A Question For Protestants

[trustinyou]

We recongnize the contribution of the ECF’s in Christian history. We believe they were sincere. There were other groups in those first centuries of the Christian movement which vied for dominance. The 'proto-catholic/orthodox" groups finally won their place, mainly due to the developing myth of “apostolic sucession” they taught and the hierarchy of government they employed.

Catholicism/Orthodoxy became the dominant form of Christianity for 1500 years. With the majority of the Western world illiterate and uneducated the church was the repository of literature…with the “explosion” of literacy after the advent of the printing press and the publication of the Bible available to the common man, things changed drastically.

The ECF’s and their “decendants” gained dominance in the Christian world with the acceptance of their version of Christianity by the Roman emperor. The Christian message was preserved through their writings and a deep spirituality provided down through the ages.

Do I 'believe the ECF’s"…I believe they believed what they understood…it is apocrypha that they were “taught by the apostles”. We have no direct written gospels or letters from any of the original apostles. We have the writings of Paul and various schools of Christianity…the best known writings are today bound in what is known as “The Bible”…but with the discovery of Nag Hamaddi, Dead Sea Scrolls, Gospel of Judas and a few others, the history of Christianity has bee greatly expanded and much better understood how Western Christianity developed from one school of thought among many to the dominant understanding…at least until recently.

Developing myth of apostolic sucession?? can you explain your conculsion??

 

[Cathdefender]

Cathdefender;3749409:

Read your post here out loud to yourself and try to make a conscienceable effort to make yourself believe it truly in your heart. It won’t happen. It only exists in words because you wish to believe it, you have been trained to profess to believe it but deeply in your Christian heart you know that it is not true. It IS contrary to Holy Scripture and was NOT spoken by Jesus in the Gospels. Put your faith in Christ. Not the RCC, not Mary, not man who can deceive, molest and lie, not schemes not anything but God and his holy Word of truth and salvation. Paul got it. James got it. Peter got it. I get it! Why not you. Draw closer to God and he will draw closer to you.

The way you say “Mary”, as if she is the girl next door or something. She is The Blessed Mother to me…and one day to you as well…but you will learn the hard way.

 

[Yeshualuver]

Protestants: Do you believe in the early church fathers?

If not, why not?

If you attempt to say that you only go by the bible, it was the church fathers who created the bible, so why wouldn’t you listen to men God chose to reveal His Word to?

Are the church fathers teaching credited to them in your church? (Salvation, justification, Trinity, etc…)

For example does your religious leader state who it was that revealed the Doctrine of the Trinity? (A.D. 325 Council of Nicea)

Do you believe in the early church fathers?

Meaning do I believe they existed or do I hold unswaveringly to their teachings? Answer to if they existed…yes, I believe they existed. Answer to if I hold unswervingly to their teachings? No, they erred and were influenced by neo-gnosticism and neo-platonic dualism which corrupted their views of Biblical exegesis. Augustine’s “City of God” is full of allegorical hermeneutics that seriously errode the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures.

it was the church fathers who created the bible,

You can’t be serious with this one, are you? The Hebrew Scriptures were complete at least 200 years before Jesus! One of the most emminent scholars on the New Testament documents says this, and rather than re-invent the wheel I’ll quote F.F. Bruce

One thing must be emphatically stated. The New Testament books did not become authoritative for the Church because they were formally included in a canonical list; on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognizing their innate worth and generally apostolic authority, direct or indirect. The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa-at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397-but what these councils did was not to impose something new upon the Christian communities **but to codify what was already the general practice of these communities **(F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1960, p. 27).

The sooner the church goes back the it’s Hebrew roots of her faith rather than relying Greek thought promulgated by Augustine, Jerome and others, the more biblical she will be.

 

[joyfulseraph]

Do you believe in the early church fathers? If not, why not?

I never knew about the early church fathers until this year! At first I was a bit suspicious, but now I am more open to them. I think it’s so surprising/amazing what they wrote and I’ve only seen a small bit of quotes compared to all that was written. I still have this vague thought of “maybe false teachings came after the bible was written or after that time” that comes to me sometimes.

If you attempt to say that you only go by the bible, it was the church fathers who created the bible, so why wouldn’t you listen to men God chose to reveal His Word to?

This is something I would of said last year or a few years ago. But now I am convinced that sola scriptura isn’t right. I really don’t know why some of the things that the early church fathers wrote weren’t very much included in the bible. Maybe someone would say “Maybe they were wrong. I only listen to the early followers of Jesus, represented in the bible.”

Are the church fathers teaching credited to them in your church? (Salvation, justification, Trinity, etc…)

I don’t currently attend a church, but I don’t think much of them ever were.

For example does your religious leader state who it was that revealed the Doctrine of the Trinity?

I’m not sure. When I was a kid and learning about religion, I don’t remember being told about things like that in great detail. But that was long ago.

 

[Cathdefender]

Meaning do I believe they existed or do I hold unswaveringly to their teachings? Answer to if they existed…yes, I believe they existed. Answer to if I hold unswervingly to their teachings? No, they erred and were influenced by neo-gnosticism and neo-platonic dualism which corrupted their views of Biblical exegesis. Augustine’s “City of God” is full of allegorical hermeneutics that seriously errode the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures.

You can’t be serious with this one, are you? The Hebrew Scriptures were complete at least 200 years before Jesus! One of the most emminent scholars on the New Testament documents says this, and rather than re-invent the wheel I’ll quote F.F. Bruce

The sooner the church goes back the it’s Hebrew roots of her faith rather than relying Greek thought promulgated by Augustine, Jerome and others, the more biblical she will be.

The OT was always divided into three main portions, The Law, the Prophets and the Writings. The Law which at one time formed the sole book of Scripture that the Jews poSessed. Moses wrote it, and placed a copy of it in the Ark; that was about 3300 years ago. Other two books were added forming the complete OT.
When was it compiled? Some would say around the year 430 B.C. under Esdras and Nehemiah, resting upon the authority of the famous Jew, Josephus, who lived immediately after our Lord, and who declares that since the death of Ataxerxes, B.C. 424, no one had dared to add or subtract anything from these Scriptures.
It wasn’t until or near 100 B.C. that the OT volume was finally closed by the inclusion of the ‘Writings’.
One thing is certain, that is, for 100 years before the birth of our Lord–the OT existed precisely as we have it now.
I am speaking so far about the OT in Hebrew, because it was written by Jewish authority in the Jewish language, namely, Hebrew, for Jews. But after what is called ‘dispersion’ of the Jews, when that people was scattered abroad and settled in many other lands outside Palestine, and began to lose their Hebrew tongue and gradually become familiar with Greek, which was the Universal language, it was necessary to give them a copy of their Scriptures in the Greek language. Then came about the translation of the Hebrew OT into Greek known as the Septuagint.
It was finally superseded by the grand and most important version made by St. Jerome in Latin called the Vulgate.
St. Jerome who was a monk, and perhaps the most learned scholar of his day, at the command of Pope St. Damascus in 382 A.D., made a fresh Latin Version of the NT (which by this time was practically settled) correcting the existing versions by the earliest Greek MSS. he could find. Then in his cell at Bethlehem, between approximately the years 392-404, he also translated the Old Testament into Latin DIRECTLY from Hebrew (and not from the Greek Septuagint), except the Psalter which he previously revised from existing Latin versions.
THIS BIBLE WAS THE CELEBRATED VULGATE, THE OFFICIAL TEXT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Why do Protestants think Constantine founded the Catholic church? Is this what they teach them in their ‘auditoriums’? Your pastors have wrong information…man, anyone will say anything against the church.

I cant speak for the Prostestants, but from what I have gathered here from CA, Many non catholics and protestants have been and are still being misinformed about the Catholic faith and its origin. Yes, protestants and non catholics are being LIED to from their leaderships who teach such false claims. Because they find the Only church in existance since the apostles, they reach for straws to draw their false conclusions about the Catholic church inorder to try and discredit her.

So I will state here, Constantine was never a pope. He moved his capital from Rome to the Eastern empire (Constantinople) leaving the Catholic Pope to oversee the Church of Jesus Christ from Rome. The Pagan Roman emperor lifted the persecution of the Catholic church to worship openly the teachings of Jesus and the Oral Traditions of the Apostles.

There is much more to be said, of how Constantine ruled from the East, and how the Eastern church reveers him as a saint, Roman Catholics only look to him as a good man who lifted the persecution of the Catholic church and allowed the Pope and his councils freedom to bring the teachings of Jesus handed them from the apostles out of Hiding, and worked on putting the bible together. The Pope was already reveered as the successor of Peter by the early church fathers and Saints including those from the Eastern Church.

How this blunder of lies is believed by prostestants that Constantine was a pope makes one wonder how their leadership and man made religions in the name of Christianity comes from the deciever himself, inorder to decieve the sheep of God.Protestants and non catholics; forget why many a pope and Catholic (christian) martyrs were killed for their belief in the Eucharist, and Jesus teachings, and that their Christianity comes from the Catholic church including their bible.

What is interesting here, is that Prostestants peak into history, twist the historical facts to support their doctrines and belief’s and think they can fool Gods people by making false claims about the Catholic church, but they never mention anything of how the Roman Catholic church went through so much turmoil, sacrafice, suffered martyrdom for the Christian faith, that they so take for granted, and change the original teachings so easily because they did not spill their blood for the Christian faith, as did our early church fathers, apostles, saints, popes, and martyrs.

“To be steeped in History is to be Catholic” Jesus Church he built on Peter, still lives today unchanged for over 2millenium, Jesus words and promise have not failed his Church because Peter our present day Pope is still here, waiting for his second coming.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Absolutely! It’s all in Scripture and its about how the Holy Spirit guided and discerned the early church. Not about one single denomination. Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or otherwise.

All is not in scripture; Just the apostles, and our first 3 Popes are in sacred Scripture, all other church fathers writings and teachings are in the possession of the Catholic church or museums in protestant control.

This is a ridiculous claim that the Catholic church is a denomination, I hope this was not your intention? The Catholic church is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant made present by Jesus Christ himself. This humanly attachment of a denomination as if to say that the Catholic church comes from a man of the world as did all protestant denominations ( denominated from the Catholic church) has no credence or historical support other than those decievers who claim that Jesus is not fully God, and fully human. (who built his Church on Peter, now that is in sacred scripture).

So please dont call the Roman Catholic church a denomination, because it is proven fact historically, humanly and spiritually that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself, Check your local library encyclopedia’s. If not ask a Jew,or ask history.

Peace and truth of Jesus be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I would say that most Protestants, at least in America do not know who Constantine was. Same with Catholics. So, no most do not think that he started the Church. There are some who do. Many agnostis and atheists think that too.

I can name at least 2 christian sects, that believe and teach this to their communities. Seven day adventist, Mormonism, this is just 2 mind you, can you imagine how many are decieved about the Catholic church after being informed by this teaching just once a year?

You know I can deal with disagreements or misunderstandings of my Roman Catholic faith. But when lies play a part in revealing Jesus to our brothers and sisters, in order to take them out of the Catholic church or discredit her by Lies, then the lie or deception must be put out in order to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal truth about the body of Jesus Christ on earth.

I may not get any protestants or non catholics to prove these false teachings, because they cant. At least who ever reads these will seek out the truth or question their leaders when they try to decieve them about the Catholic church Jesus instituted on Peter.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Meaning do I believe they existed or do I hold unswaveringly to their teachings? Answer to if they existed…yes, I believe they existed. Answer to if I hold unswervingly to their teachings? No, they erred and were influenced by neo-gnosticism and neo-platonic dualism which corrupted their views of Biblical exegesis. Augustine’s “City of God” is full of allegorical hermeneutics that seriously errode the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures.

You can’t be serious with this one, are you? The Hebrew Scriptures were complete at least 200 years before Jesus! One of the most emminent scholars on the New Testament documents says this, and rather than re-invent the wheel I’ll quote F.F. Bruce

The sooner the church goes back the it’s Hebrew roots of her faith rather than relying Greek thought promulgated by Augustine, Jerome and others, the more biblical she will be.

**I think you need to re read your commentary, what F.F Bruce (post #43) is acknowledging in passing, is that an approved list of the canonical books was already in existence, for the Church councils to approve. This my friend, the list he is talking about in passing was comprised by a Catholic saint way before the books were officially approved. So I can not disagree with F.F Bruce’s commentary, all I can say is he is not telling you everything. If you would like to know more about what your commentary swiftly passed over, let me know?

The Catholic church is the fulfillment of the Old Testament,that is why she has all the canonical books, both Old and New testaments. If you care to delve in the Mass, you will find the fulfillment of both the Hebrew Law and prophets through Jesus Christ himself. Catholics only do and worship as Jesus taught us, who fulfilled the passover, the matzoth, feast of tabernacles, 10 commandments, all prophetic prophecy and prophetic psalms etc, etc,. What do you mean by; if the Church went back to her hebrew roots? when the Catholic church is living out what the Hebrew roots intended for humanity to do in the New and Everlasting Covenant in Jesus Christ.

Now if your referring to a commandment that Jesus did not fulfill, let us hear it? To do this you disclaim that Jesus was not fully divine and fully human. Then your true colors will be exposed of what type of new form of christianity you believe in or not?

Peace be with you**

 

[Cathdefender]

I cant speak for the Prostestants, but from what I have gathered here from CA, Many non catholics and protestants have been and are still being misinformed about the Catholic faith and its origin. Yes, protestants and non catholics are being LIED to from their leaderships who teach such false claims. Because they find the Only church in existance since the apostles, they reach for straws to draw their false conclusions about the Catholic church inorder to try and discredit her.

So I will state here, Constantine was never a pope. He moved his capital from Rome to the Eastern empire (Constantinople) leaving the Catholic Pope to oversee the Church of Jesus Christ from Rome. The Pagan Roman emperor lifted the persecution of the Catholic church to worship openly the teachings of Jesus and the Oral Traditions of the Apostles.

There is much more to be said, of how Constantine ruled from the East, and how the Eastern church reveers him as a saint, Roman Catholics only look to him as a good man who lifted the persecution of the Catholic church and allowed the Pope and his councils freedom to bring the teachings of Jesus handed them from the apostles out of Hiding, and worked on putting the bible together. The Pope was already reveered as the successor of Peter by the early church fathers and Saints including those from the Eastern Church.

How this blunder of lies is believed by prostestants that Constantine was a pope makes one wonder how their leadership and man made religions in the name of Christianity comes from the deciever himself, inorder to decieve the sheep of God.Protestants and non catholics; forget why many a pope and Catholic (christian) martyrs were killed for their belief in the Eucharist, and Jesus teachings, and that their Christianity comes from the Catholic church including their bible.

What is interesting here, is that Prostestants peak into history, twist the historical facts to support their doctrines and belief’s and think they can fool Gods people by making false claims about the Catholic church, but they never mention anything of how the Roman Catholic church went through so much turmoil, sacrafice, suffered martyrdom for the Christian faith, that they so take for granted, and change the original teachings so easily because they did not spill their blood for the Christian faith, as did our early church fathers, apostles, saints, popes, and martyrs.

“To be steeped in History is to be Catholic” Jesus Church he built on Peter, still lives today unchanged for over 2millenium, Jesus words and promise have not failed his Church because Peter our present day Pope is still here, waiting for his second coming.

Peace be with you

Beautifully said…do you mean
To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant—John Henry Newman

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Beautifully said…do you mean
To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant—John Henry Newman

I am humbled by your memory and intellegence , although I have read and heard it different ways but still the same meaning by different authors who referr to this famous quote by Newman. Thanks for setting the record straight, now That you brought in the heavy weight, helps my commentay,

God bless you and peace in Jesus Christ.

 

[Cathdefender]

I am humbled by your memory and intellegence , although I have read and heard it different ways but still the same meaning by different authors who referr to this famous quote by Newman. Thanks for setting the record straight, now That you brought in the heavy weight, helps my commentay,

God bless you and peace in Jesus Christ.