A Question for Sola Fide "Faith Alone" Protestants

[Atemi]

Does God judge the heart? Does God judge culpability? Does God judge a fully informed conscience?

You didn’t answer the question.

Why not?

I thought it was simple enough.

Do not play games.

**I asked if they were sinners.

I asked if God judges sin.**

Is that so strange an inquiry to make of a Catholic now days?

There is a huge difference between those who have an opportunity to hear and accept the gospel and those who do not.

So those that do not hear the Gospel are not sinners?

What are you implying?

I thought that was the whole reason they needed the Gospel.

Wow.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Yes. This is what I was taught by the RCC.

The brackets mean that faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation in the Catholic view.

It helps, but is not necessary.

Just ask any Catholic if a good Muslim or Hindu can be saved and they will say yes.

But ask any Catholic if bad Muslims and Hindus can be saved, and the remarks will not be very positive.

Samaritanism is the religion practiced by the Samaritan people. Like Judaism, it claims to be descended from ancient Israelite religion. It is closely related to Judaism in that it accepts the Torah as its holy book, though there are differences in the version accepted. Samaritans consider Jewish thinkers after the Torah as having been led astray while they themselves stayed to the true religion. Their temple was at Mount Gerizim in Nablus, not Jerusalem. Very few followers remain today: about 500 living near Mt. Gerizim. [wiki]
Anyway…

John 4 [Douay]
9 Then that Samaritan woman saith to him: How dost thou, being a Jew, ask of me to drink, who am a Samaritan woman? For the Jews do not communicate with the Samaritans.

16 And he fell on his face before his feet, giving thanks: and this was a Samaritan.

48 The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

31 And it chanced, that a certain priest went down the same way: and seeing him, passed by. 32 In like manner also a Levite, when he was near the place and saw him, passed by. 33 But a certain Samaritan being on his journey, came near him; and seeing him, was moved with compassion. …
36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? 37 But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.

Was the good Samaritan damned to hell by Jesus Christ who was a Jew?
Do *you *tell people they are going to hell out of ignorance of faith in Jesus Christ?
The good Samaritan who was ignorant of Christ and who thought all Jews had been led astray in their religion is held up by Jesus Christ as the model of mercy for you to follow;

‘Go, and do thou in like manner.’

I would say that you still believe the Catholic view.

 

[DallasCatholic]

Can you not respond to what was asked?

I ask the same of you Atemi. Refer to post 36 and please respond.

 

[Pax]

This is self evident, IMO.

He also is the initiator of our faith from eternity past. Arguing outside of time may be kinda silly here.

I agree to the above, but it is no less accurate to say faith births works.
…
…

I’m glad to see that we have some agreement. It is important for us to recognize the common ground. Perhaps the common ground is greater in depth and breadth than the ground we do not share. That having been said, there are some further clarifications that might be useful.

First of all, we need to be careful about our terminology so that we do not stray from the meaning of scripture. I do not mean to quibble or to argue over words. Instead, I hope to clarify and to remove obstacles to what is meant by the apostles, Paul and James.

Your statement that “faith gives birth to works” is going to be problematic if it leads us away from the true relationship of faith and works. Likewise, your view of looking at faith and works as being created by God outside of time as “silly” is also somewhat problematic. I say these things because scripture describes the relationship between faith and works somewhat differently than the way that you portray it. Scripture specifically makes reference to God “preparing the works” that we are to walk in prior to our justification. Moreover, we are created in Christ Jesus for these same works at the moment of our justification. Eph 2:8-10 is a package deal describing justification as a “gift.” We come to faith by the grace of God and by his grace we are his workmanship[not our own workmanship] and thus a “new creation in Christ Jesus for good works.” These things happen simultaneously at our justification and are not separate from one another. Likewise, they cannot be separated thereafter in the Christian walk.

Faith and works are inextricably intertwined; otherwise being a new creation in Christ Jesus becomes meaningless. God’s purpose for the predestined is that they be "conformed to the image of His Son.[see Rom 8:29]. We are not simply declared righteous in a forensic sense. We are instead made righteous and become adopted sons and daughters that are to live righteously by walking in the Spirit. The Lord has sprinkled us with clean water removing our sins, replaced our hearts of stone with hearts of flesh, and put His own Spirit within us, and He causes us to walk in his ways in loving obedience. [See Ezk 36:25-27, Acts 2:37-39, Eph 2:8-10, Rom 6:1-6, Rom 7:4-6, 2 Cor 5:14-17, and many others,]

The most powerful analogy that can be given to explain the relationship between faith and works is found in scripture. I have yet to find a more meaningful or vivid expression of this relationship than that given to us by the apostle James. In James 2:24-26 the apostle says:

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
…For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

The comparison of faith and works to the relationship of body and spirit says it all. Think about this…it is filled with meaning. This analogy says the following to us:

–Faith is made analogous to the body, and works are analogous to the spirit.

–A person is composed of body and spirit. Likewise, justification is made up of faith and works.

–In the person the body is animated by the spirit. Likewise, in justification, faith is animated/completed by works.

–A person is alive when the body and spirit are together. Likewise, faith is alive and completed when accompanied by works.

–The body is dead without the spirit. Likewise, faith is dead without works.

–The union of body and spirit expresses the union of faith and works.

–Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead.

–To be alive has a temporal dimension and a spiritual dimension attached to eternity. Likewise, a living faith animated and completed by works has a temporal dimension and a spiritual dimension attached to eternity. Eternal life is attached to a living faith. A living faith must have works or there is no justification and no eternal life. A dead faith is a faith that has no works and cannot save you.

I have never had any “faith alone” believer honestly and logically deal with James analogy of faith and works compared to the body and spirit. Frankly, I think this analogy pretty much nails it. James gives us a powerful word picture to remove any possible doubt. We are saved God’s grace by the salvific work of Jesus’s passion, death, and resurrection, through faith and works but not by faith alone.

I hope this helps.

 

[Atemi]

Atemi my brother,

You have spoken of insults and claim that “This is all I have really experienced since I started posting here.” Please be advised that we should all be as charitable as possible. As you know, I have until recently spent time over at CARM (as STJ) and I can tell you that you have been treated much better here than the Catholics are treated over there.

Not quite, though I do get more abuse from our Catholic friends over at CARM.

We’ll see here. The Catholics on CARM are always lecturing us about Christian charity, and I am intrigued by the particular brand practiced here.

I will apologize for myself and the Catholics on this forum for any insults directed at you.

STJ, you have not cast any insults. Your posts are always professional.

We can disagree and be professional. Sure.

Likewise, when you visit our house you must be more circumspect in how you address us.

If you mean “walk on eggshells,” then forget it.

If you mean follow the rules and not insult others, then I am all with that, and have been doing no less.

I do no different on CARM.

Of course, I have altered my use of language for CA, as I do not yet believe dissenters are as free here as at CARM.

Sometimes, people unwittingly push one another’s buttons and the temperatures rise. We all have a part to play in how we communicate with one another.

Agreed.

You know I am experienced with the discussion forum. I am fully aware of the sensitivities.

Thank you personally for the pleasant treatment of my particular loyal opposition.

 

[Pax]

Interesting reply. Perhaps it is all in the perspective of each individual. My experience at CARM has been rather mixed. In general I think the atmosphere is very unfriendly to Catholics. There seems to be certain amount of back and forth shots between the participants that creates more heat than light. I must say that you never insulted me and I don’t remember you insulting anyone else for that matter. I thank you for that…it is a sign of Christian charity.

I can only hope that you find your stay here to be a positive one.

Peace and good will.

 

[Atemi]

Interesting reply. Perhaps it is all in the perspective of each individual.

That plays into all this for sure.

My experience at CARM has been rather mixed. In general I think the atmosphere is very unfriendly to Catholics.

I guess. I never gathered anything else.

Here it is unfriendly to non-Catholics…but I am sure you don’t see that as much.

I guess it all depends on what “unfriendly” means. I have been called “unfriendly” and “uncharitable” just for saying I believe that the RCC has no divine mandate and thus holds a fraudulent position within Christendom.

When you rain on what someone views as sacred, this is hard to avoid.

There seems to be certain amount of back and forth shots between the participants that creates more heat than light. I must say that you never insulted me and I don’t remember you insulting anyone else for that matter. I thank you for that…it is a sign of Christian charity.

Yes, speaking with you has always been a pleasure. I do understand very well how my stated positions do not sit well with those who love the Catholic Church, so thank you for implying that my posts could possibly be charitable.

I can only hope that you find your stay here to be a positive one.

Amen.

As do I.

See you on the flip side…

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t realize that Paul wrote the book of James.

Try reading it when you are half asleep! Obviously, it can be done!

 

[guanophore]

The Church clearly says that one can merit the grace necessary for the attaniment of eternal life.

Clear as day. All the qualifiers are irrelevant for my point.

As a Catholic, you are free to reject that, as most Catholics do reject what the Church teaches anyway.

Actually Atemi, this is not true. When a person rejects what the Church teaches, they become Protestant, and are no longer Catholic. However, I agree with you that there are a lot of “Catholics” who do not accept the teaching of the church.

 

[guanophore]

Are you telling me that the Catholic Church teaches that all those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ are damned?

Please.

I dare not cite the Catechism here because it claims both that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation and that those without faith in Jesus Christ can be saved.

LOL.

This is where everyone and their brother comes out and redefines what “necessary” means, but I gotta go with the actual definition here.

I cannot account for the contradiction in the Catechism, nor do I want to try. That is the job of the RC apologist.

For the RC, there is no contradiciton. If there appears to be one, it is because the reader does not understand.

 

[Atemi]

For the RC, there is no contradiciton. If there appears to be one, it is because the reader does not understand.

Of course…

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain…

 

[Trento]

So now you are insistent that faith in Jesus Christ is indeed optional.

Hmmm.

First I said that the Catholic Church teaches that faith in Jesus Christ is optional to be saved and you challenged that. Now you agree.

What is anyone supposed to do with that?

Are they sinners?

Does God judge sin?

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:1-16; interestingly, in these two chapter of Romans St. Paul summarizes Wisdom 13-19)

The ``law unto themselves’’ is man’s participation in God’s eternal law, sometimes known as the natural law. Significantly, St. Paul has not mentioned faith in Christ as a condition for knowledge of this natural law: it is a law knowable by all men without respect to creed. As St. Paul says, it is written on men’s hearts, though it can be clouded by sin.

**St. Luke, who was a disciple of St. Paul, reports in his gospel the words of Jesus: **

And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Lk 12:47-48, cf. Lk 19:26, Mt 25:29, Mk 4:25)

It is finally God alone who sees into men’s hearts and what truth they have been given in life, and it is he who will judge on this basis. It is not for human judges to divide the sheep from the goats.

 

[Atemi]

You answered none of my questions.

I believe these are fair questions. Not only that, but they are extremely important questions.

If we as Christians cannot identify who is sick and in need of the Physician, then we are impotent for God’s Kingdom.

I have yet anyone show me a normal, but sinless, man. If you know those who are sinless, and have no need of repenting and believing the Gospel, please let me know of them.

That would be a sight for sure…