A Question For Protestants

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Cathdefender

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Protestants: Do you believe in the early church fathers?

If not, why not?

If you attempt to say that you only go by the bible, it was the church fathers who created the bible, so why wouldn’t you listen to men God chose to reveal His Word to?

Are the church fathers teaching credited to them in your church? (Salvation, justification, Trinity, etc…)

For example does your religious leader state who it was that revealed the Doctrine of the Trinity? (A.D. 325 Council of Nicea)
 
We recongnize the contribution of the ECF’s in Christian history. We believe they were sincere. There were other groups in those first centuries of the Christian movement which vied for dominance. The 'proto-catholic/orthodox" groups finally won their place, mainly due to the developing myth of “apostolic sucession” they taught and the hierarchy of government they employed.

Catholicism/Orthodoxy became the dominant form of Christianity for 1500 years. With the majority of the Western world illiterate and uneducated the church was the repository of literature…with the “explosion” of literacy after the advent of the printing press and the publication of the Bible available to the common man, things changed drastically.

The ECF’s and their “decendants” gained dominance in the Christian world with the acceptance of their version of Christianity by the Roman emperor. The Christian message was preserved through their writings and a deep spirituality provided down through the ages.

Do I 'believe the ECF’s"…I believe they believed what they understood…it is apocrypha that they were “taught by the apostles”. We have no direct written gospels or letters from any of the original apostles. We have the writings of Paul and various schools of Christianity…the best known writings are today bound in what is known as “The Bible”…but with the discovery of Nag Hamaddi, Dead Sea Scrolls, Gospel of Judas and a few others, the history of Christianity has bee greatly expanded and much better understood how Western Christianity developed from one school of thought among many to the dominant understanding…at least until recently.
 
Publisher said:
We recongnize the contribution of the ECF’s in Christian history. We believe they were sincere. There were other groups in those first centuries of the Christian movement which vied for dominance. The 'proto-catholic/orthodox" groups finally won their place, mainly due to the developing myth of “apostolic sucession” they taught and the hierarchy of government they employed.

Catholicism/Orthodoxy became the dominant form of Christianity for 1500 years. With the majority of the Western world illiterate and uneducated the church was the repository of literature…with the “explosion” of literacy after the advent of the printing press and the publication of the Bible available to the common man, things changed drastically.

The ECF’s and their “decendants” gained dominance in the Christian world with the acceptance of their version of Christianity by the Roman emperor. The Christian message was preserved through their writings and a deep spirituality provided down through the ages.

Do I 'believe the ECF’s"…I believe they believed what they understood…it is apocrypha that they were “taught by the apostles”. We have no direct written gospels or letters from any of the original apostles. We have the writings of Paul and various schools of Christianity…the best known writings are today bound in what is known as “The Bible”…but with the discovery of Nag Hamaddi, Dead Sea Scrolls, Gospel of Judas and a few others, the history of Christianity has bee greatly expanded and much better understood how Western Christianity developed from one school of thought among many to the dominant understanding…at least until recently.
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If you don’t mind my asking, why do you even accept the Bible as a collection of Divinely Inspired books?

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew
 
Harpazo said:
If you don’t mind my asking, why do you even accept the Bible as a collection of Divinely Inspired books?

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew
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The writings of those first Christians, some of the writings which have been compiled in the book we know as the Bible, are inspired in that they reflect our understanding of God…but imperfectly. The scriptures should be studied but are not the Word of God…which has more “authority” the Inspirer or the inspiried? We are to live in that Time spoken of in the Prophets…where God would write His word on our hearts and dwell among us. Christ is Present among us to teach us Himself, the Bible is a tool, but other collections of writings bear the stamp of 'inspiration" as well, from those who experienced the Light Within and sought to convey that experience in the written word.

I have great reverence for Scripture, and believe that portions of it records the “word of the Lord” as others sought to convey it…it is a record of man’s search to understand the Eternal and convey in words their experience…but it is not the Experience Itself…just the attempt to put into words what was Experienced.

The Gospel of Thomas, some of the Nag Hamaddi Library and the Dead Sea Scrolls, seek to do the same, but in our “collective” understanding, the books of the Bible “speak to our Experience” as Christians the best.
 
Publisher, you are ignoring the writings from the ECF, such as Augustine, Polycarp, Ignatius etc…the ones that aren’t even in the bible. What about these hundreds of writings from these Catholic doctors of the church? Who wrote before any Protestant saw the light of day? Are you to deny these also?
 
Cathdefender said:
Publisher, you are ignoring the writings from the ECF, such as Augustine, Polycarp, Ignatius etc…the ones that aren’t even in the bible. What about these hundreds of writings from these Catholic doctors of the church? Who wrote before any Protestant saw the light of day? Are you to deny these also?
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No I don’t “deny” what the ECF’s wrote and taught…they reflect the beliefs of the dominant strain of Christianity which gained prominence. I simply do not accept everything from their pens as Truth…if their writings have value to you and you find comfort in them and they bring you closer to your walk with God and the Light and Love of God is displayed in your life as you move and work and seek to be His Hands and Feet in this world, so much the better.
 
Cathdefender said:
Protestants: Do you believe in the early church fathers?
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Do I believe in the Early Church Fathers? I think I’ll respond as Mark Twain did when he was asked whether or not he believed in infant baptism.

“Believe in it? Why, I’ve see it done!”

Of course I believe in the Early Church Fathers.
 
Publisher said:
No I don’t “deny” what the ECF’s wrote and taught…they reflect the beliefs of the dominant strain of Christianity which gained prominence. I simply do not accept everything from their pens as Truth…if their writings have value to you and you find comfort in them and they bring you closer to your walk with God and the Light and Love of God is displayed in your life as you move and work and seek to be His Hands and Feet in this world, so much the better.
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Why would the ECF lie? you are calling them liars if you do not believe them. You won’t admit it because then you might be labeled a Catholic. There are way to many of them who tell the same story which would make it impossible not to believe. But if being a “Quaker” makes you feel good, so be it. There weren’t any Quakers back in the day. All religion is man made except for the Catholic church, unless you call Jesus the man.
 
O.S.Luke said:
Do I believe in the Early Church Fathers? I think I’ll respond as Mark Twain did when he was asked whether or not he believed in infant baptism.

“Believe in it? Why, I’ve see it done!”

Of course I believe in the Early Church Fathers.
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👍 👍
 
Cathdefender said:
Why would the ECF lie? you are calling them liars if you do not believe them. You won’t admit it because then you might be labeled a Catholic. There are way to many of them who tell the same story which would make it impossible not to believe. But if being a “Quaker” makes you feel good, so be it. There weren’t any Quakers back in the day. All religion is man made except for the Catholic church, unless you call Jesus the man.
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I didn’t say they “lied” …that is your word, not mine. That I do not believe them is not calling them a liar…I do not believe your understanding of the Eternal, but I have not called you a “liar”…it is your understanding.

I do not seek to change your understanding, simply convey mine and provide an answer to the “Question for Protestants” as I am able to answer.

If your beliefs bring you closer to God, make your words more gentle to others and your life more loving. If they cause you to walk in peace and show mercy and kindness. If your life is lived in Truth, then that is all the “proof” you need for your faith.

I know where I once was…and there was One who “spoke to my condition”, and has “raised me up”…I’m ok with your beliefs…I’m ok with mine too.
 
Publisher said:
I didn’t say they “lied” …that is your word, not mine. That I do not believe them is not calling them a liar…I do not believe your understanding of the Eternal, but I have not called you a “liar”…it is your understanding.

I do not seek to change your understanding, simply convey mine and provide an answer to the “Question for Protestants” as I am able to answer.

If your beliefs bring you closer to God, make your words more gentle to others and your life more loving. If they cause you to walk in peace and show mercy and kindness. If your life is lived in Truth, then that is all the “proof” you need for your faith.

I know where I once was…and there was One who “spoke to my condition”, and has “raised me up”…I’m ok with your beliefs…I’m ok with mine too.
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🙂
 
Cathdefender said:
And I am suppose to listen to these anti-Catholic websites you provided? From an ex-Catholic nun? Nice try though.
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Yes, actually when they are loaded with quotes from early Christians…yes actually you should.
 
Cathdefender said:
Protestants: Do you believe in the early church fathers?
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Believe in them how? Yes they existed, no they aren’t infallible. They were the spiritual leaders of their day. The main thing making them more authoritative than the current Spiritual leader is that there was less time elapsing between them and Jesus’ walk on the earth.
If not, why not?
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Well they didn’t all agree all the time. That in itself shows they ar enot infallible.
Are the church fathers teaching credited to them in your church? (Salvation, justification, Trinity, etc…)
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For example does your religious leader state who it was that revealed the Doctrine of the Trinity? (A.D. 325 Council of Nicea)
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Quotes are occasionally used in sermon notes.
 
Could you show me the ones you think that were contradictable?
 
Rightlydivide said:
they were not Roman Catholic

catholicconcerns.com/Rome.html
www.confrontingcatholicism.com

I hope I am allowed to post links that make valid historical arguments…
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I read them. The first one does contain a few assertions that are biblically and historically inaccurate, but I am sure they can be reasoned away. I will try to find the books cited, but the one that implies that the early Church did not worship on Sunday is very problematic.

The second one is a typical mis-quote and half-quote anti-Catholic work. For example, no rational is given as to why the Church calls Mary “Mother of God.” It just throws it out there and lets you draw your own conclusions.
 
Cathdefender said:
Protestants: Do you believe in the early church fathers?
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When you say believe in then I assume you mean: do I believe their teachings vs. do I believe they existed?? Assuming believe in their teachings I would say yes to a certain point.
If not, why not?
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I believe the early church fathers’ teachings as far as those who contributed to canonized scripture. With regard to other church fathers I think their writings can be helpful to understand what the early church may have been doing and certainly would pay more attention to those who had possible direct contact with an Apostle such as Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, Iraneus.
If you attempt to say that you only go by the bible, it was the church fathers who created the bible, so why wouldn’t you listen to men God chose to reveal His Word to?
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I do trust the creators of the Bible which is why I trust the Bible. No disrespect but this is a meaningless question and only leads to your conclusion that we must then trust the Roman Catholic church. I don’t trust the Roman Catholic church’s interpretation of the Bible so there is a big difference between trusting the creators of the Bible and those who try to interpret it.
Are the church fathers teaching credited to them in your church? (Salvation, justification, Trinity, etc…)
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The Bible is credited with everything. Church fathers after the Apostles who wrote commentary on the Bible can be used to support what’s already in the Bible. But church fathers did not invent salvation, justification, and the trinity etc. I don’t need an ECF to tell me what the bible states about these items.

I never really understood/believed the trinity until I read scripture.
For example does your religious leader state who it was that revealed the Doctrine of the Trinity? (A.D. 325 Council of Nicea)
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The council of Nicea did not reveal the doctrine of the Trinity as if it was a new belief. The doctrine was created to explicitly state what the church already believed in which was a Triune GOD. But the council appealed to scripture to support it’s claims. It didn’t invent the trinity without Biblical support. The word Trinity is not outright used in the Bible but there are plenty of verses that let us know Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of and from GOD. Jesus himself stated that He and the Father are one in the same.

PEACE
 
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