Dokimas]

My brother, all I can ask you, is that if I misrepresent the Catholic Church, you had better let me know. But do it only as forcefully as you feel necessary.

God Bless!

dynomite will do

 

[fbl9]

dynomite will do

for notworthy or yourself?

 

[elvisman]

dynomite will do

I see you went for the Jimmy “J.J.” Walker spelling (Dy-No-MITE!!!)

 

[Dokimas]

for notworthy or yourself?

Well, I’ve been fighting a hard head cold for a few days and my sinuses are all blocked so I’d have to say I could use a couple of sticks myself.

 

[Dokimas]

I see you went for the Jimmy “J.J.” Walker spelling (Dy-No-MITE!!!)

Who cares about spelling as long as you knew what I meant.?!

 

[Nicea325]

**

Look - I appreciate your charity - I really

do. I think you are not very familiar with John MacArthur, at least in the way he views the Catholic Church. Maybe it’s because you are too nice or maybe it’s because you admired him for so long before your conversion.

Have you heard John MacArthur speak about the Catholic Church? I have and he is one of the most virulent anti-Catholics out there. He spews lie after lie about what we supposedly believe in and teaches.

For example, on a tape I have, he actually said that nuns were recruited in the confessional by priests, who are psychologically trained to break down despondent and desperate women.

He also claims on this tape that the Vatican has the largest collection of pornography - films, magazines and books - in the entire world.

**A man who lies as much as MacArthur is *not ***to be believed about anything.
Doesn’t Jesus warn us in Matt. 7:15-20 that we will know false teachers by their fruits? If his fruits are born of lies - outright lies - then they should be easy for any Christian to see.

I pray for John MacArthur and every other anti-Catholic out there who chooses the lie instead of the truth.**

John MacArthur is the biggest waste of time. He claims the Vatican has the largest collection of pornography? :hypno:Key word: His CLAIM,not a fact.

 

[elvisman]

Who cares about spelling as long as you knew what I meant.?!

Just trying to bring some humor to your ridiculous comment . . .

 

[Dokimas]

Just trying to bring some humor to your ridiculous comment . . .

And I’m to care what you think why?

 

[NotWorthy]

My brothers, let’s BE brothers!

BTW, today the Church celebrated the Incarnation of Jesus! This is the greatest moment in human history, when God became Man!!! It’s a good time to remember that we should celebrate the things we hold in common.

Emmanuel - God is With Us!

 

[brb3]

And I’m to care what you think why?

Because you are a brother’s keeper, and he yours. Christ expects you both to care about each other. We can engage in lively debate on theology w/o getting angry. Argue the facts, not the personalities. :hug3:

 

[Dokimas]

My brothers, let’s BE brothers!

BTW, today the Church celebrated the Incarnation of Jesus! This is the greatest moment in human history, when God became Man!!! It’s a good time to remember that we should celebrate the things we hold in common.

Emmanuel - God is With Us!

I prefer that myself.​

What do you mean that today the church celebrates the Incarnation of Jesus???