A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

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An interesting question which none of us can answer, yet. But this wasn’t actually my point as such. My point was in response to the consideration that the person I replied to had said that a church that had ‘caved on one issue’ (ie. had some allowance or acceptance of it) would lack moral clarity and could not hold authority. That seems like a big leap to me. Also my comment was with reference to contraception and how if we hear a Gospel of Love then what should we do to spread and live out that Truth of Godly love?

I think any one who examines morals or ethics carefully knows there is never any of the afforementioned clarity; especially if we are sensitive to the context that they are to be excercised in.

The appropriate question would probably be better phrased as If I use Christ as my lens, [ie. we consider his work and words to inform current or future situations] how do I believe my faith compels me to behave? It would be precisely this type of question that allows us to learn more about God in our own personal relationship with Him (perhaps better referred to as ‘Ordinary Theology’). Often, we don’t scripture that is directly relevant to modern ethical dilemas, and when we have ones which are relevant or do translate well to those ethical dilemas we need to also be conscious of the context, culture and the author of them.

I was very cautious in my previous response, and deliberately commented from a personal point of view… I often remark that I do not have the answers, but in light of abc I believe xyz. This isn’t unusual, most people do this on some level… but I say this to highlight the idea that I can’t say what God physically “says” only how my understanding and His Spirit helps me (as an individual Christian) to understand things.
In addition to the above reply I should point out that theological thinking combines scripture, tradition, experience and reason in order to try and translate God to those modern dilemas such as What does God say about Stem cell research?. It is essential for this to be the case, because theology shouldn’t just give us a political stance but also a way to live out our faiths. For example, I knew some one who lived out the Church’s teachings but did not believe them… therefore was she being faithful? Obedience is a virtue, yes. But does obedience save like faith does, if you’re doing something you don’t believe? You need to be able to apply scripture and Church teaching or you can’t formulate the response to it… but you need to give each ‘theological source’ (ie. scripture, tradition, experience and reason) a sufficient airing in order to ever be transformed by such faith.
 
Hi, Hisalone,

You made a statement that just jumped out at me … 😃

This is why many say that what the RCC is now does not look anything like the 1st century church.

Every living system goes through a process of growth and devleopment. The externals that you have focused on from the 1st Century (chariots, togas, scrolls, and no cell phones…) are obviously misleading. The character of the Catholic Church lies in its doctrine … and right from the 1st Century we have the teachings Christ gave the Apostles and that the Apostles passed on to their direct spiritual descendents - the Catholic Bishops! Let’s take a quick look at just three:

1.) Christ told us that Baptism is necessary - and, sure enough, the CC baptizes with water!

2.) Christ told us that unless we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood we have no life in us - and sure enough, the CC ordains priests who act in the Person of Christ and consecrate common bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

3.) Christ gave the Power of God to forgive men’s sins to the Apostles - and sure enough, the CC ordains priests who act in the Person of Christ and forgives mens sins - or holds them fast.

What makes this of interest is that while all of this can be traced back to the 1st Century, we find these three items voided out in the 16th Century. In my opinion, the real concern is for the groups that thought that voiding out the Gospel of Christ and the Church He established on Peter would improve on the Work of God.

What I would suggest is that you simply re-read your Bible and note the parts that your religion has more, “…honored in the breech rather then the observance…” I think that would be a fruitful area for genuine concern.

God bless

Tom
 
Hi, PRmerger,

Excellent! … 😃 👍

Keep up he good work!

God bless

Tom
You say you’re not going against SS, Doki, but if you believe this:

***yet can’t find a Scripture verse which says ***“The Bible interprets itself”, then you are not following Sola Scriptura.
 
I’d be happy to use any number–5? 5,000? 10,000?–if you will provide me with YOUR source, FG.
Otherwise, my number, 40,000 is as good as yours without any statistics to back it up.
.

Hmmmm. I did provide the source. It’s listed in my post. If it’s good enough for Tim Staples and Steve Ray, it must surely meet the standards of Catholic Answers. Yes?

Surely, you aren’t implying that you don’t know who Tim Staples and Steve Ray are? No, I didn’t think so.

I also told you that I’m trained in debate. You have been using a tactic that is designed to keep you in control of the conversation. Instead of facing the fact, that your very first claim was wrong, you decide it’s not important any more and start demanding more things. It’s called the bait and switch. Accomplished debaters do not let themselves become the subject of baiting. We also don’t call the faith of other people “'obscene”. That’s an ad hominem attack.

I think instead of trying to run the debate here, you might want to take yourself to the public library and check out that source for yourself. I’m sure you can explain how Catholics who are ONE and completely united are really 242 according to the sources quoted by Steve Ray and Tim Staples.

So, I answered your first inquiry, you didn’t like it. That will be the result of anything I produce. You’ll haggle, split hairs and then resort to name calling. No thank you. People who love the Lord stand up for what they believe in a dignified way. They are charitable, resist circular reasoning, apply consistent standards and always seek truth.

I’ll repeat one more time. I have no need to proselytize to Catholics because I don’t think you need to be rescued from anything. While I may disagree with some of your doctrine, I don’t think you are in danger of hell as long as you truly love Jesus.

I wish you peace.
 
I disagree on your approach to this. I don’t think any church has ‘authority’ other than being hearers and doers of the word. God has true authority, surely? I can’t say that either myself or the anglican church is anti-contraception, though… which means you probably do consider us to have ‘caved on the issue’. I truly long for more young people to wait until married before having sex; but we need to wake up and smell the coffee… that isn’t happening. Therefore, is it really ethical to say contraceptives are wrong; when you know it won’t necessarily put people off having pre-marital sex? More over is it ethical to allow these people to be exposed to life threatening STDs? I can’t answer for God. I don’t know whether contraception is right or wrong; but in my heart I can not see how we could possibly justify being anti-contraception. Anti-abortion, yes. Anti-contraception, no. Irresponsible sexual practice shatters lives; contraceptives can be a safety net. They prevent life threatening diseases; unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

I just have to point out that this argument is the same as saying “I wish people would shoot each other, but since they do anyway, we should hand out bullet-proof vests in the inner cities to prevent Gun Crime.” Just an observation
.

Hmmmm. I did provide the source. It’s listed in my post. If it’s good enough for Tim Staples and Steve Ray, it must surely meet the standards of Catholic Answers. Yes?

Surely, you aren’t implying that you don’t know who Tim Staples and Steve Ray are? No, I didn’t think so.

I also told you that I’m trained in debate. You have been using a tactic that is designed to keep you in control of the conversation. Instead of facing the fact, that your very first claim was wrong, you decide it’s not important any more and start demanding more things. It’s called the bait and switch. Accomplished debaters do not let themselves become the subject of baiting. We also don’t call the faith of other people “'obscene”. That’s an ad hominem attack.

I think instead of trying to run the debate here, you might want to take yourself to the public library and check out that source for yourself. I’m sure you can explain how Catholics who are ONE and completely united are really 242 according to the sources quoted by Steve Ray and Tim Staples.

So, I answered your first inquiry, you didn’t like it. That will be the result of anything I produce. You’ll haggle, split hairs and then resort to name calling. No thank you. People who love the Lord stand up for what they believe in a dignified way. They are charitable, resist circular reasoning, apply consistent standards and always seek truth.

I’ll repeat one more time. I have no need to proselytize to Catholics because I don’t think you need to be rescued from anything. While I may disagree with some of your doctrine, I don’t think you are in danger of hell as long as you truly love Jesus.

I wish you peace.
For the record, I doubt that is what PR was trying to do. The point she is trying to make is that SS leads to all men relying on their own interpretation as being correct, which invariably leads to people doing whatever they please. The Catholic Church is truly universal, as there can be (and are) many different Rites within her while remaining one, consistent, whole.

Her statement:
I’d be happy to use any number–5? 5,000? 10,000?–if you will provide me with YOUR source, FG.
Otherwise, my number, 40,000 is as good as yours without any statistics to back it up.
seems to me to be more along the lines of, no matter how you break them up there are still WAY more Protestant denominations than Catholic denominations.

To be honest, I dislike that argument because of exactly what you posted. The “denomination” cut-off points are arbitrary and completely subjective. A Catholic could look at all the different Rites and say “See, we are one” while looking at the different Anglican Rites and say “See, look how many types there are”. Just an all around bad argument IMHO.

And, FTR, I agree with your last statement. My desire in theological discussions is to bring people back to the one true faith of Christ, to minimize time in Purgatory and the inherent risk of rejecting anything taught by Christ.

Just my $.02

FSC
 
I just have to point out that this argument is the same as saying “I wish people would shoot each other, but since they do anyway, we should hand out bullet-proof vests in the inner cities to prevent Gun Crime.” Just an observation
Before I begin, I hope the above was a typing error… I certainly do not wish people “would shoot each other”

Anyway I don’t believe it is like saying this. Firstly, sexual activity is rightly or wrongly a norm in modern day culture; as much as I would desire to see more young people waiting till marriage before being ‘sexually active’, I recognise that it is seen as almost abnormal not to. But you have made my statement much more sensationalist by comparing to something which is still socially condemned on the whole. As far as moral, religious, and social beliefs go, sexual practice is up for debate. Different groups of people believe different things. Many religions endorse abstinance, some desire arranged marriage, and others believe that the body is something to be enjoyed and used as an expression of love. Here in the UK sexual practice or abstinance from is a right for every adult. [Morality is a personal issue that arises from such freedom] However the law and society on the whole (speaking from my own British context) does not consider guncrime to be an appropriate way to express anything. It is NOT accepted and it is ILLEGAL and this makes a great differnece as to what action you take. But hey, if someone can fund bullet-proof vests for the entire UK population, I’d gladly take one.
 
Before I begin, I hope the above was a typing error… I certainly do not wish people “would shoot each other”

Anyway I don’t believe it is like saying this. Firstly, sexual activity is rightly or wrongly a norm in modern day culture; as much as I would desire to see more young people waiting till marriage before being ‘sexually active’, I recognise that it is seen as almost abnormal not to. But you have made my statement much more sensationalist by comparing to something which is still socially condemned on the whole. As far as moral, religious, and social beliefs go, sexual practice is up for debate. Different groups of people believe different things. Many religions endorse abstinance, some desire arranged marriage, and others believe that the body is something to be enjoyed and used as an expression of love. Here in the UK sexual practice or abstinance from is a right for every adult. [Morality is a personal issue that arises from such freedom] However the law and society on the whole (speaking from my own British context) does not consider guncrime to be an appropriate way to express anything. It is NOT accepted and it is ILLEGAL and this makes a great differnece as to what action you take. But hey, if someone can fund bullet-proof vests for the entire UK population, I’d gladly take one.
Absolutely was a typing error. It should have read “wouldnt”.

OK, here goes. The question was not what is a “norm” in society, it was about what is objectively moral. Saying that we should provide contraception is the same as saying we should provide bulletproof vests: both are “protection” against immoral acts. For one you are protecting against the consequences of your own immoral behavior, for the other you are defending against the immoral behavior of someone else. Either way, both protect against immorality. The legality of a thing does not matter. There is an ocean of difference between freedom and license. We have the freedom to do anything under the sun, but we do not have the license. To advocate for such things as free contraception, condom handouts in schools, free ABC Pills, etc, is to advocate for a type of licentiousness which leads to the death of the soul.

The argument of whether to contracept within marriage is a completely different issue, albeit still a morality issue.

The reason that so many people look to ABC as the cause for increased abortion, promiscuity, social evils and various other things is because the “sexual revolution” began with ABC (I know I know, not a primary cause, but that is the impression). That was not the root cause, IMHO, but it was a major contributing factor. Bishop Fulton Sheen said that one of the causes for todays social degradation was the increasingly mechanical view of individuals. We have become individuals, parts in a machine, instead of people, human beings belonging to God. When you view PEOPLE as merely parts in a machine (society, employees, neighborhoods, anything) you devalue them to the point where they are worth less than any of your own desires.

The reason so many people have sex outside of wedlock today, again IMHO, is a selfish desire to fulfill their own wants in an incredibly hedonistic culture. The point is not to increase your loved one in Holiness, Joy, and Love any longer, but to “get off”. Sex was created to be a unifying act requiring three people: The husband, wife, and God. Instead of that many people (especially men) make sex about one person, themselves. This is why they require contraception: They do no love their partner, they have put God out of the equation, and because of these two they need to “Protect” themselves…

Anyway, I gotta get to work.

FSC
 
.Hmmmm. I did provide the source. It’s listed in my post. If it’s good enough for Tim Staples and Steve Ray, it must surely meet the standards of Catholic Answers. Yes?
No. I’d like the source so I can see how it was derived, FG. Saying TS or SR mention it is good, but is akin to using hearsay.

So please tell me how many Christian denominations YOU believe there are, and cite your source, and I will consider the source and perhaps use your statistic. 🤷

[sign]Right now, since you don’t have any more valid source than I do, I’m going to continue to use 40,000.
[/sign]
We also don’t call the faith of other people “'obscene”. That’s an ad hominem attack.
Oh, absolutely I find it obscene that there are 40,000 different Christian belief systems, each one claiming that the Holy Spirit inspired them to their departure from Apostolic teaching.

[sign1]It’s obscene.[/sign1]

Still waiting for the Scripture verses that tell Christians what’s an essential belief and what’s not! 😃 (Maybe 4th time asking is a winner??)
 
An interesting question which none of us can answer, yet.
Yes, you are correct, if by “us” you mean those not in communion with the CC.

This clearly depicts the confusion and chaos that evolves from departing from Apostolic authority. When one says “God is the my authority” yet does not submit to the authority of His Body, the Church, one is indeed left with this paradigm: “it’s an interesting question which none of us can answer”.
 
For the record, I doubt that is what PR was trying to do. The point she is trying to make is that SS leads to all men relying on their own interpretation as being correct, which invariably leads to people doing whatever they please.
Yes, thank you FSC. I just have one caveat: my point is not that SS leads to all men relying on their own interpretation as being correct, but that the paradigm, “The Holy Spirit will lead me to a correct understanding of Scripture” has led to the obscene number of Christian denominations–40,000 (or whatever number ForeverGrace wants me to use, provided she give me a source that’s not hearsay.) 👍
 
Originally Posted by PRmerger
Clearly God has true authority. God is sovereign. No Christian here will contest you on that.
The question is, how do we know what God says?
For example, what does God say about embryonic stem cell research, Rita?
How do you know what God says? Read His word.
Listen to the still quite voice.
 
Gee His, what if that ‘still quiet voice’ is the voice of a “Spirit” other than the Holy Spirit? I mean, Scripture tells us that the Devil can quote Scripture. . .

Or what if that ‘still quiet voice’ tells YOU something but tells ME something else?

Which of us can ‘know’ that the ‘still quiet voice’ is the Holy Spirit? Remember, the Spirit cannot contradict Himself, so if the "still quiet voice’ is saying two completely opposite things, both sayings cannot be from the SAME Spirit.

And if you want to cavil and tell me as a Catholic I’m automatically not hearing the right Spirit, what of you and a fellow Protestant who hear completely opposite teachings?

What of the Baptist who insists the Spirit says “only adults may be baptized” and the Presbyterian who hears the Spirit say, “Infants may be baptized?”

They cannot both be correct. Which has the “real Spirit”, Hisalone?
 
Gee His, what if that ‘still quiet voice’ is the voice of a “Spirit” other than the Holy Spirit? I mean, Scripture tells us that the Devil can quote Scripture. . .

Or what if that ‘still quiet voice’ tells YOU something but tells ME something else?

Which of us can ‘know’ that the ‘still quiet voice’ is the Holy Spirit? Remember, the Spirit cannot contradict Himself, so if the "still quiet voice’ is saying two completely opposite things, both sayings cannot be from the SAME Spirit.

And if you want to cavil and tell me as a Catholic I’m automatically not hearing the right Spirit, what of you and a fellow Protestant who hear completely opposite teachings?

What of the Baptist who insists the Spirit says “only adults may be baptized” and the Presbyterian who hears the Spirit say, “Infants may be baptized?”

They cannot both be correct. Which has the “real Spirit”, Hisalone?
The example of stem cell research.
Scripture says that God knew us before we were formed in our mothers womb.

There will always be honest differences of opinion what I object to and which is clearly anti-scriptural is that everyone should not be trained in scripture and that believers should not be trained to hear Gods voice.
 
The example of stem cell research.
Just to clarify: we’re talking about embryonic stem cell research. Not just any stem cell research. (Like the difference between acid rain and just plain rain. We don’t like acid rain. We DO like rain! :D)

Clearly God is opposed to embryonic stem cell research. We know not because Scripture says anything about it, but because His Body, the CC, has spoken on this issue.
There will always be honest differences of opinion what I object to and which is clearly anti-scriptural is that everyone should not be trained in scripture and that believers should not be trained to hear Gods voice.
When you talk about “honest differences of opinion” what you’re talking about is the Protestant confusion and chaos on matters of Truth and life.
 
The example of stem cell research.
Scripture says that God knew us before we were formed in our mothers womb.

There will always be honest differences of opinion what I object to and which is clearly anti-scriptural is that everyone should not be trained in scripture and that believers should not be trained to hear Gods voice.
But no matter how ‘honest’, the fact remains, His, that the example I gave is one that shows quite clearly that two different Protestant faiths teach two absolutely different things regarding baptism (which both believe salvific.)

One MUST be wrong and one MUST be right. . .but both claim the Holy Spirit.

Which is right?

You must be able to give an answer, otherwise there is no way that you can argue that to ‘know’ truth, all one need do is listen for the ‘quiet little voice’. Because these two different faith groups each claim to have done so, and have come up with absolute opposite teachings.

So, which is right, and why?
 
And if you want to cavil and** tell me as a Catholic I’m automatically not hearing the right Spirit,** what of you and a fellow Protestant who hear completely opposite teachings?

What of the Baptist who insists the Spirit says “only adults may be baptized” and the Presbyterian who hears the Spirit say, “Infants may be baptized?”

They cannot both be correct. Which has the “real Spirit”, Hisalone?
'zactly, Tantum, exactly!

Regarding the bolded portion: the paradigm that Hisalone subscribes to is that anyone can read the Scriptures and come to a correct understanding. Thus, if he says that Catholics are incorrectly interpreting a Scripture verse he’s negating his own claim. 🤷
 
Just to clarify: we’re talking about embryonic stem cell research. Not just any stem cell research. (Like the difference between acid rain and just plain rain. We don’t like acid rain. We DO like rain! :D)

Clearly God is opposed to embryonic stem cell research. We know not because Scripture says anything about it, but because His Body, the CC, has spoken on this issue.

When you talk about “honest differences of opinion” what you’re talking about is the Protestant confusion and chaos on matters of Truth and life.
As I pointed out scripture is not silent on embryonic stem cell research.

The confusion is in you. You fail to understand the church of God.
 
But no matter how ‘honest’, the fact remains, His, that the example I gave is one that shows quite clearly that two different Protestant faiths teach two absolutely different things regarding baptism (which both believe salvific.)

One MUST be wrong and one MUST be right. . .but both claim the Holy Spirit.

Which is right?

You must be able to give an answer, otherwise there is no way that you can argue that to ‘know’ truth, all one need do is listen for the ‘quiet little voice’. Because these two different faith groups each claim to have done so, and have come up with absolute opposite teachings.

So, which is right, and why?
Jesus would not be drawn into questions which do not address the issue, He would refuse to give direct answers to questions which were stated in such a way that the truth could not be revealed by giving a direct answer. Your questions are such. The Catholic paradigm is so far off it resembles that of the the OT scribes and pharasees that Jesus faced.
If you knew the right questions to ask we could have a discussion.
 
'zactly, Tantum, exactly!

Regarding the bolded portion: the paradigm that Hisalone subscribes to is that anyone can read the Scriptures and come to a correct understanding. Thus, if he says that Catholics are incorrectly interpreting a Scripture verse he’s negating his own claim. 🤷
That may be your understanding but that is not what I said.
 
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