A Question For Protestants regarding the Catholic Church...

[ahollars]

… I am not so arrogant to think I get it right all the time, but with the help of the Holy Spirit, sometimes I am given wisdom and understanding…

…Protestants trust that with the Holy Spirit, interpretation of scriptures can be done by the average lay person…

This is the problem with your position. The average layperson has no business interpreting Scripture, because it is not open for interpretation. The Church is there specifically to be the standard-bearer. You said you were grateful for the Church preserving its history. What we have is not just the written documents, but the meanings, and the teachings that made these writings necessary in the first place. Tradition came first. Scripture exists to support Tradition, not the other way around.

This is why the church has a hierarchy. There is no dispute on who is the final authority, unless you dispute the authority’s existence itself, hence, Protestantism. This final authority has allowed Catholics with questions or disputes to know with absolute certain what Jesus teaching says about our lives today. All from men who have spent their entire lives studying they fathers before them. This is also why the laying on of hands is so vital to authority. Our bishops can trace their succession back to the Apostles. Ever since St. Pope Linus, the first successor of St. Peter, it has been understood and defended that the shepherd in Rome had the “Keys to the Kingdom.”

If you are truly confident that you have sufficient Gifts of the Holy Spirit, then pick up a copy of the Writings of the Early Church Fathers. These are the men who were taught by the Apostles themselves. What they have to say about the Church sure sounds like today’s Catholic Church.

Happy hunting (or is that fishing?)

 

[O.S.Luke]

If you are truly confident that you have sufficient Gifts of the Holy Spirit, then pick up a copy of the Writings of the Early Church Fathers. These are the men who were taught by the Apostles themselves. What they have to say about the Church sure sounds like today’s Catholic Church.

Standard reading in seminary. Even a Protestant one.

Happy hunting (or is that fishing?)

Neither. Faithful reading and discernment - and a reminder how easily man can corrupt the Church that Christ built and founded.

 

[JonNC]

I will add another question:
“Why do Protestants trust the Catholic Church with the definition of scripture, but not the interpretation?”
After all, we are the ones who compiled scripture in the first place.

Speaking only as a Lutheran, we trace our history, with the rest of the united church before the schism, to the time of the Apostles. That the Catholic Church inthe west, and the Orthodox in the East are to be credited for maintaining the scripture through history is not to be denied.

Originally Posted by phummel
…Protestants trust that with the Holy Spirit, interpretation of scriptures can be done by the average lay person…

Well, not Lutherans, at least.
Martin Chemnitz:

This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.

Jon

 

[ahollars]

Neither. Faithful reading and discernment - and a reminder how easily man can corrupt the Church that Christ built and founded.

Fishers of men…

Aw, forget it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello Grabriel of 12,
Just butting in…

I rather like Ephesians 4:11-16.
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God

I think Jesus bestowed a special blessing upon Peter in Matthew 16:18. However, I don’t believe the intent was to establish a power hierarchy and theocracy. So I take a broad view of what a church is. It’s us Christians unified in the knowledge of Jesus. It knows no denominational boundaries.

Gabriel of 12;
Jesus came to establish God’s kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. The Catholic Church has a Lord King Savior in Jesus Christ our hierarchy from eternity. Peter is the Vicar or Jesus Christ who was given the Keys to the Kingdom of God if you finish reading Matthew 16:16-19. Jesus hiearchy is seen for 2000 years now from Peter and his successors in the Popes, or his primeminister, also his servants who serve God’s Kingdom on earth, from the apostles and their successors in the Catholic Bishops. This is all biblical teachings why would one refuse the King and his Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven?

The Catholic Church knows no boundaries for she exist both on earth and in heaven in the Communion of Saints. Besides the Catholic Church is the body of Jesus Christ on earth, she has never been and will never be a denomination.

Phummel’
I over simplify by using WWJD. Would Jesus approve of how we worship and praise Him? Are we at risk of becoming too entrenched in doctrine such that we become Pharisees?

Gabriel of 12;
Yes, Jesus would not approve of any worship, if not done as he commanded here are his commandments given to his apostlels handed down by Apostolic Traditioin to his Catholic Church. Matthew 26:26-30 Where Jesus commands “All” vs.27 of us to eat his body, drink his blood, and then commands from all the other Gospels and Corinthians 11:20-27 “Do this in memory of me”. The Catholic Church has only one mediator, one advocate (lawyer) before God in Jesus Christ, the Catholic church only obeys her husband. She cannot add or subtract from what her King has revealed to her in the Catholic Church.

Pummel;
Share the blessings of your church and show people the wisdom and love. However, I would be careful in trying to squelch heresies by force. Remain meek and humble and allow Christ to reflect His truths through you.

Praise the RC church for its many wonderful ministries and scholarship! Thank you for this wonderful forum too. Amen.

-paul

Gabriel of 12;
Your very welcome; “heresies by force”? The Apostles followed by their disciples in the Catholic Saints and Martyrs give witness with how to defeat heresies, not with force but by giving testimony of Jesus with their lives unto death, leaving us the example to follow Jesus Christ by picking up our cross. The works you mention meekness, humility among many is what Catholics are doing in “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” as Paul taught the Body of Jesus Christ in his time, so Catholics continue in that Apostolic Tradition. If any of these I fail at, my Love will never fail, for God is Love.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Your response very blatantly tells me that you are in fact “high-headed”. Have a nice day.

Gabriel of 12;

Thank you Thorwald for that blessing I get a sense of how Jesus and his apostles felt when ridiculed for speaking the “Truth”.

May God richly bless you, and may the peace, Love and joy of our Lord Jesus be with you.

 

[Dokimas]

So here’s the real question. If (for the sake of the argument) the Catholic Church is NOT the True Church:

1. Which Protestant denomination is the True Church? Remember, the True Church is a physical church, not a spiritual fellowship of believers. James 5:14 pretty much says that the True Church is a real, physical church.
2. Why would God allow the Catholic Church to be in error for 1500 years before correcting it? In the OT, God only allowed the Jews to be in error for a hundred years or so before sending Babylon/Assyria/Persia/etc… to ruin them and show them the Truth of God. Why would God allow the Catholic Church to be in error for 10x that amount of time?

1. None – Seems the teaching of Jesus and the writers of the NT that God doesn’t see His church the way you seem to see it. All those who have allowed themselves to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus is part of the church of Jesus Christ.

1. No offense, but the history of the Catholic Church has many troublesome parts. The Jews have been wrong for much more than 1500 yrs. As a group they still reject Jesus as Messiah.

 

[phummel]

Well, not Lutherans, at least.

I’m sorry I misrepresented your church. I suppose other Protestants churches of the Anglican flavor maybe similar.

This is the problem with your position. The average layperson has no business interpreting Scripture, because it is not open for interpretation. The Church is there specifically to be the standard-bearer. You said you were grateful for the Church preserving its history. What we have is not just the written documents, but the meanings, and the teachings that made these writings necessary in the first place. Tradition came first. Scripture exists to support Tradition, not the other way around.

This is why the church has a hierarchy. There is no dispute on who is the final authority, unless you dispute the authority’s existence itself, hence, Protestantism. This final authority has allowed Catholics with questions or disputes to know with absolute certain what Jesus teaching says about our lives today. All from men who have spent their entire lives studying they fathers before them. This is also why the laying on of hands is so vital to authority. Our bishops can trace their succession back to the Apostles. Ever since St. Pope Linus, the first successor of St. Peter, it has been understood and defended that the shepherd in Rome had the “Keys to the Kingdom.”

If you are truly confident that you have sufficient Gifts of the Holy Spirit, then pick up a copy of the Writings of the Early Church Fathers. These are the men who were taught by the Apostles themselves. What they have to say about the Church sure sounds like today’s Catholic Church.

Happy hunting (or is that fishing?)

I rather like Wesley’s approach - Scripture, Tradition, Reason, Experience.
Again, we disagree and I fear my comments will not add value and may only antagonize.

I think many Protestants believe in a God that runs His universe by giving us free will.
Free will to sin and make mistakes.

I also see the Great Commission given to the disciples by Jesus as a mission for modern day Christians too.
By the power of the Holy Spirit, I believe we (lay people) are empowered to spread the Good News.

As a citizen of the US, this is quite harmonious with many of its founding principles.
I realize the US is not the center of the world, and I don’t want this to degrade in a discussion of the flaws of America.
Gabriel of 12;:

… The Catholic Church has only one mediator, one advocate (lawyer) before God in Jesus Christ, the Catholic church only obeys her husband. She cannot add or subtract from what her King has revealed to her in the Catholic Church.

Christians (yes, this includes Catholics) only have one mediator and advocate in Jesus Christ. We have a personal relationship with God.
We do not need the Roman Catholic Church to mediate on our behalf.

I think it’s dangerous when men claim to be an institutionalized representative of God.
When the hearts of these men fail, it misrepresents God and doesn’t properly glorify His character.

Fishers of men…
Aw, forget it.

Mark 1:17
You are wise - I probably should stop and agree to disagree too.

 

[DLClark]

So here’s the real question. If (for the sake of the argument) the Catholic Church is NOT the True Church:

1. Which Protestant denomination is the True Church? Remember, the True Church is a physical church, not a spiritual fellowship of believers. James 5:14 pretty much says that the True Church is a real, physical church.
2. Why would God allow the Catholic Church to be in error for 1500 years before correcting it? In the OT, God only allowed the Jews to be in error for a hundred years or so before sending Babylon/Assyria/Persia/etc… to ruin them and show them the Truth of God. Why would God allow the Catholic Church to be in error for 10x that amount of time?

The true church can be found in many, many places. It is not found though in any church but in all those who are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, Eph 2:8-9.

He allows to have a free choice and to follow error out of being decieved by Satan, 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
NASU

I hope this answers your two questions. Now I have one for you.
Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that if you were to die today that you will be in heaven with God?

 

[laurenharper]

I stumbled across this post in another thread. It made me sad to think that the divide between Christians was deeper than I thought. I will pray.

-paul

Yes, BUT, since Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Catechism now reads that Protestants who have grown up faithfully following Christ to the best of their ability should be respected as fellow Christians. The quotes that you posted from the early church fathers were written WAY before the Reformation. At that time, the RC Church WAS the only Christian Church, so it was fair to say that you had to be a part of it to be saved. If you ask me, the Church was just a little late in responding to the changes that the Reformation brought about, but better late than never!

 

[laurenharper]

The hard part is in convincing Protestants that the Church is physical. And you can’t create an argument based on Tradition/Church authority, since they reject that anyway.

The answer to the second question may be this: Protestants only believe that God will keep his INVISIBLE church from major errors, not necessarily the physical. Some Protestants would say that the Catholic Church isn’t even Christian, so this question is senseless.

I am a Protestant that wants to convert to Catholicism, but still knows the popular Protestant retorts quite well. =)

 

[phummel]

Yes, BUT, since Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Catechism now reads that Protestants who have grown up faithfully following Christ to the best of their ability should be respected as fellow Christians. The quotes that you posted from the early church fathers were written WAY before the Reformation. At that time, the RC Church WAS the only Christian Church, so it was fair to say that you had to be a part of it to be saved. If you ask me, the Church was just a little late in responding to the changes that the Reformation brought about, but better late than never!

Thank you laurenharper.

The hard part is in convincing Protestants that the Church is physical. And you can’t create an argument based on Tradition/Church authority, since they reject that anyway.

The answer to the second question may be this: Protestants only believe that God will keep his INVISIBLE church from major errors, not necessarily the physical. Some Protestants would say that the Catholic Church isn’t even Christian, so this question is senseless.

I am a Protestant that wants to convert to Catholicism, but still knows the popular Protestant retorts quite well. =)

“this question is senseless” - probably true, you can’t argue with stiff-necked people and heretics like me

May your conversion bring you many blessings.

 

[SonofMonica]

The hard part is in convincing Protestants that the Church is physical. And you can’t create an argument based on Tradition/Church authority, since they reject that anyway.

What’s funny about this statement is, in my experience, protestants will point to the things that the Catholic Church has done or said or taught, outside the Bible, and use it to say that the Catholic Church is wrong. But they will not look to the things that the Catholic Church has done or said or taught, outside the Bible, to even consider for a moment that the Catholic Church is right. All of a sudden, all that talk becomes “mere Tradition.” :ehh:

The answer to the second question may be this: Protestants only believe that God will keep his INVISIBLE church from major errors, not necessarily the physical. Some Protestants would say that the Catholic Church isn’t even Christian, so this question is senseless.

How does this play out practically? I mean, God is going to allow potentially each and every individual Church to err, yet, somehow all of them taken together will not err? I suspect in practice, this really amounts to "We’re (e.g.) baptist, and all those who think like us (the invisible Church) will not err, but all these hierarchical Catholics and Anglicans and Protestants with their physical church structures (which we pretend we don’t have) will. Just a nagging suspicion I have based upon experience… Maybe you have a different idea of how that concept plays out.

I am a Protestant that wants to convert to Catholicism, but still knows the popular Protestant retorts quite well. =)

Well, welcome and glad you’re here! Whether you reconcile with the Catholic Church or not, I’m glad you’re here and contributing to the conversation. I will say a prayer for you at Mass today. Speaking of, better go get in the shower and wake up my wife… God bless!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Christians (yes, this includes Catholics) only have one mediator and advocate in Jesus Christ. We have a personal relationship with God.
We do not need the Roman Catholic Church to mediate on our behalf.

I think it’s dangerous when men claim to be an institutionalized representative of God.
When the hearts of these men fail, it misrepresents God and doesn’t properly glorify His character.

Gabriel of 12;
Can you describe your personal relationship with God?

Can it get anymore personal than to recieve his body, blood, soul and divinity in the believers own body and soul as “All” Catholics do when we recieve him in his Word, by hearing, In his Love sacrifice by his Eucharist as we are partakers of his divinity from Jesus Sacraments?

How personal is your relationship with God? Is your relationship with God symbolic? Catholics dont believe in a symbolic god; We believe in a true eternal living present God through Jesus Christ our advocate who reveals the Father to us, because he is from the Father.

The Roman Catholic Church does not mediate for anyone in the way you misunderstand her commission from God. She is called by Jesus himself and commissioned to go out into all the world make disciples, baptise and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ teach them to OBSERVE ALL that Jesus has commanded his Catholic Church to do (see Matthew 28:18-20).

Jesus personally commissioned our first pope Peter " PERSONALLY" from John 21:15-19 to “TEND” his flock, by “Feed my lambs”, “Tend my sheep”, “Feed my sheep”.

The Roman Catholic Church is fully human subject to “concupiscence” where she will “never” fail is from her living divinity as the body of Jesus Christ, because Jesus promised to remain with her “always” never to leave her orphaned.

The “Fall” of man depends on the contradiction of “wills”, when the human will is opposed to the divine will, which the father of lies the tempter leads man to think is a condition of “FREEDOM”.

The Catholic Church prays and intercedes from the example of Jesus, “Not my will, but your will be done”.

 

[Christalone]

The TRUE church is where two or more are gathered together to study and fellowship in God’s Word.

Could even be two from different faiths. It doesn’t matter. The true church is not a particular place. The true church is totally mobile.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

The TRUE church is where two or more are gathered together to study and fellowship in God’s Word.

Could even be two from different faiths. It doesn’t matter. The true church is not a particular place. The true church is totally mobile.

Surely you jest…

Christalone, I think you misunderstood me. I am talking about the Church that Jesus set up on Earth, to continue to teach the Christian community in His absence, so that people would have a visible place to experience God’s power.

The True Church kinda has to be a church, not 2 or more people gathered together. You say that the True Church could even be people of 2 different faiths. Tell me, if a Jehovah’s Witness and a Southern Baptist get together and study the Bible, that’s the True Church!?!?! Well, it is if we take your statement at face value.

For what reason do you say that a church is 2 or more people gathered in fellowship to study God’s Word? That’s not a church. A church is where worship of God and prayer are the main focus, and the God, not His Word, is the centerpiece.

And another thing. If the True Church is 2 or more people having what sounds like a Bible Study, how is this a church at all?

I don’t mean to offend you Christalone, but are you what I call a “just-me-and-Jesus” Christian? That means you don’t go to church unless you want to, or think that you don’t need a church to worship God correctly. Your definition of a church is way off-base, I would correct you with Scripture but I can’t remember the Hebrews verse that supports me. Oh well.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

The true church can be found in many, many places. It is not found though in any church but in all those who are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, Eph 2:8-9.

Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that if you were to die today that you will be in heaven with God?

I beg to differ. I believe that the Catholic Church is the only True Church on Earth. What do you mean by places? Do you mean denominations or actual buildings?

DLClark, you actually misunderstand Salvation from that Ephesians passage. No one is saved by faith alone. James 2:14-26 sees to that. We are saved by GRACE. We are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace, through faith, demonstrated by our good works. And by the way, check out the verse after Ephesians 2:8-9. Ephesians 2:10 says “for we are His workmanship, created in His Image for good works, we He prepared in advance.” That verse is at odds with the Faith Alone model of Salvation. Why would God create us for good works if good works were not necessary for Salvation?

And to answer you question: NO. And I never will reach that place, because that would lull me into a false sense of security in my Salvation, which I can never know if I have. The Bible tells me to “work out my Salvation with fear and trembling” so that is what I do. I fear God and never assume that I am saved.

 

[DonLeon]

We do not need a hierarchy or power structure to have a church. We just need to be followers of God and let the Holy Spirit guide us.

FYI: The early church had the beginnings of a hierarchy since both Paul and Peter appointed bishops to guide the early churches… The Hierarchy consisted of deacons, presbyters (priests), and bishops. Today the CC continues this hierarchy, with the addition of cardinals. A hierarchy is necessary to continue guidance and to provide a semblance of order and discipline. (The development and use of cardinals in the church today also dates back to the early church. That is another story.) The pope is a bishop, and he is the bishop of Rome. Read a history of the church for all the details.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Rightlydivide]

So here’s the real question. If (for the sake of the argument) the Catholic Church is NOT the True Church:

1. Which Protestant denomination is the True Church? Remember, the True Church is a physical church, not a spiritual fellowship of believers. James 5:14 pretty much says that the True Church is a real, physical church.
2. Why would God allow the Catholic Church to be in error for 1500 years before correcting it? In the OT, God only allowed the Jews to be in error for a hundred years or so before sending Babylon/Assyria/Persia/etc… to ruin them and show them the Truth of God. Why would God allow the Catholic Church to be in error for 10x that amount of time?

The words “true church” do not appear in scripture and as such I would contend the premise faulty.
The church is the saved in one sense:

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

I likewise reject the premise of the second question as well. I do not think the faith of the NT is Catholicism. I do not think the faith of the ante-nicene church is present day Catholicism; although many false teaching were around in the church since the beginning; see the seven churches of Revelation.
As far as how long God takes to restore things, even if I did believe your premise, you do realize how long it took to have the boundaries of the nation of Israel restored?

But to clarify your 1500 beyond a reasonable historical doubt; please note the earliest “Protestant” confession:

pb.org/articles/walden.html

 

[TheWhoFreak]

The words “true church” do not appear in scripture and as such I would contend the premise faulty.
The church is the saved in one sense:

Would you also conted the premise of the Trinity faulty, because the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible either. Just because something isn’t stated black-and-white in the Bible is no reason to write it off as false. I ask you the same question I ask all other people in this thread: The Bible makes it clear that Christ’s Church is a real, physical place. It is NOT some spiritual fellowship of believers.

You state that the Church is the “saved” in one sense. That’s not a church. We know that as the Body of Christ. All Christians are in the Body of Christ, but only some are part of His True Church. Which brings me back, for a fourth time, to my original question. If the CC isn’t the True Church, what is?

I likewise reject the premise of the second question as well. I do not think the faith of the NT is Catholicism. I do not think the faith of the ante-nicene church is present day Catholicism; although many false teaching were around in the church since the beginning; see the seven churches of Revelation.
As far as how long God takes to restore things, even if I did believe your premise, you do realize how long it took to have the boundaries of the nation of Israel restored?

Your incredible ignorance of Church history shows here. Get your facts straight. The Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian church around intil 1054 A.D. when the Orthodox church was formed. That was the FIRST recognized split from the CC until 1500 A.D.

It seems that you think that the 7 Churches of Revelation were churches of different denominations. I’ll call you out on this error:

1. 
   *]This was written only 60-70 years after Jesus’s death. How could there be so much disagreement so soon?
   *]Your interpretation is wrong. The Churches of Revelation are churches from the same denomination, but they all have different flaws
   *]History disagrees with your opinion. The Catholic Church teaches the same stuff now as it did when Jesus founded it. We have scholars who can back these claims up.