A question for our LDS friends

[iepuras]

Aren’t non-Catholic Christians prohibited from partaking of the Eucharist?

Wasn’t there a time long ago when unbaptized persons were dismissed from the latter portion of Catholic Mass?

In addition to what RebeccaJ said, I will also add that no one is denied being in the presence of God in the Blessed Sacrament. Anyone can go to an Adoration Chapel to be in the presence of God.

In my parish, catechumens are dismissed after the Liturgy of the Word to discuss the scripture readings at only one of the Sunday Masses. The priest does not dismiss catechumens at any other Mass. It is not like the priest checks a recommend at the door prior to Mass to make sure only Catholics are there for the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Anyone can attend the entire Mass. Nothing is hidden or secret.

Converting to Catholicism is a long process. I’ve been officially doing it since February and I won’t be baptized until Easter Vigil which is in mid-April next year. It will be a 14 month journey when all is said and done.

 

[kimg901]

Aren’t non-Catholic Christians prohibited from partaking of the Eucharist?

Wasn’t there a time long ago when unbaptized persons were dismissed from the latter portion of Catholic Mass?

You still didn’t answer my question(s). As for your first question, yes. As for your second question, yes. But Rebecca already answered it. So please answer mine. Why cant the parents and family of someone getting married in the temple enter it if they are not mormon? Why would Christ deny something so wonderful?

 

[taylorf]

I’ve been officially doing it since February and I won’t be baptized until Easter Vigil which is in mid-April next year. It will be a 14 month journey when all is said and done.

You rock! I’ve been in RCIA since October and I just talked to the priest after the last class to see if I could speed this up. I’m ready to go now, so I can’t imagine the level of excitement you must have.

 

[iepuras]

You rock! I’ve been in RCIA since October and I just talked to the priest after the last class to see if I could speed this up. I’m ready to go now, so I can’t imagine the level of excitement you must have.

I am so ready. I have been wanting the Eucharist since August, which is when I “got it”. We are working on our convalidation, hoping to get that done in January. We still have 3 more counseling sessions to go (the last one is where we plan the ceremony). My husband is Eastern Catholic so our priest has to get permission from the eparch (bishop) for his church on the other side of the country to witness our convalidation. We have no idea if he will be quick or slow with the paperwork. I want to get it done now and get my husband to Reconciliation!

When I feel impatient, I remember that Easter Vigil is one of the best Masses of the year. What better way to enter the Church than at Easter Vigil! I still wish Easter wasn’t so late next year. And you know what’s really cool? There will be 2 ex Mormons getting baptized in my parish at Easter.

Oh, it is really, really cool that your entire family got out of the LDS church and are getting baptized into the Catholic Church together. That doesn’t happen very often.

 

[gazelam]

You still didn’t answer my question(s). As for your first question, yes. As for your second question, yes. But Rebecca already answered it. So please answer mine. Why cant the parents and family of someone getting married in the temple enter it if they are not mormon? Why would Christ deny something so wonderful?

Anciently only those who were worthy were allowed in the temple.

Ezekeil 44:9 (KJV) Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

The same pattern is followed in modern times.

 

[Miriam1947]

Aren’t non-Catholic Christians prohibited from partaking of the Eucharist?

Wasn’t there a time long ago when unbaptized persons were dismissed from the latter portion of Catholic Mass?

Communion in the Catholic Church has no relation to the temple for LDS. In the CC communion is for those who are in communion with the church. There is no charge to receive as in the LDS temple where you must have paid full tithing before you can get a temple recommend. Kinda like pay to pray.

Unbaptized persons were dismissed from the Eucharistic part of the mass especially in the early days because of the accusation of cannibalism and the risk of being persecuted as a Christian. In the church today those that dismiss early do so in order for the catechumen to attend an RCIA class at that time. (This is what occurs at one of the parishes in my area)

At other parishes (mine for example) the catechumen leaves on their own before communion. When I was in RCIA I elected to stay for the entire Mass. I did not receive communion until I became fully Catholic.

 

[iepuras]

Anciently only those who were worthy were allowed in the temple.

Ezekeil 44:9 (KJV) Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

The same pattern is followed in modern times.

Then why was the veil of the temple torn at the death of Christ if not to show that the old covenant was fulfilled and that all are now able to come to Christ?

 

[Porknpie]

Temples are a place set apart from the world. There is good reason for Temples. However, even if this were not the case the burden would be on you to show why they are not now required. **I see no scripture quoted on this thread that says temples are done away. **Please reference and explain where there is such a scripture. Because Christ is the mediator temples are not obsolete. He was the mediator before the atonement he is the mediator after it.

Jesus Christ foretold of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. No where in the bible does Christ nor any other writer say that it should have been rebuilt. Nor has it ever been the belief of Christianity that it should be rebuilt. The burden is not on the Catholic Church, the burden is on LDS to show why a temple should be continued. Christ fulfilled the OT. The temple was a place for sacrifice, done so by Priests. This prefigures the NT sacrifice of the Mass, where we receive the body and blood of our resurrected Lord. The OT is fulfilled in the NT, the NT hidden in the OT.

The Catholic Mass, the NT sacrifice was foretold in Malachi 1. A pure offering, offered around the world 24 hours a day. Only the Catholic Mass completes this prophecy.

11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.

There is no incense in the LDS temple, no pure offering. The LDS Church can not be the fulfillment of this prophesy.

PnP

 

[kimg901]

Then why was the veil of the temple torn at the death of Christ if not to show that the old covenant was fulfilled and that all are now able to come to Christ?

Good answer, thanks!

 

[jadamo]

Anciently only those who were worthy were allowed in the temple.

Ezekeil 44:9 (KJV) Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

The same pattern is followed in modern times.

Anciently, that’s the key word here. Anciently, as in before Christ came to fulfill the law. Everything that was done in the OT was a prefigurement of Christ, it was set down by God in anticipation of Him, the Israelites were a people set apart in order to prepare the coming of the Messiah. And to even be a priest in the Temple, one had to be from the tribe of Levite, there were indeed laws and rules enforced for worthiness b/c Christ had *not come yet *to take away our sins, no matter how many offerings were made, they didn’t atone for all our sins for forever, the Israelites were not made permanently clean in their sacrifices which is why they had to make them all the time.

The very Ark of the Covenant was a prefigurement of Christ b/c it contained, the manna which pointed towards Christ as the Bread come down from Heaven. Second, it contained the priestly rod of Aaron which pointed to Christ as our eternal High Priest and thirdly, the Ark contained the Ten Commandments which pointed to Christ as the Word of God, come to us in flesh, not written in stone.

When Christ died, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, which symbolized that humanity was no longer exiled from Gods presence, b/c the veil itself symbolized our exile (as Adam and Even were exiled from the Garden b/c of sin). Only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies, and at that, just once a year. And then Jesus came, the very Word of God came to us and died for us, that we might be *set free *from sin and come to God. Christ atoned for our sins so that we may *no longer be separated *from God. We do not need this same pattern of “worthiness” anymore, Christ has made us worthy already, but it’s up to us now to accept his grace and mercy. The OT laws and rituals are obsolete, no longer necessary, Christ has perfected them.

Unfortunately, many people receive communion when they shouldn’t b/c they don’t understand the importance of what they’re receiving. Paul gave us a warning about this, but no one checks to see the state of our souls when we receive. Practicing Catholics, and those who understand the importance, know when they can accept and when we should refrain, but many don’t understand and take communion for granted.

The Sacraments are ways in which we can receive special graces from God. All seven of them were taught by the Apostles and by Christ, they were not invented by humans and they are not all considered necessary for our salvation (not every male becomes a priest, not every lay person marries etc.). Christ is our salvation, He is the way, the truth and the life. When we love Him, we participate in Him, with Him and through Him, through the sacraments of the Church.

 

[gazelam]

Anciently, that’s the key word here. Anciently, as in before Christ came to fulfill the law. Everything that was done in the OT was a prefigurement of Christ, it was set down by God in anticipation of Him, the Israelites were a people set apart in order to prepare the coming of the Messiah. And to even be a priest in the Temple, one had to be from the tribe of Levite, there were indeed laws and rules enforced for worthiness b/c Christ had *not come yet *to take away our sins, no matter how many offerings were made, they didn’t atone for all our sins for forever, the Israelites were not made permanently clean in their sacrifices which is why they had to make them all the time.

The very Ark of the Covenant was a prefigurement of Christ b/c it contained, the manna which pointed towards Christ as the Bread come down from Heaven. Second, it contained the priestly rod of Aaron which pointed to Christ as our eternal High Priest and thirdly, the Ark contained the Ten Commandments which pointed to Christ as the Word of God, come to us in flesh, not written in stone.

When Christ died, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, which symbolized that humanity was no longer exiled from Gods presence, b/c the veil itself symbolized our exile (as Adam and Even were exiled from the Garden b/c of sin). Only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies, and at that, just once a year. And then Jesus came, the very Word of God came to us and died for us, that we might be *set free *from sin and come to God. Christ atoned for our sins so that we may *no longer be separated *from God. We do not need this same pattern of “worthiness” anymore, Christ has made us worthy already, but it’s up to us now to accept his grace and mercy. The OT laws and rituals are obsolete, no longer necessary, Christ has perfected them.

Unfortunately, many people receive communion when they shouldn’t b/c they don’t understand the importance of what they’re receiving. Paul gave us a warning about this, but no one checks to see the state of our souls when we receive. Practicing Catholics, and those who understand the importance, know when they can accept and when we should refrain, but many don’t understand and take communion for granted.

The Sacraments are ways in which we can receive special graces from God. All seven of them were taught by the Apostles and by Christ, they were not invented by humans and they are not all considered necessary for our salvation (not every male becomes a priest, not every lay person marries etc.). Christ is our salvation, He is the way, the truth and the life. When we love Him, we participate in Him, with Him and through Him, through the sacraments of the Church.

I disagree with your assertion that before Christ’s atonement nobody could be in the presence of God and would be surprised if that is official Catholic teaching. There are several examples of this occurring in the OT.

Genesis 5:24 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Exodus 6:3 (KJV) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Leviticus 9:5 (KJV) And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.

 

[jadamo]

I disagree with your assertion that before Christ’s atonement nobody could be in the presence of God and would be surprised if that is official Catholic teaching. There are several examples of this occurring in the OT.

Genesis 5:24 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Exodus 6:3 (KJV) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Leviticus 9:5 (KJV) And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.

I didn’t say nobody could ever be in the presence of God in the OT, I said there were laws and rules to follow to be a priest at the Temple and that the High Priest only went in to the inner room where the Holy of Holies was once a year, which was the Day of Atonement. The point of my statement was that God was preparing the people, His chosen people, through strict commands and laws, for the coming of the Messiah, his Son, who would be the true Temple and the fulfillment of the law. God is perfect, all-knowing and all-loving, His presence is truly everywhere, but the Temple itself, the Ark of the Covenant was Holy and a type of Christ. Your temples are a far cry from the Temple in the OT and are no longer necessary since Christ has come and established His new and everlasting covenant. I understand your temples are a sacred space for you, but inside you have secret rituals, which you consider too sacred to reveal, and I don’t believe Christ would come to set us free, only to then set up new ordinances 1800 years later that would be so sacred, they were secret & only those worthy enough could come in and practice these sacred rituals.
As far as the verses you provided, your first two verses are before Moses and the law. Your last verse, Lev 9:5, is right when Moses was teaching the Israelites the laws set forth by God, and the sacrifices that were to be offered for the various sins. Read a little farther, to chapter 10. Aarons sons, Hadab and Abihu, died b/c they did not follow the law. Then read Leviticus chapter 16, which goes over the Day of Atonement and how, exactly, it was to be done. To not do it exactly as it was set forth by God, would mean death.

 

[Miriam1947]

I didn’t say nobody could ever be in the presence of God in the OT, I said there were laws and rules to follow to be a priest at the Temple and that the High Priest only went in to the inner room where the Holy of Holies was once a year, which was the Day of Atonement. The point of my statement was that God was preparing the people, His chosen people, through strict commands and laws, for the coming of the Messiah, his Son, who would be the true Temple and the fulfillment of the law. God is perfect, all-knowing and all-loving, His presence is truly everywhere, but the Temple itself, the Ark of the Covenant was Holy and a type of Christ. **Your temples are a far cry from the Temple in the OT and are no longer necessary since Christ has come and established His new and everlasting covenant. I understand your temples are a sacred space for you, but inside you have secret rituals, which you consider too sacred to reveal, and I don’t believe Christ would come to set us free, only to then set up new ordinances 1800 years later that would be so sacred, they were secret & only those worthy enough could come in and practice these sacred rituals. **
As far as the verses you provided, your first two verses are before Moses and the law. Your last verse, Lev 9:5, is right when Moses was teaching the Israelites the laws set forth by God, and the sacrifices that were to be offered for the various sins. Read a little farther, to chapter 10. Aarons sons, Hadab and Abihu, died b/c they did not follow the law. Then read Leviticus chapter 16, which goes over the Day of Atonement and how, exactly, it was to be done. To not do it exactly as it was set forth by God, would mean death.

And the only ones worthy enough are those who pay tithing. And tithing is to be paid before rent, food, bills, doctors, children’s needs, etc. It is after all a corporation and it seems that the almighty dollar is the most important thing.

 

[AlexPetrosPio]

This may be playing into a game of semantics, but I am sure that this is still a useful thing to have been said:

All church buildings (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) are temples in their own right. It is where the offerings of bread and wine are brought to God (so that they may be changed into His precious Body and Blood). This act of offering to the Divine in a space designed for that purpose is what makes a building a temple.

I do understand that in Catholic terminology, the word “temple” is rarely used, but that word is used quite frequently in at least my experience in the Eastern Orthodox communion.

The Jewish temple has been destroyed, but the Christians in its place built temples of their own. However, the rites in the Jewish temple were public, and the rites of the apostolic Christians are public, yet the same cannot be said the rites in the LDS temples. What we know is rumors and hear-say at the best, or disgruntled ex-LDS who are slamming the LDS communities at the worst.

The religion of the Hebrews was not open to the Gentiles, so when St Paul began converting the Gentiles to Christ, the Church realized that it should be open to all, Gentile or Jew. I know an LDS will agree with this point. The issue is that the LDS temples are not open to all LDS members in good standing. I have plenty of LDS friends, plus friends of my mom and sisters when they moved to Utah, who are faithful, yet still cannot enter their local temple. You will not see that in Christianity. Members of good standing can and will always be welcome in their local churches, and if one is not in good standing, it is relatively easy (in more modern times) to get in good standing. This is not the case in the LDS.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Thanks for this post, I completely agree with you (I essentially said the same thing earlier ). Sometimes, when attempting to critique the LDS temple, Catholics use more Protestant arguments that don’t recognize how Catholicism (and of course Orthodoxy and other apostolic churches) is in continuity with the OT temple/tabernacle, if not moreso than LDS temples, where there are no sacrificial offerings (especially when we realize the importance of bread and wine in the OT temple).

It is clear to me that the temple did not have to be “restored” by Joseph Smith, since it has always been here. And further, it would be up to the LDS to show that what goes on in the LDS temples is a restoration of ancient temple practices.

 

[TexanKnight]

I disagree with your assertion that before Christ’s atonement nobody could be in the presence of God and would be surprised if that is official Catholic teaching. There are several examples of this occurring in the OT.

Genesis 5:24 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Exodus 6:3 (KJV) And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Leviticus 9:5 (KJV) And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.

Were you aware that there is also a New Testament?

 

[Porknpie]

Were you aware that there is also a New Testament?

Do I understand that LDS does not consider the NT to be inspired and infallible? Is that also true with the OT?

If so, how does one then know what is and is not inspired & infallible?

PnP

 

[iepuras]

Do I understand that LDS does not consider the NT to be inspired and infallible? Is that also true with the OT?

If so, how does one then know what is and is not inspired & infallible?

PnP

No, they do not. Same for the OT.

The 8th Article of Faith: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” [emphasis mine]

In 1 Nephi 13:21-29, Nephi has a vision where he sees that “many of the plain and precious truths” of the Bible were removed. The “plain and precious truths” were removed by the “great and abominable church of the devil”. Some Mormons interpret this to mean the Catholic Church, although that belief is falling out of favor these days. When I was LDS I believed that the “great and abominable church of the devil” was not a visible church, but rather invisible and members of the “church of the devil” could be anywhere.

So, according to the BOM and Joseph Smith, the Bible is not correct as it is missing many truths. Basically the idea is that if an LDS teaching is not in the Bible, it is because it was removed by evil men who are part of the “great and abominable church of the devil”. The BOM is also considered to be “the most correct book” of any on this earth.

Mormons will go back to Moroni’s promise in the last chapter of the BOM as the way to determine truth. Ask God with a sincere heart and the Holy Ghost will testify to truth. If you have the “burning in your bosom”, it is true.

When it comes to scripture, the BOM, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price trump the Bible. With regards to prophets, living prophets trump dead ones. In fact many dead prophets, including Brigham Young, are thrown under the bus.

 

[SteveVH]

In all fairness, our Church is a temple, as LivingWaters has already pointed out. It is a temple because Christ is the Temple. What matters is what is occurring in the temple, which was primarily a place of sacrifice. In our Temple, the perfect sacrifice is made to God from the setting of the sun to its rising. No sacrifice at all is made in a Mormon temple, so if they are claiming to follow the Jewish model, they fail completely.

 

[jadamo]

This may be playing into a game of semantics, but I am sure that this is still a useful thing to have been said:

All church buildings (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) are temples in their own right. It is where the offerings of bread and wine are brought to God (so that they may be changed into His precious Body and Blood). This act of offering to the Divine in a space designed for that purpose is what makes a building a temple.

I do understand that in Catholic terminology, the word “temple” is rarely used, but that word is used quite frequently in at least my experience in the Eastern Orthodox communion.

The Jewish temple has been destroyed, but the Christians in its place built temples of their own. However, the rites in the Jewish temple were public, and the rites of the apostolic Christians are public, yet the same cannot be said the rites in the LDS temples. What we know is rumors and hear-say at the best, or disgruntled ex-LDS who are slamming the LDS communities at the worst.

The religion of the Hebrews was not open to the Gentiles, so when St Paul began converting the Gentiles to Christ, the Church realized that it should be open to all, Gentile or Jew. I know an LDS will agree with this point. The issue is that the LDS temples are not open to all LDS members in good standing. I have plenty of LDS friends, plus friends of my mom and sisters when they moved to Utah, who are faithful, yet still cannot enter their local temple. You will not see that in Christianity. Members of good standing can and will always be welcome in their local churches, and if one is not in good standing, it is relatively easy (in more modern times) to get in good standing. This is not the case in the LDS.

I agree with you completely (and you too LivingWaters7 and SteveVH). It’s really beautiful to me how Jesus made “all things new”. The beginning of Christianity was a bit rocky, but with the Holy Spirit guiding the new Church, the transition was made and I love how the roots of the Catholic faith can be found in the Jewish faith. Our faith was made complete My question mostly focused on how LDS temples today are supposed to be similar to the OT Temple in Jerusalem since they claim their faith harkens back to ancient times. I didn’t want to get too much into why Catholic Churches (including Orthodox) and Cathedrals are considered temples b/c of the Eucharist. That might be too much for LDS responders to handle