A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[guanophore]

In the sense of Psalm 23, all who are shepherd by Jesus ‘do not want’. So you are correct if that’s what you mean. However, only the Head is not wanting in any sense, IMO.

I understand.

The deficient notion of “church” you have inherited has been fomenting for 500 years.

 

[Dokimas]

No, it is not. The difference is that the Catholic Church has one doctrine. It is, since the Apostolic times “ONE FAITH”. Those who depart from the TEachings do not dilute the faith for anyone but themselves. Their apostasy does not change the One Faith. It just means they are in rebellion against it.

Jesus did not set up a democracy. His Kingdom is a theocracy. The Pope cannot “step down” because of other people’s sins, or even his own. He was not placed in office because he is impeccable.

The difference is that there is no unity of doctrine among them. Well, I will not say “none” but they cannot claim to have “one faith”.

It the pope okayed by turning a ‘blind eye’ to the sins of others, he is quilty of that and your fellow catholics, who are held to a high standard by the CC should expect NOTHING less from its leaders or they should expect they would step down. This is not a democratic vote; an appling discipline fairly.​

ALL Christian church have foundational beliefs in common, including the CC. A protestant church that questions the resurrection of Jesus or thinks the Blood of Jesus is not important is excluded, IMO, for this discussion for they are NOT a Christian, non-catholic denomination.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Question, Doki –

Suppose you have a nice Methodist congregation. Of that congregation, about 20% engage in grave sin habitually by ignoring Christian teaching on a given subject (we’ll say that they are either engaging in adultery or fornication). Another 10% are engaged in grave sin through individual grave sins also igorning Christian teaching (some are thieves, some murderers, some abuse children or elders, some are rapists). Another 20% are ‘quiet’ but consistently reject at least one particular facet of their Methodist faith. (say they habitually play cards, drink, or dance). And of the remaining 50%, at least at one point in their lives they will sin gravely. Half will repent but half will not, and say that since it was only ‘once’ it doesn’t count.

That is 50% of the given congregation which is ‘defying’ its own teachings consistently, and pretty much 100% that defies its teachings at least once.

And this is a ‘typical’ Methodist congregation. All the other congregations are pretty much the same.

Now, Doki, would you say that the Methodist Church is in disarray because its members reject its teachings, some habitually, some now and then, and others just once?

No, right? The teachings of the Methodist Church remain its teachings even if its members reject the teachings.

So why are you complaining about the Catholics?

 

[Dokimas]

I understand.

The deficient notion of “church” you have inherited has been fomenting for 500 years.

I readily admit I’m deficient. Too bad others can’t see it in themselves or in their church. It’s human to be deficient. I thank God that the love of Jesus is far bigger than my deficiency and He accepts me in spite of them. Thanks be to God. This is the Gospel of Jesus meeting my needs.

 

[Dokimas]

Question, Doki –

Suppose you have a nice Methodist congregation. Of that congregation, about 20% engage in grave sin habitually by ignoring Christian teaching on a given subject (we’ll say that they are either engaging in adultery or fornication). Another 10% are engaged in grave sin through individual grave sins also igorning Christian teaching (some are thieves, some murderers, some abuse children or elders, some are rapists). Another 20% are ‘quiet’ but consistently reject at least one particular facet of their Methodist faith. (say they habitually play cards, drink, or dance). And of the remaining 50%, at least at one point in their lives they will sin gravely. Half will repent but half will not, and say that since it was only ‘once’ it doesn’t count.

That is 50% of the given congregation which is ‘defying’ its own teachings consistently, and pretty much 100% that defies its teachings at least once.

And this is a ‘typical’ Methodist congregation. All the other congregations are pretty much the same.

Now, Doki, would you say that the Methodist Church is in disarray because its members reject its teachings, some habitually, some now and then, and others just once?

No, right? The teachings of the Methodist Church remain its teachings even if its members reject the teachings.

So why are you complaining about the Catholics?

Matthew 18 tells us how to deal with sin in our churches. If the Methodist church is NOT dealing with sin issues among its members, it’s a church issue.​

I’m not complaining.​

I know of a church that allows gay couples to be in membership. I can’t in good conscience support that church in any way. It’s other ‘doctrines’ may be in line, but it’s practice is out of line with the teachings of the Bible.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Matthew 18 tells us how to deal with sin in our churches. If the Methodist church is NOT dealing with sin issues among its members, it’s a church issue.​

I’m not complaining.​

I know of a church that allows gay couples to be in membership. I can’t in good conscience support that church in any way. It’s other ‘doctrines’ may be in line, but it’s practice is out of line with the teachings of the Bible.

You’re dodging the issue. It isn’t a question of ‘dealing with the sin’ (and how is the pastor to know if there isn’t even confession? )

I’m saying that among any OTHER Church, there is a high percentage of those who sin against the teachings of their church, maybe only once, maybe a few times, maybe habitually.

Just like the "Catholics’ you noted who don’t obey their church teaching. . .some who only disobey a few times, others often.

IF you claim that the Catholics who disobey are tantamount to Catholicism having a ‘whole bunch of different beliefs’ then you have to say the very same thing about the Methodist Church, the Episcopal Church, the Baptist Church, etc. That they are not ‘one’ Church but composed of many separate Churches.

You aren’t doing that though. You’re only saying it about the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

It the pope okayed by turning a ‘blind eye’ to the sins of others, he is quilty of that and your fellow catholics,

It is always wrong to turn a blind eye toward sin. A person in a position of authority over those that are in sin has a greater responsibility to act on the behavior of those he shepherds.

What are you saying? You feel that Catholics must be evangelized because there are persons in the heirarchy that sin?

• who are held to a high standard by the CC should expect NOTHING less from its leaders or they should expect they would step down. This is not a democratic vote; an appling discipline fairly.

No, it is not appropriate to “quit” because you or someone else falls into sin. What is required is repentance, and restoration. Peter fell into sin by denying Christ. He tried to quit, and go back to fishing,because he was ashamed. However, Jesus did not allow this. He accepted Peter’s repentance, and restored him, reminding him of his duties.

-ALL Christian church have foundational beliefs in common,

On what basis do you make this claim?

-including the CC. A protestant church that questions the resurrection of Jesus or thinks the Blood of Jesus is not important is excluded, IMO, for this discussion for they are NOT a Christian, non-catholic denomination.

I am sure there are doctrines upon which most agree, the blood of Christ being one. However, there is much greater variety of doctrines found in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, primarily due to the heresy of Sola Scriptura.

And people being people, they will just 'QUIT" a community with which they don’t agree, and find another. Itching ears,looking for that which scratches the itch.

 

[PRmerger]

So the Bible is inspired but has error, but the CC is infallible and inspired. Hmm.

Do you believe that the mustard seed is the smallest seed in God’s kingdom?

It is a mild error in botany that’s written in Scripture.

The CC can make errors in botany, too.

 

[guanophore]

I readily admit I’m deficient. Too bad others can’t see it in themselves or in their church. It’s human to be deficient. I thank God that the love of Jesus is far bigger than my deficiency and He accepts me in spite of them. Thanks be to God. This is the Gospel of Jesus meeting my needs.

No, No Doki! It is not YOU that is deficient (any more than all of us entrapped within our veil of flesh). It is the concept of “church” that is deficient. I agree, it is human nature to fall short.

You are personalizing my point, possibly purposefully to avoid it. It is a deficient notion of Church that does not recognize the divine elements that make her infallible.

 

[Dokimas]

You’re dodging the issue. It isn’t a question of ‘dealing with the sin’ (and how is the pastor to know if there isn’t even confession? )

I’m saying that among any OTHER Church, there is a high percentage of those who sin against the teachings of their church, maybe only once, maybe a few times, maybe habitually.

Just like the "Catholics’ you noted who don’t obey their church teaching. . .some who only disobey a few times, others often.

IF you claim that the Catholics who disobey are tantamount to Catholicism having a ‘whole bunch of different beliefs’ then you have to say the very same thing about the Methodist Church, the Episcopal Church, the Baptist Church, etc. That they are not ‘one’ Church but composed of many separate Churches.

You aren’t doing that though. You’re only saying it about the Catholic Church.

After David commited adultery and had Urriah killed he said to God, ‘against you and you only have I sinned’. That maybe why Jesus told us to forgive as we are forgiven: to free us from holding something against others that they did to Jesus. Interesting and confusing.​

I’m saying it about ALL churches until we’re in Heaven. In spirit there is unity; in practice no so much.

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore in black; Doki in color

It is always wrong to turn a blind eye toward sin. A person in a position of authority over those that are in sin has a greater responsibility to act on the behavior of those he shepherds.

What are you saying? You feel that Catholics must be evangelized because there are persons in the heirarchy that sin? How are you coming up with this understanding of what I’ve said???

No, it is not appropriate to “quit” because you or someone else falls into sin. What is required is repentance, and restoration. Peter fell into sin by denying Christ. He tried to quit, and go back to fishing,because he was ashamed. ** I’m not sure you have the correct understanding of what happened when Peter went fishing**. However, Jesus did not allow this. Jesus gave Peter and his friends a huge amount of fish, but this time the net did not break. If Jesus didn’t want Peter to fish, He’d have broken the nets (like He did the first time the miracle happened.) ** He accepted Peter’s repentance, and restored him, reminding him of his duties. ** Where is it recorded that Peter repented for going fishing?

On what basis do you make this claim? Reality.

I am sure there are doctrines upon which most agree So you agree with me in spite of your last qustion to me. , the blood of Christ being one. However, there is much greater variety of doctrines found in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, So what, it’s not your church; it belongs to Jesus. Paul tells us there will be differences (Romans 14) ** primarily due to the heresy of Sola Scriptura. ** This is your opinion; as all opinions this could be correct or incorrect.

And people being people, they will just 'QUIT" a community with which they don’t agree, and find another. Itching ears,looking for that which scratches the itch.

 

[Dokimas]

Do you believe that the mustard seed is the smallest seed in God’s kingdom?

It is a mild error in botany that’s written in Scripture.

The CC can make errors in botany, too.

This is not an answer to my question.

My knowledge of what the verse actual says in the original is extremely limited to agree with your understanding of the verse.

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore in black

No, No Doki! It is not YOU that is deficient (any more than all of us entrapped within our veil of flesh). On the contrary, I am deficient. It is the concept of “church” that is deficient. I agree, it is human nature to fall short. ** I equate deficient and falling short. I’m sure all of us have deficient understanding of what the church is**.

You are personalizing my point **Not at all, I was not accusing you but making a personal observation of myself., **possibly purposefully to avoid it. Avoiding what? It is a deficient notion of Church that does not recognize the divine elements that make her infallible. So the Bible is fallible but the CC is not?

 

[PRmerger]

This is not an answer to my question.

My knowledge of what the verse actual says in the original is extremely limited to agree with your understanding of the verse.

You are proposing that since we say that the Bible is inspired but has error, then we ought to be saying that the CC also can have error, right?

 

[guanophore]

"Guanophore:

What are you saying? You feel that Catholics must be evangelized because there are persons in the heirarchy that sin?

How are you coming up with this understanding of what I’ve said???

The OP is asking why certain Protestants believe Catholics need to be evangelized. Your answer is that people who claim to be Catholics commit sins.

If Jesus didn't want Peter to fish, He'd have broken the nets (like He did the first time the miracle happened.)

He wanted him to be a fisher of men. He was making a point with the full nets.

** Where is it recorded that Peter repented for going fishing?**

do you think everything Peter said and did is written?

I think Scripture clearly states the opposite.

Are you trying to say that you don’t believe Peter had any remorse about denying Christ in his hour of suffering?

Reality.

So, in your “reality” all Christian Churches have foundational beliefs in common?

And those that don’t share your concept of the foundational beliefs are not considered Christian?

**So what, it's not your church; it belongs to Jesus.  Paul tells us there will be differences (Romans 14) **

No, the Church that belongs to Jesus is ONE.

Paul is not talking about doctrinal differences. Everyone is to have the same mind, and the same faith in the Church Jesus founded.

primarily due to the heresy of Sola Scriptura. ** This is your opinion; as all opinions this could be correct or incorrect.**

Actually, it is not. What constitutes heresy has nothing to do with my personal opinion. IT is a departure from the TEaching of the Apostles, which is what Sola Scriptura is.

I will also posit that pride, arrogance, and hurt feelings are also a major factor in the divisions of the Body.

 

[Dokimas]

You are proposing that since we say that the Bible is inspired but has error, then we ought to be saying that the CC also can have error, right?

Are you one of those that insists the Bible was given to us by the CC? If so, do you want to change your question?

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore in black
What are you saying? You feel that Catholics must be evangelized because there are persons in the heirarchy that sin?

The OP is asking why certain Protestants believe Catholics need to be evangelized. Your answer is that people who claim to be Catholics commit sins. ** Using your logic, you must think catholics must be evangelized because you are part of this thread**.

He wanted him to be a fisher of men. True. He was making a point with the full nets. Disagree. Remember Paul remained a tent maker after being called to be an apostle.

do you think everything Peter said and did is written? Are you serious?

I think Scripture clearly states the opposite. Of course.

Are you trying to say that you don’t believe Peter had any remorse about denying Christ in his hour of suffering? **Nope. ** Different story that the fish story. Peter had already experience the risen Jesus and His forgiveness.

So, in your “reality” all Christian Churches have foundational beliefs in common? Biblical reality.

And those that don’t share your concept of the foundational beliefs are not considered Christian? Can a person be a Christian and believe that Jesus is not God in the Flesh, did not die for sin, was not raised from the dead, and maybe He didn’t exist at all?

No, the Church that belongs to Jesus is ONE. Agreed; our understand of His church is different.

Paul is not talking about doctrinal differences. Everyone is to have the same mind, and the same faith in the Church Jesus founded. Whether or not the Gentiles should be circumcized is not doctrinal???

Actually, it is not. What constitutes heresy has nothing to do with my personal opinion. IT is a departure from the TEaching of the Apostles, which is what Sola Scriptura is. ** If this rises to herecy, would it be herecy to claim SS in incorrect if SS is correct?**

I will also posit that pride, arrogance, and hurt feelings are also a major factor in the divisions of the Body. Surely; also found throughout the CC and here on CAF among many of those who defend the CC against those who see ‘church’ differently.

 

[guanophore]

** Using your logic, you must think catholics must be evangelized because you are part of this thread**.

I do, but the question was not directed toward me. You are a Protestant, and you have posted on a thread asking you why you think Catholics need to be evangelized. You have stated that they sin. Is that your answer to the question?

Disagree. Remember Paul remained a tent maker after being called to be an apostle.

You think Jesus had them haul up 153 fish but was not trying to make a point?

do you think everything Peter said and did is written?  **Are you serious**?

You seem to believe that Peter did not repent of his abandoment of Christ, because it is not specifically written in Scripture. is this the case?

 **Nope.  ** **Different story that the fish story.  Peter had already experience the risen Jesus and His forgiveness.**

You suggested that the Pope should resign over the sins of the clergy under his authority. Jesus did not have Peter “quit” because he was less than faithful. He received his repentance and restored him. He instructed him to care for and feed the flock. He did not encourage Peter to abandon the ministry He called him to, but to return to it, and fulfill it.

Biblical reality.

This is basically the reality of the person reading it. There are as many different “realities” as there are belly buttons. Sometimes, people reach a common sense, and group themselves together. This is not how Jesus set things up.

  **Can a person be a Christian and believe that Jesus is not God in the Flesh, did not die for sin, was not raised from the dead, and maybe He didn't exist at all?**

I think not. Is this why you think Catholics need to be evangelized?

 **Agreed; our understand of His church is different.**

You are right, we do. Catholics receive the teaching of the Apostles on this point, so we see things differntly than our separated brethren, who have been apart from that tradition for 500 years.

  **Whether or not the Gentiles should be circumcized is not doctrinal???????**

No. There is no doctrinal requirement in Christianity that a person needs to be circumcised.

 **Surely; also found throughout the CC and here on CAF among many of those who defend the CC against those who see 'church' differently**.

Really? You think there are people on CAF that think these human shortcomings do not divide the unity in the Body?

 

[jwcarney95]

Just want to say a few things.

1. Thanks for this thread. It has helped to answer at least a few of my questions about Catholic practices and beliefs.
2. Though I am a Protestant, I am NOT here to proselytize, but to share and learn, and engage in fellowship. I’m glad this place exists.
3. I do have questions, but will ask them, not to create division, or mock, or to trap… but to truly get answers to gain better understanding.
4. I apologize for other protestants who come here with a spirit of condemnation, arrogance and a hard heart (spite). Which are sins in themselves.

The more I learn about my ancestors devotion to Christ and the Catholic church, the more curious I am.

 

[Nicea325]

Just want to say a few things.

1. Thanks for this thread. It has helped to answer at least a few of my questions about Catholic practices and beliefs.
2. Though I am a Protestant, I am NOT here to proselytize, but to share and learn, and engage in fellowship. I’m glad this place exists.
3. I do have questions, but will ask them, not to create division, or mock, or to trap… but to truly get answers to gain better understanding.
4. I apologize for other protestants who come here with a spirit of condemnation, arrogance and a hard heart (spite). Which are sins in themselves.

The more I learn about my ancestors devotion to Christ and the Catholic church, the more curious I am.

What a great attitude:thumbsup: I struggle sometimes with certain Protestant beliefs,but I too must share your heart and love.