A question for the anti-abortionists

[Grace_Angel]

How does further victimizing and exploiting the mother solve anything?

How does killing the baby in her womb solve anything?
GraceAngel.

 

[Beltany13]

there are defects in the womb that can be a risk to the life of the mother, and the baby wouldnt survive outside of an hour anyway, such as an external spine, and other deformities. an abortion doesnt risk the life of the mother, whereas delivering a baby just to die ensures the babys death, and risks the mothers.

So, you decide the quality of a persons life, huh?

 

[iamme]

So, you decide the quality of a persons life, huh?

actually, that was my cousin, who carried the baby to term, died during delivery, while the baby followed an hour later.

so, you get to be smarmy and holier than thou because you think something is a hypothetical situation, huh?

 

[maggiemay2u]

there are defects in the womb that can be a risk to the life of the mother, and the baby wouldnt survive outside of an hour anyway, such as an external spine, and other deformities. an abortion doesnt risk the life of the mother, whereas delivering a baby just to die ensures the babys death, and risks the mothers.

So who gets to decide what’s bad enough to kill a child?

 

[Doc2be]

there are defects in the womb that can be a risk to the life of the mother, and the baby wouldnt survive outside of an hour anyway, such as an external spine, and other deformities. an abortion doesnt risk the life of the mother, whereas delivering a baby just to die ensures the babys death, and risks the mothers.

I am in medical school. Not one procedure done has that kind of reassurance…even removing a mole. There is always that one thing that can go wrong.

Doesn’t risk the life of the mother? Do you know how an abortion is done? Do you know how taxing it is on the mother’s body, how taxing it is emotionally?

Here is a link to Fr. Frank Pavone explaining suction abortions:
youtube.com/watch?v=QBOAPleF1t0&feature=PlayList&p=66EB86653B114B72&playnext=1&index=3

That makes me sad that you can sit in your high place of honor and make claims that only the doctors are the murderers, that babies who have deformities have no right to life, what if you had a brother born with down syndrome? Would you want your parents to kill him just because he isn’t “normal.” Is that justified? If you think so, how?

To answer your question about “back alley abortions.” They will happen no matter what the law says about abortion. They happen now. As long as we live in a society that allows people to think that murdering their unborn child is OKAY they will happen! People are resourceful and desperate. As long as we live in a society of Death “back alley abortions” will happen! So, instead of trying to defend abortion with broken arguments, defend life and live for God and not the World.

Plus, if abortions were to be made illegal that does not mean that all the counseling, and help would just disappear. If anything I would expect it to increase to help those who need it. Making abortion illegal will not leave us in some sort of vacuum with no help to new mothers, or “unexpected” mothers.

delivering a baby just to die ensures the babys death, and risks the mothers.

Look at the wording you used in this sentence…delivering a baby just to die…what part of that includes murder? No part, delivering a baby that was created by God, how ever “normal” we think he/she is, is never murder. It does not ensure the babies death! Either way this is a slippery slope. Well I mean if the baby is going to die anyways, why not kill him/her yourself. Well, there are plenty elderly people who are going to die any day now…why don’t we just cut off all of their food, all of their help? I have seen an argument evolve like that and it is dangerous.

Risk to the mother? So, what part of life is completely without risks? What part of medicine is completely without risks? NO PART! The mother is/should be fully informed as to what her pregnancy will be like. We have so many tests we can do to help us be prepared. Once labor comes they should put their trust in God, if they don’t believe in God then they should put their trust in the (hopefully) skilled hands of those assisting them. At no point and for no reason is seeking Death justified or dignified. We need to move past the romantic era and get back to reality. Let us live for God and not Death!

 

[Doc2be]

actually, that was my cousin, who carried the baby to term, died during delivery, while the baby followed an hour later.

so, you get to be smarmy and holier than thou because you think something is a hypothetical situation, huh?

Death is very difficult, especially when it is someone close to you. I would never say anything different. But, I implore you to not look at this death as some sort of bad thing, as some sort of punishment (so to speak). If there is one thing being Catholic, even just plain faith in Christ can teach us, is that it isn’t about this life. It is about our life with Christ. We just need to do everything we can in this life, so as to be with Christ in the end.

I am sorry for your loss and I will pray for your cousin and her baby.

 

[Beltany13]

actually, that was my cousin, who carried the baby to term, died during delivery, while the baby followed an hour later.

so, you get to be smarmy and holier than thou because you think something is a hypothetical situation, huh?

I apologize, but this has nothing to do with being “holier than thou” or whatever other assumptions you’ve drawn from my comment.

Someone as learned as you should understand that your hypothetical situation could be used to justify the killing of the infirm, much like in Nazi, Germany.

Were there any guarantees that your cousin and the baby were going to die? No. So, I don’t think we should go about killing children because"they might die" or because"they might not live a very good life, being that ill and all."

We don’t kill the infirm because they are a burden. So, if a child indeed does have a terrible illness, I ask again: Who are you to decide anyone’s quality of life?

I’m being holier than thou, yet you support a woman’s right to play God. Somehow I think your problems are bigger than mine.

 

[iamme]

Death is very difficult, especially when it is someone close to you. I would never say anything different. But, I implore you to not look at this death as some sort of bad thing, as some sort of punishment (so to speak). If there is one thing being Catholic, even just plain faith in Christ can teach us, is that it isn’t about this life. It is about our life with Christ. We just need to do everything we can in this life, so as to be with Christ in the end.

I am sorry for your loss and I will pray for your cousin and her baby.

it wasnt a punishment, it just happened. she knew the risks, and was prepared to take them on the chance that her son would grow up. she was much braver than i would have been, and i would not have thought twice about the abortion option. when you were talking about abortion being a risky procedure, of course it is, any kind of invasive procedure has risks, but i was referring to the risk it carried vs the risk of delivery, which, obviously, was fatal. but again, she was a good mother to her other sons, and a good wife to pastor michael thames. i didnt always like cara, but i always loved her.

 

[iamme]

I apologize, but this has nothing to do with being “holier than thou” or whatever other assumptions you’ve drawn from my comment.

Someone as learned as you should understand that your hypothetical situation could be used to justify the killing of the infirm, much like in Nazi, Germany.

Were there any guarantees that your cousin and the baby were going to die? No. So, I don’t think we should go about killing children because"they might die" or because"they might not live a very good life, being that ill and all."

We don’t kill the infirm because they are a burden. So, if a child indeed does have a terrible illness, I ask again: Who are you to decide anyone’s quality of life?

I’m being holier than thou, yet you support a woman’s right to play God. Somehow I think your problems are bigger than mine.

are you slow? it wasnt hypothetical, it was an actual situation that you have yet again trivialized.

classy

EDIT: and yes, the baby was going to die, but she would not have an abortion. she refused to give up hope, even where there was none. it was selfish and foolish of her, but it was her choice.

 

[Beltany13]

are you slow? it wasnt hypothetical, it was an actual situation that you have yet again trivialized.

classy

Did you not offer a hypothetical situation a page back - in your original OP?

Sorry for your loss, however.

EDIT: Who said the baby was going die? Unless Jesus Christ Himself said so, then it wasn’t a guarantee. Ya know, I have cousins and friends, too. And one friend of mine was in a terrible car accident and was paralyzed. The doctors swore up and down she would never walk again…

Guess what she’s doing today?

Walking.

Doctors aren’t always right.

 

[iamme]

Did you not offer a hypothetical situation a page back - in your original OP?

no, there wasnt.

 

[Beltany13]

there are defects in the womb that can be a risk to the life of the mother, and the baby wouldnt survive outside of an hour anyway, such as an external spine, and other deformities. an abortion doesnt risk the life of the mother, whereas delivering a baby just to die ensures the babys death, and risks the mothers.

My “Who are you to decide the quality of a person’s life” was directed at that.

However, I would like to know what disease your cousins baby had that ensured its demise. Perhaps if you want people to understand what you’re saying precisely, you might provide the necessary information. No?

 

[iamme]

botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

My “Who are you to decide the quality of a person’s life” was directed at that. There are babies alive today that survived botched back alley abortions.

However, I would like to know what disease your cousins baby had that ensured its demise. Perhaps if you want people to understand what you’re saying precisely, you might provide the necessary information. No?

i love the smell of hypocrisy in the evening…
first of all, you didnt quote that, you quoted me replying to how an abortion could be justified, and without going into specifics, because really, its none of your buisiness, said if there was a birth defect, or DEFORMITY, such as an EXTERNAL SPINE which would ensure the babys death, and risk the mothers during delivery. THAT is what YOU quoted, and responded with “So, you decide the quality of a persons life, huh?”…

so theres two possibilities here.

1. you need to try following your own advice, and make sure you know what youre quoting, know what youre talking about, and try to sound a little less like someone whos being rude because they didnt get a choice about having a kid after having premarital sex at 17.
   or
2. be nicer and quote correctly so people can understand YOU.

and i dont know if there even was a disease that caused my cousins fetus deformity, it just developed an external spine. oh, and just so you can understand me, that means the spine was on the outside, not the inside.

would you like her social security number or address or anything else?
you could at least say you think im lying and i can put you on ignore, bettering the boards for both of us.

 

[RobbyS]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

A large portion of “back street” abortion were performed by family physicians for middle class families. The Texas law overthrown by Roe did not punish women but doctors, and an abortionist who joined his appeal to hers was the only person who got legal relief. As to the act itself, we ought to ask why women get abortions and how might society better provide for them than simply allowing them to kill their children. The most sophistical part of the Blackmun opinion is the pretense that there is something mysterious about the beginings of a human life. But it is was the scientific discovery of the answer to that question that led the Texas Medical association to demand a law prohibiting physicians from doing abortions. Nothing we have learned since has disproved what was first observed in thr 1840s, that a new individual appears immediately when a sperm penetrates an ovum.

 

[Beltany13]

i love the smell of hypocrisy in the evening…

Gee, I’m looking forward to facing my hypocrisy.

first of all, you didnt quote that, you quoted me replying to how an abortion could be justified, and without going into specifics, because really, its none of your buisiness, said if there was a birth defect, or DEFORMITY, such as an EXTERNAL SPINE which would ensure the babys death, and risk the mothers during delivery. THAT is what YOU quoted, and responded with “So, you decide the quality of a persons life, huh?”…

Read above. I edited. I realized what I was replying to, and then once I did, I changed it. Please review the timestamp and you’ll see that it was your haste that caused this problem.

Furthermore, for you to say that it is none of my business when you, in fact, made it our business by bringing it up, is the ultimate form of hypocrisy. So, practice what you preach, please.

so theres two possibilities here.

False dichotomy.

1. you need to try following your own advice, and make sure you know what youre quoting, know what youre talking about, and try to sound a little less like someone whos being rude because they didnt get a choice about having a kid after having premarital sex at 17.

Who here, besides you, is being rude? Certainly not me. I’m simply responding to a pro-abortionist who doesn’t know how to express himself clearly. Perhaps you are simply drunk.

“Woe to the drunkard.”

or
2) be nicer and quote correctly so people can understand YOU.

Again, check the timestamp. I edited my post for accuracy. TWELVE MINUTES BEFORE YOU POSTED YOURS!!!

and i dont know if there even was a disease that caused my cousins fetus deformity, it just developed an external spine. oh, and just so you can understand me, that means the spine was on the outside, not the inside.

would you like her social security number or address or anything else?

you could at least say you think im lying and i can put you on ignore, bettering the boards for both of us.

There have been children born with two spines and two heads, and they have lived and so did the mother. So, simply using one tragic accident to justify the murder of millions of innocent babies is beyond ridiculous - even for you. In fact, I would rather you put me on ignore so I don’t have to read your pathetic arguments, weep at your reasoning abilities, and endure your condescending attitude. Because, trust me, from where I’m sitting, you’ve nothing in your corner justifying your condescension.

 

[apromisemade]

I agree that just because something might be “safer” if legalalized, that doesn’t mean it should be. Drugs, of course, is the classic example. There are a lot of aspects of hard drugs that might be safer (purity, gang violence) if it was regulated. But drugs are still powerfully addictive, which means one way or another, they will always lead to death and suffering if left unchecked.

Legal or not, abortion will always result in someone getting hurt. Which is why I think preventing it needs to be a grassroots movement if you will. The fight needs to be taken to where the problem lies, with the hearts and minds of the people.

 

[Jehanne_Darc]

if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

Regarding your first question: I think that a number of abortions would still occur, but the numbers would drop dramatically. I will be tabulating the results of studies on the effects of various changes in policy on abortion. I know, from my preliminary study of the results, that impeding abortion usually has a diminishing effect on the numbers. Of course there will still be illegal unreported abortions, but society won’t be promoting and supporting it.

Regarding your second question: As the previous comments mentioned the greatest harm to women comes from having an abortion in the first place whether that be a legal or an illegal one. I am not sure if a reliable number can be found for “hack-job” abortions for any time before or after 1973. So I am not sure that a good answer can be given to the question of how much less harm do legal abortions inflict on women compared to illegal abortions.

I have to note though that you have chosen to enter into dialogue on this matter in a pro-life forum and have for the most part (based on my cursory glance through the pages of comments) been civil and responsive. I hope you find The Truth you seek. Or maybe you are searching for Peace? The Truth will give you Peace, the changing that has to be done as a consequence of finding the truth may feel uncomfortable, but you can have peace knowing that you are walking on the right road. Sort of like when a chiropractor adjusts a body that has been used to a misalignment, the body feels out of sorts for a while struggling against the proper healthier alignment, because it is not used to it.

 

[Grace_Angel]

are you slow? it wasnt hypothetical, it was an actual situation that you have yet again trivialized.

classy

EDIT: and yes, the baby was going to die, but she would not have an abortion. she refused to give up hope, even where there was none. it was selfish and foolish of her, but it was her choice.

There was nothing selfish or foolish about her. In fact if you opened your heart and mind and stopped being bitter for whatever your reason you would see that these are indeed the words of Jesus “No greater love is there he/she should give his/her life for another” This is what your ousin did. She weighed up the scenario and decided in favour of her child irrespective of how small the odds were. You should be proud that you are related to such a beautiful lady and her equally beauitiful child. Two saints in heaven loving you in the dimension of God.
GraceAngel.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

That’s actually a myth. The majority of illegal abortions were performed in doctors offices, not back alleys. That is just a lie used to scare people into allowing them to remain legal.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Abortionist, I’ve lacerated many women’s uteruses

Journalist, Mark Feldstein reported on abortionist Milan Vuitch in his reports, See No Evil, for WTSP-TV (St. Petersburg, FL: March, 1981); and Investigation of Dr. Milan Vuitch, WDVM-TV (Washington, D.C.: Nov. 1984).

In Feldstein’s, Kissing Cousins: Journalism and Oral History, he describes a the interview and a comment by Vuitch:

"During my own work as a journalist, I often found that despite the television interviewer’s customary antipathy to dead airtime, silence can elicit the most damning admissions of all. “I don’t charge extra for rats, they come free when I rent the property,” one slumlord eventually told me on-camera. Similarly, a negligent gynecologist (Milan Vuitch) responded to my silence by stating, “Oh, I’ve lacerated many women’s [sic] uteruses, this is no big deal.”