A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[wmscott]

William, could you name one belief you or the CC have changed their minds about after study and discussion with non-catholic Christians?

I’ve changed some of my understanding after speaking to catholics. I remember a precious nun who helped me see miracles done by Jesus for what they were, miracles, not naturally occuring happenings.

Can we agree that cherry pickers should not throw cherry pits.

Dokimas you made the subtle suggestion, and I quote “could you name one belief you or the CC have changed their minds about after study and discussion with non-catholic Christians”? To me this means that you know the answer, so I am calling you out on this.

Tell me what belief is it that came from non-Catholic theology that the CC has had to change their minds on? I am all ears and eyes. Please provide documented sources please, because I do not know the answer to the question. Or is this just a red herring and another attempt to dodge the issue and stand corrected in the light of the truth. Because I have to tell you, those who cannot stand up to the light of truth and scrutiny tend to hide and decieve.

Also let me ask you a “YES” or “NO” question… did you read in its entirety the documented explanation on 1 Timothy 4 that I provided to you.

I ask because after providing it to you, even now you still persist in the false assumptions on marriage and fasting. What’s up are you doing the Groundhog Day thing :whacky: Repeating it long enough and often enough is not going to make it true.

 

[wmscott]

I’m really genuinely confused. If I were to try to learn about the tenets of your religion, and you were willing to tell me about the rules, tenets, etc. of your faith, and I did not become a Catholic, I am putting you in spiritual peril? Really?

Please do not misunderstand, I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I’m really floored by this…

As to MY logic…

I think there is SOMETHING out there, but I do not know what IT is, I am not an atheist, I hold out hope that there’s some defining force that we humans cannot understand.

However, while I was REALLY into religion in a big way when I was a teen/young adult…I kept coming back to feeling and thinking that organized religion made no sense to me…and to this day, well, I search, and try to make sense of what I blindly believed at one time, and found great comfort in it, to be blunt…and now…well, I cannot.

So, I hope to goodness I am not deceiving anyone. This is not my intent. I am searching…may be searching until the day I die

I’ve read books by different authors, with different points of view, from Christopher Hitchens to Dinesh D’Souza to Joseph Campbell. I’m struggling through Jesus: Interrupted at the moment. (it’s a bit of a dry read).

I actually found this forum when I was at work trying to kill time between patient rounds, to be honest, and I figured this would be a pretty neat BB to join.

I have subscribed to a handful of BB’s and groups, all with differing interests. As you see, I spend WAY too much time online. Comcast loves me…but, then again, perhaps not.

I am sorry that I have confused you, please let me try and clarify. I stated the following “Therefore, one of my questions is and what concerns me is that once you are here and learn what Catholics and the Catholic Church teaches and believes about leaving the Catholic Church once you have accepted the fullness of truth and then decides to turn your back on it. And knowing full well that a Catholic is placing themselves in great peril of sin”.

What I am saying is that a Catholic who has lived the fullness of truth of the Catholic faith, and a Catholic who is thinking about abandoning the Catholic faith because of some crisis or other issue, after knowing the fullness of truth, is placing themselves in great peril of sin. Then another Christian (non-Catholic) who fully knows and understands this about Catholics, knowing that this person is spiritually weak, tries to prostulize them and lead them away from their faith instead of challenging them to learn more about their faith, take what is causing them to be in crisis and research what the Church teaches and find way to reconcile, heal, and grow stronger in the Catholic faith. I mean after all we are all Christians, are we not?

The issue I have is with the ones who are willing to lead another Christian in to sin because of their belief that the CC is “Bad” and that their faith is “Superior”. I hope this clears this up a little. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

Also let me ask you a “YES” or “NO” question… did you read in its entirety the documented explanation on 1 Timothy 4 that I provided to you.

I ask because after providing it to you, even now you still persist in the false assumptions on marriage and fasting. What’s up are you doing the Groundhog Day thing :whacky: Repeating it long enough and often enough is not going to make it true.

It’s true, he just can’t let go of that false teaching he has absorbed. I think it might have profound spiritual implications if he had to admit tht his prejudices toward the Catholic faith are unfounded, and that his way of perceiving things might be in error.

Maybe he is a frustrated Cardinal wannabe?

 

[guanophore]

The issue I have is with the ones who are willing to lead another Christian in to sin because of their belief that the CC is “Bad” and that their faith is “Superior”. I hope this clears this up a little. Peace.

From their point of view, they are leading a person weak in faith AWAY from sin, and TOWARD Christ. Most evangelicals do not see the relationship with the Church as essential, but only a relationship with Christ.

If they did not believe they had something superior to offer, they would not be evangelizing Catholics, would they?

 

[wmscott]

From their point of view, they are leading a person weak in faith AWAY from sin, and TOWARD Christ. Most evangelicals do not see the relationship with the Church as essential, but only a relationship with Christ.

If they did not believe they had something superior to offer, they would not be evangelizing Catholics, would they?

I guess being a Catholic longer than my Southern Baptist days I forget the old mind set. One of my greatest sins is in persecuting the Church. Thank the Lord for Confession and forgiveness. Now it is basking in the glory of Christ’s Church and the beautiful Catholic faith, that may have something to do with my hazy memory, that or old age.

But now I can’t think of wanting to be anything but Catholic. The Most Holy Eucharist far surpasses anything that any non-Catholic denominations/churches can offer.

 

[wmscott]

It’s true, he just can’t let go of that false teaching he has absorbed. I think it might have profound spiritual implications if he had to admit tht his prejudices toward the Catholic faith are unfounded, and that his way of perceiving things might be in error.

Maybe he is a frustrated Cardinal wannabe?

What do you want to bet that Dokimas never read what was provided to him. As they say… the truth may shake one to their foundation and only come to find out it is made of sand.

Sad how they keep clinging to straws.

 

[benidict]

I guess being a Catholic longer than my Southern Baptist days I forget the old mind set. One of my greatest sins is in persecuting the Church. Thank the Lord for Confession and forgiveness. Now it is basking in the glory of Christ’s Church and the beautiful Catholic faith, that may have something to do with my hazy memory, that or old age.

But now I can’t think of wanting to be anything but Catholic. The Most Holy Eucharist far surpasses anything that any non-Catholic denominations/churches can offer.

yes! if all they can offer is the Jesus is my boyfriend music, and a tony robbins type sermon, im not sold either. give me the Eucharist, and the solemnity and beauty of the Catholic Church also! peace

 

[benidict]

I found a letter in today’s NY News of particular interest - and I have considerable sympathy for it. Here’s what it says - it is short.

“Manhattan, Muslims say non-Muslims are infidels, Jews claim to be God’s chosen people. Christians say that if you don’t accept Jesus Christ, you don’t get into heaven. It seems to me that they are three sides to the same coin. If you’re not one of us, God doesn’t like you - at least not as much as He likes us.”

Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, whether sugar-coated or unsweetened. I believe God certainly is wise and kind and merciful and big enough to look beyond narrow doctrines and look at our hearts. If we love Him (by whatever name we call him) and if we do our best to love and serve humankind, then we're on his team whatever label we have. The notion that only one religion alone is fully true and all the rest are wrong, or significantly inferior to ours in God's eyes, is (in my opinion) an insult to God's benevolence and charity

 So, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Muslims etc - let's rejoice in our love of God and love one another and cut out the arrogant 'our faith is superior to all others' nonsense. God will divide the sheep from the goats in eternity and heaven will be filled with people of different religions, colors, tongues, cultures, nations, etc.

 Let's make religion a bridge and not a barrier. The world needs compassion, tolerance, and understanding rather than indictment, bickering, accusation and 'how many angels can dance on the point of a pin'. Look at the trouble religion continues to create in the world, even today, when Christ calls us to join together as his children whatever our faith. He must weep when he sees people preach exclusiveness and prejudice and "only Catholics (or Protestants or Orthodox or Muslims) are right' in his name. If there is such a thing as heresy, I suspect that religious zealots who claim they alone have the fully truth are chief among them.

i would suggest that the person who wrote that letter, become a unitarian, universalist. they would fit in very nicely. as far as being a zealot, they sound like they are a zealot for their beliefs… and arrogant. the only way this go along to get along thing works, is if nobody is allowed an opinon. after all, we wouldnt want to offend. i think this “everybody is the same” idea has been tried also. soviet union, china, north korea, cuba…never seems to work out to well. peace

 

[Dokimas]

If he believed what you assert, why did he tell the woman at the well that the man she was currently having sex with “is not your husband”?

Because she had not bothered getting married a sixth time and was just living with this one (I persume they were living together)

John 4:
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, "You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’
18 “for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t think Doki believes it is possible to be sure of the Truth this side of eternity. I think he believes we all know only in part, and that it is not possible for us to fully embrace the Truth that has been revealed by the HS in this life. He has stated repeatedly that every human can be wrong, and he does not believe that the CC has been preserved from error by the HS.

So, if the Church can err, then anyone in agreement with her doctrines can also be in error, and therefore, cannot be “on par” with truth.

I may be wrong, but I am not sure he believes we are partakers of the divine nature, either. I just read some posts where he seemed to think that Catholics are arrogant and presumptious for claiming to have produced the Bible.

The following verses answer what I believe the Bible teaches on some of your questions about me.

1 Corinthians 13:
9 For **we know in part **and we prophesy in part.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Corintians 8:
1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.

2Pe 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[Dokimas]

D re-read my original post.

Unless you think the celibacy issue is a reason to proselytize Catholics what does it have to do with a thread titled

---

A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics***



Since you don’t believe it is, what is the point of this topic in this thread? Open a thread on it in the Apologetics forum or, better yet, search the threads for previous discussions on it.

BTW I am still lost as to whether you are trying to decieve me into the same trap you pulled on CM. I guess it is possible that you honsetly do not understand what I am saying but, well, your honesty isn’t exactly beyond repute.

God bless you

I have not seen much seeking forgiveness on these threads. I asked for forgiveness for the one time I was aware of purposely saying something the way others speak to me. I was looking for the response. I got attacked. (Which is not big deal; just thought I tell you the facts.) I don’t see you or other attack fellows that do wrong to non-fellows. A bit of a double standard.

You can hold it against me for honestly asking forgiveness. That’s up to you. Seeing you are not God, I’ll loose no sleep over it.

 

[Dokimas]

If this were the case, then you would be right. However, since it is a theological impossiblity to “forbid marriage”, it is not an accurate assertion.

it is also incorrect to believe that “church leaders” are all ordained, because they are not, and there are many who are ordained that are not “church leaders”. Some ordained persons serve in cloistered communities, or are members of contempletive orders. It is a mistake to confuse Holy Orders with church leadership.

While the Latin Rite prefers to call upon those with the gifft of celibacy to serve as Pastors, this in no way “forbids marriage”, as you continuously erroneously assert. I am puzzled why you wish to cling to this untruth.

It is about you asserting falsehoods. You have stated that the CC has erred in “forbidding marriage”. It is a false assertion.

No, certainly not! The fact that the Latin Rite needs the gift of celibacy in this day and age does not mean that married leaders are unacceptable.

In fact, you seem to be confusing the gift of the priesthood with church leadership, which is a mistake.

Most of those who enter seminary,a nd determine that they are not called to celibacy do become strong leaders in their parishes.

**

You are attacking a straw man of your own concoction. It may be that you don’t understand leadership in the American Latin Rite parish? Leadership is not synonomous with ordination.

Some ordained priests are sent away for years to study, or for spiritual formation. some are never placed in leadership positions.**

Let me repeat myself because you keep repeating yourself: a rose is a rose no matter what it’s called.

 

[Dokimas]

Well, it is not that rose, Doki, so naming it one is erroneous. One who voluntarily announced marriage has received the gift of celibacy. This is NOT the prohibition of marriage!

When a person takes vows to God, then abandons them, the quality of their spirituality falls into question. This is no different than a priest who takes a vow of celibacy then chooses to act out sexually with a child, another man, or a woman. It is the violation of the vow that is problematic.

when Paul writes about younger women becoming “wanton”, he means that their sexual urges have more value than their vow to God. He says not to enroll them because they will forsake their vows.

Now the CC still enrolls young (marriagable age) women, but great care is taken in their formation so that they will not later succumb to forsaking their vows to give in to the lusts of the flesh.

Again, in the example above, the church does not “forbid” one who does want to forsake their vows. The Church just does not want to hold up such a one as an example to the community. It is no different than taking a marriage vow, then later, deciding you are tired of it and leaving the marriage.

This an excellent point, which is also part of the basis for your error. You are confusing doctrine with discipline and practice.

The doctrine of the Church is that marriage is a calling, and celibacy is a calling. Both are valued and affirmed.

The Latin Rite prefers to choose from among those called to celibacy to serve as priests.
Some of those received as priests are married. This does not represent any disunity of doctrine. Those who are defiant about how the unity of the faith is applied do, indeed, find themselves in disunity.

Call it what you will, it’s still forbidding a man who wants to be a priest to marry if he becomes a priest. It’s a rose after all.

 

[Dokimas]

Have you considered what the implications might be for you to let go of this false idea? How would it affect your faith? Your attitude toward the Catholic faith?

Have you considered what your motives might be for coming to a Catholic forum, trying to convince Catholics of something we know to be false?

I would not change my faith. I have no attitude toward the CC and it’s faith. It’s not my ‘faith’ (although we have much in common as far as eccentials.)

The best I know my motives they are fine. I have not gone to any part of this forum except the one that fits me: non-catholic.

If you notice my comments come after someone makes a statement that I think is wrong Biblically

 

[Dokimas]

We are on a thread about why Protestants feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics. I keep trying to relate the content of your posts to the thread topic.

Using your logic then I must question why you are on this part of CAF; it’s about non-catholic religions. You are a catholic on this part of the forum. Now maybe you can see why I can comment on a thread that the original post does not pertain to me.

 

[Dokimas]

Only in your imagination, Doki. that is why,w hen you try calling daisies roses here, it is not getting us to believe they are roses.

The Catholic Church does not forbid marraige, mandate celibacy, or forbid foods. You continued assertions that they do so have no merit.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Call it what you will, it’s still forbidding a man who wants to be a priest to marry if he becomes a priest. It’s a rose after all.

No, it is a nasty skunk cabbage, Doki.
.

Are you FORBIDDEN to marry if you have CHOSEN to remain single?

Think about it.

If you have two choices, A and B, in choosing A are you forbidden from choosing B? Heck no. You have two choices. When you pick one, if the two choices are opposing, you are not ‘forbidden’ from choosing the other, you have freely chosen one OVER another.

I have two choices in life–I can marry or I can remain single.

If I marry, I was not FORBIDDEN THE CHOICE TO BE SINGLE. I CHOSE to marry.

If I remain single, I was not FORBIDDEN TO MARRY. I CHOSE to remain single.

How HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND???

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas you made the subtle suggestion, and I quote “could you name one belief you or the CC have changed their minds about after study and discussion with non-catholic Christians”? To me this means that you know the answer, so I am calling you out on this.

You’re calling me out about what? If you mean I asked a retorical question (of course you’ve never changed your mind because you are 100% correct doctinally.) then I’m guilty. My point was that you want me to produce evidence I’ve changed my mind after coming here or I’m here under false pretences. Correct?

Tell me what belief is it that came from non-Catholic theology that the CC has had to change their minds on? I am all ears and eyes. Please provide documented sources please, because I do not know the answer to the question.

Sure you do. I mention them from time to time. For example; priest not being allowed to get married and remain a priest, the perpetual virginity of Mary, transubstanciation, the doctrinal perfection of the CC. BTW, these are things that are discussed here so I made my comments.

Also let me ask you a “YES” or “NO” question… did you read in its entirety the documented explanation on 1 Timothy 4 that I provided to you.

Probably not. I don’t get too far in reading sometimes when I run into things I don’t agree with.

I ask because after providing it to you, even now you still persist in the false assumptions on marriage and fasting. What’s up are you doing the Groundhog Day thing :whacky: Repeating it long enough and often enough is not going to make it true.

I’ve read enough to believe that the answers don’t answer my concerns.

 

[Dokimas]

It’s true, he just can’t let go of that false teaching he has absorbed. I think it might have profound spiritual implications if he had to admit tht his prejudices toward the Catholic faith are unfounded, and that his way of perceiving things might be in error.

Maybe he is a frustrated Cardinal wannabe?

Do comments like this show your real colors (no pun intended)?

This is what I meant in a response I had to someone that said all I say no is to be questioned because I said I was sorry or purposely using ones own unkind tactic on that very person. I challenged those you want to hold that against me to take people like you to task for their unkind remarks. I have seen past this post so I don’t know if any of your fellows have instructed you on your unkindness. I doubt it, so call me doubting Doki.

 

[Dokimas]

yes! if all they can offer is the Jesus is my boyfriend music, and a tony robbins type sermon, im not sold either. give me the Eucharist, and the solemnity and beauty of the Catholic Church also! peace

Wondering if you realize how ignorant this accusation is for many non-catholic churches?

You guys remind me of a shark frenzy.

I doubt is any of your fellows will take you task for such a foolish statement.