A question for the anti-abortionists

[iamme]

First of all, I don’t believe a person having premarital sex means they’re evil. They’ve committed a sin, sure. But I don’t believe that act alone makes them an evil person.

Secondly, I didn’t force her to have an abortion. If you recall my story, she and I agreed to HAVE THE CHILD. It was her parents who had other ideas. She lied to me, obtained an abortion, and the rest is history.

So, you were saying?

i think you lie. you didnt use a condom, which got her pregnant. YOU got her pregnant. as a result of YOU getting her pregnant, she had to get an abortion (probably because she didnt love you), which means that it was your fault. also, sin is evil, premarital sex is a sin, youre evil.

takes evil to recognize evil

 

[iamme]

I started praying for this angry young person a few days ago. I pray for guidance and spiritual awakening and the power of the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide her in troubled life.

…

shes a he…
i wondered why god had me wear a dress today.

 

[iamme]

So what part about a baby that undergoes every single biological process that you do makes it not alive? So, something is not alive until it is born? I mean we don’t even have to touch souls here…it just plain has no life since it is still in the womb. So something magical happens/changes when the child is born? Please explain…

the umbilical cord is cut. its magic.

but really, it means the baby is now a separate entity from its mother, which until now, was a part of the mother, tho in the last trimester it is mostly self sufficient…

as to the rest of your quote, neat.

 

[Beltany13]

i think you lie. you didnt use a condom, which got her pregnant. YOU got her pregnant. as a result of YOU getting her pregnant, she had to get an abortion (probably because she didnt love you), which means that it was your fault. also, sin is evil, premarital sex is a sin, youre evil.

takes evil to recognize evil

I do not lie. And no, I didn’t use a condom and never claimed I did. Yes,** I ** did get her pregnant. She obtained an abortion because she gave in to her parents. And I don’t care if she did or didn’t love me. And, yes, sin is evil but the person committing the sin is not, necessarily, an evil person. If you understand Christianity, this is clear. You understanding of Christianity seems comparable to your understanding of everything else, which doesn’t help your argument.

Now, I understand you operate with diminished mental capacity much of the time, but think about what you’re saying: Because I got her pregnant, I’m responsible for the abortion.

Laughable.

Philosophically, that may or may not be true. However, practically, it isn’t true. Just like, practically, if you grew up to be a murderer (and you probably are), your parents aren’t responsible simply because they gave birth to you. Perhaps they’re responsible, in so many ways, because they didn’t raise you right, but the very fact they had you does not, in and of itself, mean they are responsible for YOUR actions. And indeed, ultimately, YOUR actions are YOUR fault. Her actions and her parents influence were the ultimate cause, not the sex. Because, on the other hand, she could have had the child. What, then, would I have been responsible for, in your mind?

Your attempts at making me feel bad are pathetic, you realize.

 

[estesbob]

the term back street, is a general term used to mean illegal, although there were some performed “back street”…
your numbers dont really hold any water, because when something is illegal, youll never actually know just how much of the illegal activity is going on. you can estimate, or guess, but you cant say “this is a fact” because you dont have all the information. im sure the number rose tho, as with legalization the stigma and shame tends to wear away.

My numers are correct. The idea that somehow you could hide the deaths of thousands of women is specious. Deaths of women of childbearing age is not common and 95% of deaths of women of chidld beaing age were from accidental death. The other 5% were from readily identifiable causes such as cancer, pnemonia, etc. The death toll from abortion dropped dramatically with the advent of anti-biotics in the late 40s.

In any discussion one is entitled to their own opinion-what you are not entitled to is your own “facts” My statsistics are readily verifiable frm a multitude oif sources-you could start with the CDC or check out a copy of “Abortion then and Now” by Gemain Griesez where you can see a statitical breakdown of deaths of women of child bearing age in the decads before Roe. you will see that the myth of a the massive death toll from illegal abortions is unsuportable no matter how one tries to parse the numbers.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

sha na na na na, na na na na na na, hey, hey ,hey,…goooooodbye :harp:

darn it, i cant carry a tune even when i type it!

 

[JRKH]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be?

Ramifications:

1. There would be fewer abortions
   a) because it is illegal and many people would choose to not break the law,
   b) access would not be as easy
   c) it would not be seen as just another method of birth control
   d) the fact that it is illegal and dangerous to the mother would prevent many from seeking one
2. More healthy normal Children would be born into the world.

remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them.

Well perhaps knowing that She might die, would prevent a goodly number of mothers from killing their babies. When a person chooses to do something that is illegal, shouldn’t they be prepared to reap the results of that foolish and illegal action? If a person goes in to rob a bank, an illegal action, and is shot and killed during, or as a result of, that illegal act, do we not consider that the person “got what they deserved”. I do not say this out of malice but when one enters into an illegal act, there are consequences.

knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

I do not condone abortion period - Legal or illegal. However The fact that a practice will occur illegally if it is not available legally is not, in and of itself, grounds for legalizing it. If that were the case nothing at all would be illegal.

I am not "OK’ with anyone coming to any harm under either circumstances. However I cannot control the decisions of the individuals. Besides, in your own words, abortions will be performed whether it is legal or not. The real question becomes 1) will there be more or fewer if it is illegal, and 2) will there be more or fewer dead babies.

In so far as the legal, and not personal, aspects go we must consider, and decide as a country, when a person is a human being, a homo sapien. By any scientific understanding that occurs, not at birth, but at conception when the DNA is complete and the cycle of growing begins. This growing, and maturing will continue, if not interfered with, until natural death. It is not science that argues against it being human at conception, it is the law and politics that does this.
Our first and main goal therefore is to educate those who are ignorant of these facts. Thus they can make a truly informed decision.

Peace
James

 

[Chris_LaRock]

**Deception **
“They [the women] are never allowed to look at the ultrasound because we knew that if they so much as heard the heart beat, they wouldn’t want to have an abortion.”
Dr. Randall, abortion physician

“Sonography in connection with induced abortion may have psychological hazards. Seeing a blown-up, moving image of the embryo she is carrying can be distressing to a woman who is about to undergo an abortion, Dr. Sally Faith Dorfman noted. She stressed that the screen should be turned away from the patient.” --“Obstetrics and Gynecology News” editorial February 15-28, 1986

"Every woman has these same two questions: First, “Is it a baby?” “No” the counselor assures her. “It is a product of conception (or a blood clot, or a piece of tissue). . .How many women would have an abortion, if they told them the truth?”
Carol Everett, former owner of two clinics and director of four “A Walk Through an Abortion Clinic” by Carol Everett ALL About Issues magazine Aug-Sept 1991, p 117

"We tried to avoid the women seeing them [the fetuses] They always wanted to know the sex, but we lied and said it was too early to tell. It’s better for the women to think of the fetus as an ‘it’.
Abortion clinic worker Norma Eidelman quoted in Rachel Weeping p 34

“When discussing the sonogram, you are supposed to tell the client that it is a measurement as far as the pregnancy is concerned, but not a measure of the fetal head or anything like that.”
Rosemary Petruso, on her training to be an abortion counselor. Her story appeared in the St.Louis Review and was also quoted in “Women Exploited: The Other Victims of Abortion” Paula Ervin, editor. Huntington: Our Sunday Visitor, 1985
“Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like at a certain point in the pregnancy: Was it a baby yet? Even as early as 12 weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say ‘It’s not a baby yet. It’s just tissue, like a clot.’”
–Kathy Sparks told in “The Conversion of Kathy Sparks” by Gloria Williamson, Christian Herald Jan 1986 p 28

“In fact many women will come to me considering abortion, and I have been personally told that I am to turn the monitor away from her view so that seeing her baby jump around on the screen does not influence her choice.”
Shari Richards, quoted from the John Ankerburg Show on 3/7/90

“I have seen hundreds of patients in my office who have had abortions and were just lied to by the abortion counselor. Namely ‘This is less painful than having a tooth removed. It is not a baby.’ Afterwards, the woman sees Life magazine and breaks down and goes into a major depression.”
Psychologist Vincent Rue quoted in “Abortion Inc” David Kupelian and Jo Ann Gasper, New Dimensions, October 1991 p 16

“We were hiding from the women some of the pieces of truth about abortion that were threatening… It is a kind of killing.”
From the Dallas Observer 3/18/95 Former clinic administrator Charlotte Taft Faye Wattleton responded to the statement: “It’s not a frog or a ferret that’s being killed. It’s a baby,” with “I am fully aware of that. I am fully aware of that.”
Faye Wattleton on the Phil Donahue Show (Donahue Transcript # 3288, 1991)

 

[elts1956]

no, its not.
how can something be innocent if it isnt given the chance to sin?
innocent is having the choice, and choosing not to.

I would say that would be making a right moral choice.

 

[elts1956]

the umbilical cord is cut. its magic.

but really, it means the baby is now a separate entity from its mother, which until now, was a part of the mother, tho in the last trimester it is mostly self sufficient…

as to the rest of your quote, neat.

The baby has always been a separate entity from its mother, having its own significant DNA, not the mother’s. As it grows in its mother’s womb its faculties for sensorial experiences increases as does all biological body parts necessary for survival once it is ready to be born. How you can say that biologically the baby and the mother are the same person, which is what you are saying, I will never understand.

 

[Grace_Angel]

sha na na na na, na na na na na na, hey, hey ,hey,…goooooodbye :harp:

darn it, i cant carry a tune even when i type it!

Where are you going? tra la la la la la.
GraceAngel.

 

[Lainey63]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

Just think the day after abortion was legalized in this country…thos same “back alley abortionists”…were now protected by law.

 

[Benedict108]

For those of you who think that abortion is safe now that it is legalized consider the following:

1. In 2003, the California Department of Health Services cited a Los Angeles Planned Parenthood for numerous deficiencies following the death of Diana Lopez. Diana Lopez bled to death in 2002 afer her cervix was allegedly punctured during an abortion. (Griffith, Dorsey, “State Faults Clinic in Death,”* The Sacremento Bee*, online edition, June 19, 2003)
2. In 2001, a San Francisco Court decision awarded $672,610 in damages to a Yogoslav immigrant whose preborn child suffered the loss of two limbs during a botched abortion at Planned Parenthood. (Wetzstein, Cheryl, “Planned Parenthood told to pay $672,610 for botched abortion,” The Wasthington Times, March 1, 2001, p. A1.)

This is just to name a few of the numerous mishaps that happen with abortion. The execution of this procedure is tantamount to murder and the reasons such as rape or incest that are so often cited as a defense for its execution make up only about 1% of its practise. The bottom line is that abortion is currently being used as a method of contraception with women have many over the duration of a life time and doing great harm to their bodies and minds. It legalization has opened doors to Margret Sanger’s vision of racial cleansing and eugenics.

The bottom line is human beings are now attempting to put themselves as judges over the quality of life and if they seem to think that one’s life is not good enough they terminate it. People must keep in mind that it is a human being in the womb not a glob of tissue with it own unique DNA. Further, it is claimed that it is okay to kill a pre-born because it is dependent on its mother until it is out of the womb, but even then it is still dependent. A baby is always dependent on someone. Heck, I know adults that still depend on their parents. Everyone depends one everyone to survive.

 

[KLIBERA]

For Abortion To Disappear & I Wish It Would, It Would Have To Come Thru Cultural Evolution Of Society. It Has Become A Political Issue Whereby The Entrenched Congress Will View The Power Of Law As Higher Than Natural Law & Where They Are Afraid Of Losing Votes. I Wish For Now There Was A Middle Road. The Way To Approach The Issue Is To Penalize The Docs Who Do Them So That It Becomes Harder To Do It On Demand. Just Fines–no Jail Terms. Those Who Go To The Back Alley Should Remember That There Body Is Really God’s Gift To Them. Let It Wear On Their Conscience. We Should At Least Discourage Abortion As A Birth-control Method. Our New President Definetley Has It Wrong On This Issue. I Don’t Know If Its A Job Security Issue For Him Or What, But So Far He Has Not Decided To Meet Pro-life People Halfway. I Think Bishops Should Definitely Make It Clear To Congressmen That Those In Power To Make Law Are Then Not Entitled To Catholic Sacraments In Light Of The Fact That The Church Being Separate From The State Has The Right Who Can Get Communion. I Find A Middleground View In Orthodox Judaism. It Allows Abortion Only Under The Extreme Situations. Most Jewish Practices Do Not Interpret The Soul The Same Way As Catholics Or Eastern Orthodox, But Given Our Diverse Society, Their Rules Promote Restriction.

 

[Neolithic]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be?

Fewer dead babies, for one.

remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

Actually, most of the so-called “botched abortions” were done by doctors in their offices.

What I find interesting, though, is this idea that we should beware of criminalizing something because there might be unfortunate consequences. That really makes no sense to me, because if something is wrong - it’s wrong, regardless.

Abortion, in my opinion, is wrong. So, if there are any consequences, so be it.

 

[vera_dicere]

Firstly, I’m against the death pentalty so I wouldn’t support that option.

If a woman had an abortion, she should face the same punishment that is metred out for murder. So if its life imprisonment, then so be it!

As for the woman “not lifting a tool” the baby wouldn’t be dead if she hadn’t opened her legs and pulled down her pants to a butcher (legal or otherwise), I view her as having hired a “hitman” to do her dirty work, therefore, legally, she can face a murder charge if it is illegal.

As for the abortionist, I think they shoudl be the main target, give the woman a “lighter” sentence if she gives up the abortionist. I mean, people who get together and commit murder as a group, those who rat out the other or those not yet caught, often get a lighter sentence.

Anyone involved in pressuring the woman should be tried as accomplices, or again, as hiring a hit man.

Anyone who has sought out the abortionist for the woman, or pointed her in the direction of the abortionist should face the same punishment.

If the woman was truely pressured, and that can be proved - by social investigations and eye wittness accounts of the relationship between the woman and the pressurer, then the one who forced her should face the harsher sentence. Depending on the level of resent of the woman she her punishment should be metred accordingly.

IF the woman is mentally disabled or a minor, her punishment should be voided as she didn’t really “choose” the abortion.

Everyone who knew about the abortion or abortionist should be delt with as being acomplices after the fact and should face punishment equal with what is current in the law for those positions of criminal negligence.

If the woman was raped and is seeking an abortion, then perhaps she should be done for manslaughter or something lesser then actively purusing murder, or allowed a insanity defence.

If the woman is ill from pregnancy - which is very, VERY rare then it is unlikely to take place in the first trimester of pregnancy, and any good lead maternity carerer would pick that up and address the issues - maybe allow a legal allowance for such RARE instances if only to placate the idiots pro-choice to kill unborn children groups.

If the woman seeks abortion for a foetal abnormality then she should face murder charges.

THe law if it makes abortion illegal should ensure there are safety nets for women, the woman being forced, must have the ability to come to law enforcement and tell them - those trying to force an abortion must be charged with attempted murder or conspiracy to commit murder. The woman must be given help, financially, medically, mentally. If we’re truely to have any crediance with making abortion illegal, we must also make it undesirable and unnessceary. Full education about foetal development and the mess abortion can do to one’s mind and heart must be taught in all science and “sex ed” classes.

Also, I beleive under a law that bans abortion, all referances to abortion being legal or sought after must be removed from TV shows and movies - unless its a period peice set in the days of legal mur… ah… abortion. It must also show the consquences and must not glorify or welcome the act.

I also beleive there should be no statue of limitations on abortion.

If a woman has aborted a pregnancy and has other children, then said children must be removed for their own safety - and because she will go to jail.

Also, in regards to miscarriage or pursing women, women will not have to show up for monthly pregnancy tests. It must be decided by doctors who see her in the emergency departement or their office if there is something dodgey about the whole thing. It is usually pretty obviously if a woman has miscarriaged naturally or if she has interferred with her pregnancy. And the pelvic exam performed and scanns done post miscarriage will usually point out if there was something a bit suspsious going on.

Concurrently, miscarried children would not be given birth certificates as it jsut ends up being too much of a hassle. If the mother requests one, then by all means allow it.

If a woman shows up at ED with a septic or post termination of pregnancy with life threatening symptoms then she will be treated with intention of saving her life. Just as a murderer who shoots a cop will be. Once she is stable or discharged, she will face the law as is mentioned above.

 

[cmom]

" In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind…Second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians…Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist…So remember…abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians." This was written in 1960!
For 1972, the year before Roe, the federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reported 39 maternal deaths from illegal abortion."

So much for your myth of back alley abortions…

 

[FranciscanGemma]

i love the smell of hypocrisy in the evening…
first of all, you didnt quote that, you quoted me replying to how an abortion could be justified, and without going into specifics, because really, its none of your buisiness, said if there was a birth defect, or DEFORMITY, such as an EXTERNAL SPINE which would ensure the babys death, and risk the mothers during delivery. THAT is what YOU quoted, and responded with “So, you decide the quality of a persons life, huh?”…

so theres two possibilities here.

1. you need to try following your own advice, and make sure you know what youre quoting, know what youre talking about, and try to sound a little less like someone whos being rude because they didnt get a choice about having a kid after having premarital sex at 17.
   or
2. be nicer and quote correctly so people can understand YOU.

and i dont know if there even was a disease that caused my cousins fetus deformity, it just developed an external spine. oh, and just so you can understand me, that means the spine was on the outside, not the inside.

would you like her social security number or address or anything else?
you could at least say you think im lying and i can put you on ignore, bettering the boards for both of us.

How can you trivialize your cousin’s life like that? She was a devout woman (you mentioned her being a pastor’s wife). She obviously knew more about faith and God’s commandments than you do. We are all called to be like Jesus and if that calls for a mom to lay down her life for her child, even if the child doesn’t make it, and she chooses to, who are you to judge such things?
While you make an earnest case for abortion to save the mom, it’s rare time that these things occur and I’m sure you cousin and her child are now in Heaven praying that you open your heart to the Gospel of Life. She was a martyr for life in a different sense of martyrdom. God Bless her for her UNSELFISH nature!!!

 

[KestrelRose]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

You are assuming of course that all abortion clinics are run with the woman’s health and safety as priorities - and that there are no botched abortions in this money making industry.

With over 1.2 millions babies killed every year, I wonder what the percentage of botched abortions there are. I wonder about the emotional and physical scars of women as they are hustled out of the abortion clinic after handing over the money.

Besides that, there are botched murders taking place throughout the world. Perhaps we should provide a safe and sterile place for parents to kill their difficult children.

 

[BobCatholic]

right now, abortion is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing abortion once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? remember that “back street” abortions were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched abortion where the baby survived, but was badly harmed, but that the mothers were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these women and babies would come to if abortion was outlawed once again?

The answer is the same if the question were:

Date: 1860
right now, slavery is legal, but it hasnt been legal forever. if you were to have your way, criminalizing slavery once more, what do you think the ramifications would be? remember that “back street” slave trades were quite abundant back in the day, and that not only could they result in a botched enslavement where the slave survived, but was badly harmed, but that the slaves were often severely injured, or even died due to them. knowing that something being illegal doesnt stop it from happening, are you okay with the harm these slaves would come to if slavery was outlawed once again?

The only thing I did was change the victims.