P
PJM
Guest
My friend,
Is one Saved by Works, or Faith or?
WHY?
God Bless you
PJM
Is one Saved by Works, or Faith or?
WHY?
God Bless you
PJM
- Status
P
PJM
Guest
Catholic Hold that Easter in the Summit of all feast day’s
What is the position of your church? Your faith?
And WHY?
What is the position of your church? Your faith?
And WHY?
G
guanophore
Guest
The OP has Catholic understanding of salvation. He is just looking for a good dialogue with his non-Catholic siblings.
Galatians 5:6 ** For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.**
Luther’s commentary:
From the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:
Hence, I believe that we are saved by grace alone, and that our justification is by faith working through love.
Jon
A
alwayswill
Guest
from a few years ago:
By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” **Pope Benedict **qualified his statement, noting that the Apostle Paul had written about such faith in his letters, especially the one to the Philippians.
According to this report, **Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide. **
. "Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him."
According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules. **However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone. **
blogs.cbn.com/ChurchWatch/archive/2009/02/06/pope-benedict-xvi-luther-was-right.aspx
A
alwayswill
Guest
from the Vatican website
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
vatican.va/roman_curia/po…ration_en.html
“25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works.**
But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it. **”
read that again:** But whatever** in the justified
** precedes
or
follows** the free gift of faith
** is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.**
A
alwayswill
Guest
from the Vatican website
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html
"128.** Since faith is understood not only as affirmative knowledge, but also as the trust of the heart that bases itself on the Word of God,** it can further be said jointly: “Justification takes place ‘by grace alone’ (JD nos 15 and 16), by faith alone; the person is justified ‘apart from works’ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD no. 25)” (JDDJ, Annex 2C).(44) "
Personally, I think the CBN author overstates what Pope Benedict meant.
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html
Jon
G
guanophore
Guest
I have to lean with Jon on this one. We are saved neither by faith or works, but wholly by the unmerited favor of God, purchased for us by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We access this grace through faith, a faith of a particular kind - it is a faith that works, thus demonstrating it’s authenticity through it’s fruit.
A
alwayswill
Guest
“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love”
-BENEDICT XVI
There is no such thing as a God given faith that is opposed to faith in charity, in love.
The Pope’s “if” statement is meaningless because True faith is** never **opposed to faith in charity, in love.
an analogy:
Catholic farmer: the fields are very dry.
Protestant farmer: Some rain would fix the dryness…
Catholic farmer: Only “if” rain is wet…
of course rain is wet
**of course true faith includes charity, in love **
Embracing love and charity is a characteristic of a faith that saves
Opposing charity, in love would be a symptom of not having a saving faith
Of course I agree with you, but there are some who do not. Even some of Luther’s writings show a slight wedge of faith need not be formed. It isn’t what Lutheranism says, of course, but some do.
Jon
G
guanophore
Guest
One must understand Benedict’s comments in context. We are not saved by faith “and” works, but faith, working through love. Faith is never “alone” since saving faith is always accompanied by the fruit that befits repentance.
“But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.” I Cor. 13:13.
Faith and works are not set against each other, or deemed complimentary for salvation, so Benedict affirms Luther in saying that the ONLY way to access the grace that saves us is faith:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. " Eph. 2:9-10
G
guanophore
Guest
It is certainly not meaningless to those of us who pray and yearn for the healing of divisions in the Church! The Pope of Luther’s day was unable to make such an affirmation, and it has been a long time coming. One of the reasons Catholics so love our German Shepherd!
Jon is right in saying that there are many who suffer a deficient understanding of saving faith, and think it is only an assent of the will, that need not demonstrate the fruit of charity.
A
alwayswill
Guest
Got it:
Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
No amount of good works from the faithless are pleasing to God
A yet it is **impossible **
by those in Christ and Christ in them, a new creature, the old is gone, the heart of stone replaced by a heart of flesh, change by a supernatural event; the gift of faith from God ,
to be opposed to faith in charity, in love
D
drac16
Guest
I believe that it’s by faith and good deeds. Allah swears by time itself that mankind is lost, except for those who believe, do righteous deeds, exhort people to truth and endure until the end.
“By time, indeed, mankind is in loss, except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience” (Qur’an 103:1-3)
I occasionally come across a muslim brother/sister saying that they will become religious once they get older or when it’s convenient for them, but death can occur at any time, so it’s important to get on the ball.
“By time, indeed, mankind is in loss, except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience” (Qur’an 103:1-3)
I occasionally come across a muslim brother/sister saying that they will become religious once they get older or when it’s convenient for them, but death can occur at any time, so it’s important to get on the ball.
T
TonyBS
Guest
Drac16 - I like to see the progression in guidance on these Matters from Christianity on to Muhammad and now Baha’u’llah.
“O SON OF DUST! Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning”
“Live ye one with another, O people, in radiance and joy. By My life! All that are on earth shall pass away, while good deeds alone shall endure; to the truth of My words God doth Himself bear witness. Compose your differences, O My servants; then heed ye the admonition of Our Pen of Glory and follow not the arrogant and wayward”.
Regards Tony
- Status