A question for protestants

[revertconvert]

Why do most(not all) protestant denominations hold such animosity towards the Catholic Church? (alot do not even consider Catholics Christians) Why do they not look at what the Church teaches? The Catholic position has been that the protestants worship the same God (the trinity) and acknowledge the truths held by these denominations. Why no reciprocity?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Why do most (not all) protestant denominations hold such animosity towards the Catholic Church? (alot do not even consider Catholics Christians) Why do they not look at what the Church teaches? The Catholic position has been that the protestants worship the same God (the trinity) and acknowledge the truths held by these denominations. Why no reciprocity?

There are not 100 people in America who hate the Catholic Church, there are however millions who hate WHAT THEY THINK the Church teaches…which, as we know, is not the same thing.
-Archbishop Fulton Sheen
Its all about Protestants being fed misconceptions and lies about what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches. Often these lies and misconceptions have been repeated for so long they become practically true in the Protestant mind.

 

[rr1213]

Unfortunately, many Protestants do not consider Catholics to be saved because Catholics do not believe in the necessity of being “born again”…at least in the way that evangelical Protestants do. So, if you are not born again, you are not saved. Also unfortunately Catholics believe that most (but not all) Protestants will perish because we are not part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church and there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now, you will see blurring along the edges of these extreme views by both Protestants and Catholics, but this is the gist of the matter.

 

[revertconvert]

Unfortunately, many Protestants do not consider Catholics to be saved because Catholics do not believe in the necessity of being “born again”…at least in the way that evangelical Protestants do. So, if you are not born again, you are not saved. Also unfortunately Catholics believe that most (but not all) Protestants will perish because we are not part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church and there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now, you will see blurring along the edges of these extreme views by both Protestants and Catholics, but this is the gist of the matter.

I understand that the Chuches stance on salvation outside the Church is that it is possible. so maybe I’m in that “blurring” in the middle. I was raised a Southern Baptist but I don’t remember hearing much about Catholics.I guess that is a rarity. Your quote from Bishop Sheen is so true. I don’t see why people have such an ingrained distain for something they know nothing about and are not willing to investigate on there own.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I was raised a Southern Baptist but I don’t remember hearing much about Catholics.I guess that is a rarity. Your quote from Bishop Sheen is so true. I don’t see why people have such an ingrained distain for something they know nothing about and are not willing to investigate on there own.

Its kind of like the guilty before proven innocent mentality, the Catholic Church is painted in a bad light and so most protestants assume it can only be bad. Would you ever consider looking into the KKK? No because you have grown up being told its bad, its the same for idea when most protestants think of the Catholic Church. Over time it becomes natural to think “those poor confused Catholics”.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Rev, it is my impression that most protestants do not hate catholic church because of the ecumentical movement. It is just that those who do not like the catholic church are simply more vocal.

Remember disagring on doctrine does not equal hate.

Just as most christians do not hate gay people, it is just one baptist in name only church that is very vocal about their hate.

 

[Della]

Unfortunately, many Protestants do not consider Catholics to be saved because Catholics do not believe in the necessity of being “born again”…at least in the way that evangelical Protestants do. So, if you are not born again, you are not saved.

But we do believe in the necessity of being born again, but in the way Jesus taught it, not as many Protestants have reinterpreted it. So, they are wrong about this.

Also unfortunately Catholics believe that most (but not all) Protestants will perish because we are not part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church and there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now, you will see blurring along the edges of these extreme views by both Protestants and Catholics, but this is the gist of the matter.

Again, this is not what the Church teaches. For your benefit and any others who may be confused, what the Church teaches from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

With the answers you gave, dear rr1213;1850527, you have shown quite clearly why some Protestants have misgivings about the Catholic Church. Most don’t really know what the Church teaches, while some persist in believing the misinformation they have been told all their lives instead of believing what the Church has to say for itself. There’s an obvious lack of trust in the Church’s word, which has also been indoctrinated into far too many of our Protestant brethren.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Unfortunately, many Protestants do not consider Catholics to be saved because Catholics do not believe in the necessity of being “born again”…at least in the way that evangelical Protestants do. So, if you are not born again, you are not saved. Also unfortunately Catholics believe that most (but not all) Protestants will perish because we are not part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church and there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now, you will see blurring along the edges of these extreme views by both Protestants and Catholics, but this is the gist of the matter.

Actually the bolded part is true by the simple fact that *most people in general will perish. *It’s a harsh truth, but Christ himself said it.

 

[rr1213]

Again, this is not what the Church teaches. For your benefit and any others who may be confused, what the Church teaches from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:…

With the answers you gave, dear rr1213;1850527, you have shown quite clearly why some Protestants have misgivings about the Catholic Church. Most don’t really know what the Church teaches, while some persist in believing the misinformation they have been told all their lives instead of believing what the Church has to say for itself.

I am aware of the CCC passages that you cite above. I don’t think those passages are inconsistent with what I posted above and restate below:

“Also unfortunately Catholics believe that most (but not all) Protestants will perish because we are not part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church and there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now, you will see blurring along the edges of these extreme views by both Protestants and Catholics, but this is the gist of the matter.”

 

[Della]

I am aware of the CCC passages that you cite above. I don’t think those passages are inconsistent with what I posted above and restate below:

“Also unfortunately Catholics believe that most (but not all) Protestants will perish because we are not part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church and there is no salvation outside of the Church. Now, you will see blurring along the edges of these extreme views by both Protestants and Catholics, but this is the gist of the matter.”

And I would respond that your restating it in no way makes it any more true than the first time you wrote it.

Also, this just proves the point that many Protestants will believe what the want to believe no matter how much one might cite Church teaching to the contrary. How can the Catholic Church reach those who will not see? All we can do is pray and persist in telling the truth.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Why do most(not all) protestant denominations hold such animosity towards the Catholic Church? (alot do not even consider Catholics Christians) Why do they not look at what the Church teaches? The Catholic position has been that the protestants worship the same God (the trinity) and acknowledge the truths held by these denominations. Why no reciprocity?

I like most (not all) Catholics. Catholics are most certainly Christians!!! Other than some doctrinal disagreements, we’re on the same page!

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

I like most (not all) Catholics. Catholics are most certainly Christians!!! Other than some doctrinal disagreements, we’re on the same page! /QUOTE

True , however doctrine is very important.

Most protestants feel that they are the true church because they were part of the original. they feel the CC is the part of the body of Christ that became diseased and therefore had to be removed . just like in you had cancer in your physical body an MD would remove the affected part in order to save the rest. Protestants feel the CC became cancerous and since they could not cut the cancer out they cut them selfs out of a dying body.

 

[Janet_S]

Blue Serenity;1851213:

I like most (not all) Catholics. Catholics are most certainly Christians!!! Other than some doctrinal disagreements, we’re on the same page!

I am surprised you say that “protestants feel that they are the true church because they were part of the original.” Actually historical evidence gives us the opposite picture–the Catholic Church has continuity with the primitive Church. It is the original. Historical evidence is clear about this. The early Church believed in the Sacraments, the Eucharist, the Church hierarchy, praying for the dead, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, etc. You will find no evidence of the doctrines of sola Scriptura or sola fide in the early Church.

I know of many former, zealous, Bible-believing Protestants who converted to the Catholic Church (often reluctantly and at great personal loss) after studying Church history and reading the Early Church Fathers and becoming convinced that the Catholic Church was the true Church established by Christ and His Apostles.

On the other hand, I know of no case where a faithful Catholic who knows and loves his faith converts to a Protestant denomination after studying Church history and reading the ECF’s and becoming convinced that a particular Protestant Church is the true Church established by Christ and His Apostles. (If anyone know of a case like this, please let me know.) People who leave the Catholic Church do so for other reasons, not because they discover that they find the “true Church” somewhere else.

Here is a famous quote from John Henry Newman, a former Anglican who converted to the Catholic Church (reluctantly) after many years of studying the ECF’s and translating many of their writings:

“Bold outllines, which cannot be disregarded, rise out of the records of the past, when we look to see what it will give up to us: they may be dim, they may be incomplete, but they are definite:–there is that which they are not, which they cannot be. Whatever be historical Christianity, it is not Protestantism. If there were a save truth, it is this.” (Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I am surprised you say that “protestants feel that they are the true church because they were part of the original.” Actually historical evidence gives us the opposite picture–the Catholic Church has continuity with the primitive Church. It is the original. Historical evidence is clear about this. The early Church believed in the Sacraments, the Eucharist, the Church hierarchy, praying for the dead, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, etc. You will find no evidence of the doctrines of sola Scriptura or sola fide in the early Church.

I know of many former, zealous, Bible-believing Protestants who converted to the Catholic Church (often reluctantly and at great personal loss) after studying Church history and reading the Early Church Fathers and becoming convinced that the Catholic Church was the true Church established by Christ and His Apostles.

On the other hand, I know of no case where a faithful Catholic who knows and loves his faith converts to a Protestant denomination after studying Church history and reading the ECF’s and becoming convinced that a particular Protestant Church is the true Church established by Christ and His Apostles. (If anyone know of a case like this, please let me know.) People who leave the Catholic Church do so for other reasons, not because they discover that they find the “true Church” somewhere else.

Here is a famous quote from John Henry Newman, a former Anglican who converted to the Catholic Church (reluctantly) after many years of studying the ECF’s and translating many of their writings:

“Bold outllines, which cannot be disregarded, rise out of the records of the past, when we look to see what it will give up to us: they may be dim, they may be incomplete, but they are definite:–there is that which they are not, which they cannot be. Whatever be historical Christianity, it is not Protestantism. If there were a save truth, it is this.” (Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine)

The fact is most protestants I talk to dont believe, or worse yet never though about, the historicity of their denomination. The general mentality is:
Apotles —> Luther —> Their DenominationTo be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant

~Cardinal J.H. Newman

 

[rr1213]

And I would respond that your restating it in no way makes it any more true than the first time you wrote it.

Also, this just proves the point that many Protestants will believe what the want to believe no matter how much one might cite Church teaching to the contrary. How can the Catholic Church reach those who will not see? All we can do is pray and persist in telling the truth.

Ah, I beg to differ.

You ought to post a thread in the Traditional Forum asking for thoughts on what percentage of Protestants will be saved. I think you’d get only a slightly higher vote of confidence in the Apologetics forum.

I understand the teaching as expressed in the CCC above. I also know that this is an clear evolution of the much earlier teaching that there is no salvation outside of the Church. I further understand that the Church teaches that all people who are baptised under the Trinity are Christians and, that through this imperfect connection with the Church, there is the possibility that those who have not consciously rejected the Church and who die without mortal sins on their soul may go to heaven.

I don’t think that my understanding as expressed above differs much from what I originally posted.

But, in any event, I don’t think this is taking us anywhere, so…

 

[Jokerz]

For me personally, it does not bother me that Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that Protestants will “have a tough climb” up the mountain. I think this puts God in a very small box. There certainly are not any biblical references to the claim about the RCC being “the church” one can interperet Jesus’s command to Peter in many ways. I was never taught to hate Catholics. They are just another Church. They have their beliefs, I have mine. But yes there are extremists on both sides of the fence.
My question would be to Catholic extremists and Protestant extremists, what good comes out of the very heated debate? I sense its a case of fear of losing control, I could be wrong.

Peace,
Jokerz

 

[Blue_Serenity]

On the other hand, I know of no case where a faithful Catholic who knows and loves his faith converts to a Protestant denomination after studying Church history and reading the ECF’s and becoming convinced that a particular Protestant Church is the true Church established by Christ and His Apostles. (If anyone know of a case like this, please let me know.) People who leave the Catholic Church do so for other reasons, not because they discover that they find the “true Church” somewhere else.

I take it you’ve never heard of Richard Bennet? He is a former Catholic priest that converted to Protestantism but I don’t think he went to any particular denomination. You can read about him here: www.effectiveevangelism.com. It’s a good website to get a spin on things from a Protestant point of view.

 

[MrS]

I take it you’ve never heard of Richard Bennet? He is a former Catholic priest that converted to Protestantism but I don’t think he went to any particular denomination. You can read about him here: www.effectiveevangelism.com. It’s a good website to get a spin on things from a Protestant point of view.

yes many have heard of Bennet…

I contend that he did not so much “convert” to Protestantism, as he instead chose to rebel against a Jesuit “oppression”. That is obvious in his writings… he is no better than the Augustinian monk who chose to satisfy his own shortcomings through rebellion. … they both walked away, and the Lord, in sadness I am sure, let them chose their own fate.

 

[kittychorus]

I understand that the Chuches stance on salvation outside the Church is that it is possible. so maybe I’m in that “blurring” in the middle. I was raised a Southern Baptist but I don’t remember hearing much about Catholics.I guess that is a rarity. Your quote from Bishop Sheen is so true. I don’t see why people have such an ingrained distain for something they know nothing about and are not willing to investigate on there own.

I was raised Protestant- with the understanding that the different demoninations were mostly cultural and we had joined an evangelical church because of the particular group of Christians there and the building’s location in our community.

Catholics were not talked about much, but when they were it was with a bit of a sad overtone. That while Catholisism was fine, there was an impression given that many Catholics do not truly own their faith… that the concepts had become taken for granted and slowly the spirit of the Church was sort of rusting over. “Lost their first love” and “Worshipping religion instead of Christ” were phrases I heard often. There was no evidence of this exactly, it is just the impression I walked away with.

Once I was old enough to begin thinking for myself, I realized that this was a generalization… and I really didn’t know enough Catholics to guage any kind of percentage. Also, I noticed for myself that what was mentioned about the Catholics was also true for many Protestants.

Now being part of another religion entirely, I find that people have disdain for a lot of things they know nothing about and are not willing to research on their own. It’s a sad human thing, and I don’t know why it’s done, but it certainly isn’t confined to Catholics or even religions.

 

[Janet_S]

I take it you’ve never heard of Richard Bennet? He is a former Catholic priest that converted to Protestantism but I don’t think he went to any particular denomination. You can read about him here: www.effectiveevangelism.com. It’s a good website to get a spin on things from a Protestant point of view.

I read the above article about Richard Bennet, an ex-priest who converted to Protestantism. He may have had his reasons for leaving the CC, but his testimony is not the scenario I described. I said in my previous post that “I know of no case where a faithful Catholic who knows and loves his faith converts to a Protestant denomination after studying Church history and reading the ECF’s and becoming convinced that a particular Protestant Church is the true Church established by Christ and His Apostles.” I still believe this after reading Richard Bennet’s testimony, and I still offer the same challenge–show me a faithful Catholic who converts to Protestantism for the reasons in my scenario.

Richard Bennet’s testimony doesn’t fit my scenario for two reasons. First, he doesn’t fit my scenario because he didn’t study Church history to find out what the early Church was like. He never mentions anything about studying Church history or the ECF’s. Nor does he mention that history reveals that the early Church practices and beliefs were Protestant, not Catholic.

Second, his testimony doesn’t fit my scenario because it is obvious he doesn’t know the Catholic faith, and my scenario described a “faithful Catholic who knows and loves his faith.” I realize he says he was a priest, and maybe he was. He certainly should have known what the CC teaches, but he shows that he doesn’t when he says this: “This idea of gaining salvation through suffering and prayer is also the basic message of Fatima and Lourdes, and I sought to win my own salvation as well as the salvation of others by such suffering and prayer.” The CC does not teach this. It teaches that we are saved by God’s grace. Unfortunately, even some priests are poorly catechised about the truths of the faith.

He also makes this statement, apparently blaming the CC for his ignorance of the Bible: “I did not know my way through the Bible and the little I had learned over the years had taught me more to distrust it rather than to trust it. My training in philosophy and in the theology of Thomas Aquinas left me helpless, so that coming into the Bible now to find the Lord was like going into a huge dark woods without a map.” It’s unfortunate that he didn’t know the Bible, but is this the fault of the CC? The CC reveres the Holy Bible as the inspired word of God. If you have ever read the Catechism or the writings of the Popes you will see they are filled with Biblical references. To try to say that the CC is ignorant or unaware of Scripture is an outright lie.

So, I still maintain there are many zealous, Bible-loving Protestants who convert to the CC after studying Church history and the ECF’s (for example Steve Ray, Scott Hahn, Dave Armstrong, Carl Olson, Mark Shea, Leona Choy, Rosalind Moss, I could go on and on.) Google these people on the web if you are interested. They all have websites and blogs.

I have still not seen Catholics convert to Protestantism for the same reason.