A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[Dokimas]

First of all, Protestants should stop using the Bible, or at least the New Testament portion thereof. The Bible is a Catholic book, written be Catholics for Catholics.

NOT TRUE. The Bible is a Jewish and Gentile book which means it’s for all of us who are willing to come to Jesus by faith.

Where would protestants be without the Bible? The Bible did not even exist for the first twenty years after Jesus left, at ascended. Jesus did not have the new Testamanet, nor did the Apostles.

Didn’t you say the Bible wasn’t for non-catholic Christians? Now you ask where we’d be without it? I’m so easily confused.

Actually the apostles wrote the letters that became the NT.

The entire premise of sola scriptura is not Bible-based. It is a man-made idea ‘invented’ in the 15th century or thereabouts.

Thanks for your opinion.

It is weird that after the Protestants removed books from the (Catholic) Bible, they ended up with a number that could be taken as the mark of the beast – they have 66 books! This should give them a clue.

I sure hope some fellow catholics pick up on this one. The implication here is uncalled for.

BTW, I think Bee missed a 6.

That and the fact that their scaled-down version of the Bible is based on books those Jews who denied Jesus is Messiah defined as the OT canon. Contrary to that, the Catholic Bible is based on the books used by Jesus and the Apostles.

Where does the Pentateuch fit into this scholarly comment?

How about the prophetic books?

Jesus said “I am with you always, even unto the end of time”. Always does not mean, “first I am going away for 1100 years starting around the 4th century, and will return in truth through the likes of a man named Luther in about the 15th century. I will let those who live in that time when I am gone flounder and die outside of truth. See how powerful the Holy Spirit is!”

I’m glad (an understatement) that Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us. Hebrews 13:5.

 

[Church_Militant]

She/he posted that before my apology.​

This is not martyrdom.

The post stands.

I’ll wait for you to ‘stick up’ for those CM destorts, whether purposely or not. Let’s be fair. BTW, it’s not just CM that destorts so I’ll keep my eye on you for your support against others who do the same. I’m sure CM appreciates your support.

Oh get off it. You made a statement that you felt the Church erred in encouraging celibacy and I showed from scripture that your opinion opposes what the New Testament teaches.

If you didn’t mean that then perhaps you need to work on posting more clearly.

I haven’t distorted anything…merely carried it out to the logical conclusion. If you meant something different, you should have said as much.

If you oppose some aspect of the Catholic faith, then you had best know what you are talking about if you bring it here because I and many other of my Catholic brethren know both the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic Church and will explain and defend our most holy faith accordingly.

You’re the one telling me that the celibate priesthood in the Catholic Church is wrong.

Do you wish to retract any part of that now?

Be sure you make your remarks clear so there is no confusion about what you mean.

BTW…maybe you don’t take the time to look at signatures on here, but if you did, you’d not be having any confusion about my gender. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png

 

[Dokimas]

Oh get off it. You made a statement that you felt the Church erred in encouraging celibacy and I showed from scripture that your opinion opposes what the New Testament teaches.

Actually I’ve said the CC errored in ‘forbidding’ marriage to its church leaders. I know what the Bible says and you are correct if you think it encourages celebacy but it does NOT mandate it.

If you didn’t mean that then perhaps you need to work on posting more clearly.

 

[Church_Militant]

NOT TRUE. The Bible is a Jewish and Gentile book which means it’s for all of us who are willing to come to Jesus by faith.

Really? Which parts were penned by Gentiles?

Actually the apostles wrote the letters that became the NT.

Did they? How many Gospels were written by apostles?

The underlying question that you need to answer for yourself is who actually discerned what writings were inspired and belonged in the canon of scripture? It took nearly 4 centuries to gather and discern and define the inspired canon. What did those people say and on whose authority did they definitively decide?

Why didn’t the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas make it as canon?

Be clear now…

 

[Dokimas]

Really? Which parts were penned by Gentiles? Did they? How many Gospels were written by apostles?

Luke wrote two of them. One is a Gospel.

But that wasn’t my point. My point was that the Bible is for everyone.

The underlying question that you need to answer for yourself is who actually discerned what writings were inspired and belonged in the canon of scripture? It took nearly 4 centuries to gather and discern and define the inspired canon. What did those people say and on whose authority did they definitively decide?

I disagree. I don’t need to ask your question nor do I need an answer.

Why didn’t the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas make it as canon?

I sure hope because they were lead by the Holy Spirit. To Him belongs the glory and as God, glory we can’t call our own.

Be clear now…

Another condescending comment. You’re quite good at it. Well done.

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually I’ve said the CC errored in ‘forbidding’ marriage to its church leaders. I know what the Bible says and you are correct if you think it encourages celebacy but it does NOT mandate it.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

First off, let me clarify that when I say “Protestants” I am referring to some not all “Protestants”. Many “Protestants” here are here to learn about Catholicism and what Catholics believe. They and are very respectful and exhibit great Christian charity. They do believe differently as is their right to, but in no way do they demean and disrespect another Christian brothers and sisters. They are here to learn. To them I say thank you and the Peace of Christ be with you.

Therefore, one of my questions is and what concerns me is that once you are here and learn what Catholics and the Catholic Church teaches and believes about leaving the Catholic Church once you have accepted the fullness of truth and then decides to turn your back on it. And knowing full well that a Catholic is placing themselves in great peril of sin.

Why are the Protestants here are still willing to lead a Catholic, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith, into apostasy. How Christian and how much Christian charity is being applied here to do such a thing. If Protestants believe that Catholics are Christians, then why the need to prostulize them. To do this then the Protestants must consider the Catholic Christian to be inferior to them. I find this a perilous and arrogant position to take. Is it a matter of pride and believing that your beliefs and faith is the only legitimate one?

Do some of the Protestants here really believe that the Catholic Church and Catholic faith is inferior to yours, regardless of theological differences?

Do you really believe that it is your mission to lead a Catholic, who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the Truth?

How are your beliefs and faiths superior to the Catholic beliefs and faiths? Remember we all have the same Bible and aside from some grammatical differences in whatever translation, the Catholic and Protestant Gospels are the same.

Finally please show me where the Christian charity is in leading a Catholic who is at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith away from the into apostasy.

I just need to try and understand your logic.

As with the Protestant brothers and sisters above who do respect the Catholic, I also wish the Peace of Christ be with you also.

I’m really genuinely confused. If I were to try to learn about the tenets of your religion, and you were willing to tell me about the rules, tenets, etc. of your faith, and I did not become a Catholic, I am putting you in spiritual peril? Really?

Please do not misunderstand, I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I’m really floored by this…

As to MY logic…

I think there is SOMETHING out there, but I do not know what IT is, I am not an atheist, I hold out hope that there’s some defining force that we humans cannot understand.

However, while I was REALLY into religion in a big way when I was a teen/young adult…I kept coming back to feeling and thinking that organized religion made no sense to me…and to this day, well, I search, and try to make sense of what I blindly believed at one time, and found great comfort in it, to be blunt…and now…well, I cannot.

So, I hope to goodness I am not deceiving anyone. This is not my intent. I am searching…may be searching until the day I die

I’ve read books by different authors, with different points of view, from Christopher Hitchens to Dinesh D’Souza to Joseph Campbell. I’m struggling through Jesus: Interrupted at the moment. (it’s a bit of a dry read).

I actually found this forum when I was at work trying to kill time between patient rounds, to be honest, and I figured this would be a pretty neat BB to join.

I have subscribed to a handful of BB’s and groups, all with differing interests. As you see, I spend WAY too much time online. Comcast loves me…but, then again, perhaps not.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas;6742448:

So the Church should set their standards lower than the one that Our Lord set?

Just because Our Lord says that not everyone can hack it does not make it less a standard. Even the apostles saw that because they outright stated that it was better not to marry, didn’t they?

Please show me where Jesus said married leaders were unacceptable? You can’t and you haven’t. But I’ll wait for your Bible quotes that says church leaders can’t be married because that’s what this discussion is about. It’s NOT whether it is better to be celebate, which I’ve agreed with.

 

[Dokimas]

I’m really genuinely confused. If I were to try to learn about the tenets of your religion, and you were willing to tell me about the rules, tenets, etc. of your faith, and I did not become a Catholic, I am putting you in spiritual peril? Really?

Please do not misunderstand, I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I’m really floored by this…

As to MY logic…

I think there is SOMETHING out there, but I do not know what IT is, I am not an atheist, I hold out hope that there’s some defining force that we humans cannot understand.

However, while I was REALLY into religion in a big way when I was a teen/young adult…I kept coming back to feeling and thinking that organized religion made no sense to me…and to this day, well, I search, and try to make sense of what I blindly believed at one time, and found great comfort in it, to be blunt…and now…well, I cannot.

So, I hope to goodness I am not deceiving anyone. This is not my intent. I am searching…may be searching until the day I die

I’ve read books by different authors, with different points of view, from Christopher Hitchens to Dinesh D’Souza to Joseph Campbell. I’m struggling through Jesus: Interrupted at the moment. (it’s a bit of a dry read).

I actually found this forum when I was at work trying to kill time between patient rounds, to be honest, and I figured this would be a pretty neat BB to join.

I have subscribed to a handful of BB’s and groups, all with differing interests. As you see, I spend WAY too much time online. Comcast loves me…but, then again, perhaps not.

Have you read ‘Mere Christianity’ by CS Lewis?

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m really genuinely confused. If I were to try to learn about the tenets of your religion, and you were willing to tell me about the rules, tenets, etc. of your faith, and I did not become a Catholic, I am putting you in spiritual peril? Really?

I don’t think he meant that. The real problem is that if one gets all that knowledge and assents to its truth and then refuses to become Catholic, persisting in that willful obstinacy to death…one would put one’s own soul in dire jeopardy.

As to MY logic…

I think there is SOMETHING out there, but I do not know what IT is, I am not an atheist, I hold out hope that there’s some defining force that we humans cannot understand.

However, while I was REALLY into religion in a big way when I was a teen/young adult…I kept coming back to feeling and thinking that organized religion made no sense to me…and to this day, well, I search, and try to make sense of what I blindly believed at one time, and found great comfort in it, to be blunt…and now…well, I cannot.

So, I hope to goodness I am not deceiving anyone. This is not my intent. I am searching…may be searching until the day I die

I understand. If you need to talk privately, feel free to PM me.

I actually found this forum when I was at work trying to kill time between patient rounds, to be honest, and I figured this would be a pretty neat BB to join.

Welcome! We’ll try to make it good for you.

Comcast loves me…but, then again, perhaps not.

LOL…so long as you have their green every month, right?

 

[guanophore]

. God is love, the Bible is his word, that is the Truth.

While we are in agreement on these two points, it is likely that you will consider your perception of what the bible means as “truth”, while we believe that it should not be read in isolation from the Apostolic Faith that produced it.

. If you fear for these people who are “at a spiritual low and weakened in his or her faith” will not follow the Catholic way of Christianity the flaw lies in the religion, not in the people speaking truth to them.

No, this is not the case. There is no flaw in the Church founded by Christ. However, there are individual flaws in the persons who are members of her. I used to be one of those “weak in the faith” people. I did not know it was my responsibility to study, understand, and defend my faith. So when people came along speaking the “truth” from their bibles, I wandered away after them. I did not know that the Catholic Church produced the Bible, and that everything in it is Catholic. there is no flaw in the 'religion". The flaw lies in the people who do not take responsibility to study to show themselves approved, and in those whose responsibility it is to form them in their faith.

. If their faith crumbles at questioning then they do not stand on the Rock of Christianity that those “non-Catholics” have found.

This statement is false for several reasons. One, a person can be very grounded in the Rock of Christianity, but not have any expereince with apologetics.

Second this statement seems to assume that non-Catholic Christians have found a “Rock of Christianity” that Catholics have not,a nd thi is false.

. Questioning is good, “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” Romans 12:2 (ESV)

I agree, which is why we have CAF!

. "If Protestants believe that Catholics are Christians, then why the need to prostulize them… I find this a perilous and arrogant position to take. Is it a matter of pride and believing that your beliefs and faith is the only legitimate one? "

It is not pride that we believe our faith was founded by Christ. It is not pride that makes us recognize that all the other denominations have departed to some extent from the faith of the Apostles. It is just a matter of fact, and historical record.

I note you did not answer the question. If non-Catholics believe Catholics are Christians, why the need to proselytize them?

Are you saying that we need proselytizing because we believe our Church existed prior to all the others?

.-Why do you worry that people will convert and not be Catholics?

Yes. When this happens, a person chooses to leave the fullness of the faith, and to settle for that which has lost some of the Truth.

.Do you think that other denominations or non-denominational Christians are less legitimate?

That would not be the way I would describe it.

I would say that they are defined by which parts of the Apostolic faith they have rejected.

. Because your entire question/argument is proving that you view converting out of catholicism is a problem?

Definitely.

. We worship the same God, why do you fret over this instead of worrying about the unsaved? The un-christian?

Personally, I don’t, no. But that was the point of the thread, as well. If non-Catholics believe that Catholics are Christians, why do they need to be “saved”?

Why not go to those who do not claim to know the Lord?

Or, if n-c don’t believe Catholics are Christians, that seems to be motivation to evangelize.

. Those are the people we should reach out to.

Yes, I think that was part of the implication in the OP (that means “original post” or original poster who started the thread)

. How are your beliefs and faiths superior to the Catholic beliefs and faiths?

This would be a good topic for a new thread! Actually I see there is one thread running that is asking “tell me what is wrong with my n-c church” or something like that. I read that thread, and agree with the responses to that question.

. Remember we all have the same Bible and aside from some grammatical differences in whatever translation, the Catholic and Protestant Gospels are the same.

These are two false statements. Reformers took books out of the Bible, so that Protestants don’t have the same books used by Jesus and the Apostles.

Some non-Catholic groups have drifted so far from the Apostolic faith so as to constitute what we consider “a different gospel” which we must reject, since it is not that which was committed to the Church.

.
-Our beliefs are not superior. Catholics and protestants do follow different bibles.

No, I really don’t think that the difference in Bible is the issue here. The difference is the manner in which it is read and understood. Catholics understand it in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught. Our separated brethren have been divided from those beleifs and practices for 500 years now, so they understand what is written quite diffferently than we do.

.The Gospels, God, basics are the same but their are critical differences in the faiths and practices.

I don’t think this is true. I think we probably even have very different notions of what it means to be saved, which I think we would both agree is “basic”.

I am glad you are here, Lin. Hopefully you will have a better grasp of those differences.

 

[Church_Militant]

Church Militant;6742489:

Please show me where Jesus said married leaders were unacceptable? You can’t and you haven’t. But I’ll wait for your Bible quotes that says church leaders can’t be married because that’s what this discussion is about. It’s NOT whether it is better to be celebate, which I’ve agreed with.

When you show us where it says that a celibate church leader is unacceptable.

 

[Dokimas]

When you show us where it says that a celibate church leader is unacceptable.

I can’t because It doesn’t as I’ve stated over and over and over. What part of this are you not understanding?

Now it’s your turn to answer my challenge.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Have you read ‘Mere Christianity’ by CS Lewis?

No, I haven’t.
I planned to at one time, but for whatever reason, I didn’t. I take it you recommend it? I will get it, I have a nook, and boy, is it a handy device…

 

[guanophore]

Too bad young men in catholic seminaries studying for the priesthood can’t experience this,

Experience what? The desire to be married? What makes you think they dont’? Do you think this is something that can be prevented in a person?

I don’t think you are hearing me Doki. I am saying that celibacy is a GIFT from God. It cannot be mandated. Similarly, marriage is also a GIFT from God, and therefore, it cannot be taken away from a person, or “prevented”. Both gifts are to be received with thanksgiving.

It is true that many who enter seminiary are unclear about their calling. This is not a problem. Part of being in seminary is to discern one’s gifts.

not because they have to, but because they may want to chose to be married. That choice is taken away, if they want to be a priest, hoping one day to be a bishop and maybe a cardinal.

No, Doki, you are mistaken. This is not a choice that it is possible for the Church to 'take away".

A person discerning the priesthood has the choice to get married before, during, and after seminary. For many, this choice is clarified while they are in seminary.

I would be very suspicious of anyone who is “hoping one day to be a bishop or maybe a cardinal”. I would be suspicious of that person’s ego drives. It might indicate they are pursing the ministry with motives other than service, and their ambition might interfere with their calling. However, this has nothing to do with the gift of celibacy. Celibates can be as afflicted with ambition as much as married people.

 

[Dokimas]

No, I haven’t.
I planned to at one time, but for whatever reason, I didn’t. I take it you recommend it? I will get it, I have a nook, and boy, is it a handy device…

Yes I do.

What’s a nook?

 

[Church_Militant]

I can’t because It doesn’t as I’ve stated over and over and over. What part of this are you not understanding?

Now it’s your turn to answer my challenge.

What challenge?

Nowhere I have I stated that married clergy are unacceptable and the Catholic Church does not say that either because some rites within it allow them.

You waste too much of people’s time with this kind of argument.

 

[Dokimas]

Experience what? The desire to be married? What makes you think they dont’? Do you think this is something that can be prevented in a person?

I don’t think you are hearing me Doki. I am saying that celibacy is a GIFT from God. It cannot be mandated. Similarly, marriage is also a GIFT from God, and therefore, it cannot be taken away from a person, or “prevented”. Both gifts are to be received with thanksgiving.

It is true that many who enter seminiary are unclear about their calling. This is not a problem. Part of being in seminary is to discern one’s gifts.

No, Doki, you are mistaken. This is not a choice that it is possible for the Church to 'take away".

The following is taken from: catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp

“The Church simply elects candidates for the priesthood (or, in the Eastern rites, for the episcopacy) from among those who voluntarily renounce marriage.”

A rose by any other name is still a rose. The CC choose not to allow men to be priest and to marry and stay priest. It just happened in FL (I believe it was there).

 

[Dokimas]

What challenge?

Nowhere I have I stated that married clergy are unacceptable and the Catholic Church does not say that either because some rites within it allow them.

You waste too much of people’s time with this kind of argument.

I thought the CC has one teaching on any given subject, the unity idea?

 

[phoenixrrt62]

I don’t think he meant that. The real problem is that if one gets all that knowledge and assents to its truth and then refuses to become Catholic, persisting in that willful obstinacy to death…one would put one’s own soul in dire jeopardy.

So…say I understand some article, tenant, belief you hold to be true, but DO NOT AGREE with said belief, there’s no harm to your soul, right?
Or mine…well, I suppose if I didn’t believe that my soul would be harmed, it would be a moot point…

But…if I say, oh, yeah, I agree with this belief, sounds great to me, and walk away with this knowledge and not make an effort to put this belief into practice, I am placing your soul in peril? Or is it MY soul that is in peril?
Or both?
I’m gathering it would be mine…

You know…forever ago, I did start to go through religious instruction. I was a freshman in college. I got no father than the idea of the trinity and transubstantiation. I could not reconcile myself to swallow that belief…sorry.
SO, needless to say, that was the end of MY religious instruction. The nun was very kind about it all, though. I really felt so bad that I just couldn’t swallow the idea…

Anyway. I am gathering I am NOT OT here, unlike I was on another thread, so I stopped discussing this…I kind of felt bad that I couldn’t ask more questions on the other thread, but I was pulling the thread way OT
The poster really opened my eyes a bit to some basic tenants, but…I still can’t reconcile myself to believe them…makes no sense to me, it just does not…