A question for the Orthodox

[SavedbyHisBlood]

Hello all

I was wondering, for those of you who are Orthodox, do you believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? If not why not?

 

[WetCatechumen]

Orthodox Christians believe that Christ becomes present on the altar at the moment of the epiclesis of the Eucharistic prayer. How and in what manner? It is a mystery, and while they do not use the term transubstantiation, their view is consistent with and functionally identical to the Catholic belief.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not to sound rude here, but you could easily get an answer to this question with a quick Google search, Wikipedia, or looking in the CAF archives. The Orthodox deeply believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[DavidKays]

Hi! I am Greek Orthodox and even though you have receive an answer correctly from the previous posters I will like to answer since I am Orthodox and you can understand us better and see that sacramently our Churches are basically the same. Basically both our Churches Catholic and Orthodox have the same Sacraments because both Churches have Apostolic Foundation with our Bishops been the successors of the original 12 Apostles. Peter is the main Apostle for the Church of Rome while the rest founded in large part the Eastern Church. This was God’s way to ensure that the Apostolic College is still in existence today with His Holiness Benedict XVI in Rome and the Eastern bishops living in the East. Both Churches guided by the same Holy Spirit established all the Sacraments that both Churches celebrate and today continue to do so. All that is required for a Church to possess true Sacraments is their Apostolic foundation meaning their Bishops and priests have a connection to the founding original Apostles. The Eastern Orthodox do possess all the requirements to celebrate all the sacraments so their Eucharist which is commonly called The Divine Liturgy has the same power and distinction as their Catholic brothers have in the West. We do believe in the change because our Priests have valid Apostolic Orders from their Bishops and therefore the Lord Jesus is Present as Real as He is on the Catholic Altar. We even have Tabernacles so as to Reserve this great Sacrament on the Altar like they do in the Catholic Church. The teaching of the Eucharist is the same for both East and West as are all the sacraments. While Catholics tend to use different terminology than their Eastern brothers when talking about the Change made during the Eucharistic Sacrifice both Churches do teach the Same Real Presence. Orthodox tend not to explain the nature of the Change as they do in the West. As one Eastern Father wrote " there is too much of a mystery to explain how the Change was made. We leave that up to God. For us it is enough to know it is The Holy Spirit which accomplishes this. For the same Holy Spirit which incarnates the Lord Jesus in the womb of The Blessed Mother of God is the same Holy Spirit which incarnates the species of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ ". I hope this will help you better understand the East and the Common Witness we have in Our Lord Jesus Christ.God Bless!

 

[crazzeto]

It would be quite the affront for any Christian to call them selves “Orthodox” and not beleive in the real presense. The Eastern Church and Western Church may have many disagreements, but on nothing quite that fundamental… Heck at this point the Eccumenical Patriarch of the GOC has stated the only major disagreement we have is the Papal Doctrine.

 

[Non_Serviam]

I would be curious as to whether there are many “cafeteria Orthodox” (for lack of a better term) who like some “cafeteria Catholics” don’t actually believe in the real presence. Some polls suggest this is quite common in Catholicism-would it also be common in Orthodoxy?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What about the different views on Original Sin, purgatory, indulgences, the filioque, conciliarism, etc.?

It would be quite the affront for any Christian to call them selves “Orthodox” and not beleive in the real presense. The Eastern Church and Western Church may have many disagreements, but on nothing quite that fundamental… Heck at this point the Eccumenical Patriarch of the GOC has stated the only major disagreement we have is the Papal Doctrine.

 

[SavedbyHisBlood]

Hi! I am Greek Orthodox and even though you have receive an answer correctly from the previous posters I will like to answer since I am Orthodox and you can understand us better and see that sacramently our Churches are basically the same. Basically both our Churches Catholic and Orthodox have the same Sacraments because both Churches have Apostolic Foundation with our Bishops been the successors of the original 12 Apostles. Peter is the main Apostle for the Church of Rome while the rest founded in large part the Eastern Church. This was God’s way to ensure that the Apostolic College is still in existence today with His Holiness Benedict XVI in Rome and the Eastern bishops living in the East. Both Churches guided by the same Holy Spirit established all the Sacraments that both Churches celebrate and today continue to do so. All that is required for a Church to possess true Sacraments is their Apostolic foundation meaning their Bishops and priests have a connection to the founding original Apostles. The Eastern Orthodox do possess all the requirements to celebrate all the sacraments so their Eucharist which is commonly called The Divine Liturgy has the same power and distinction as their Catholic brothers have in the West. We do believe in the change because our Priests have valid Apostolic Orders from their Bishops and therefore the Lord Jesus is Present as Real as He is on the Catholic Altar. We even have Tabernacles so as to Reserve this great Sacrament on the Altar like they do in the Catholic Church. The teaching of the Eucharist is the same for both East and West as are all the sacraments. While Catholics tend to use different terminology than their Eastern brothers when talking about the Change made during the Eucharistic Sacrifice both Churches do teach the Same Real Presence. Orthodox tend not to explain the nature of the Change as they do in the West. As one Eastern Father wrote " there is too much of a mystery to explain how the Change was made. We leave that up to God. For us it is enough to know it is The Holy Spirit which accomplishes this. For the same Holy Spirit which incarnates the Lord Jesus in the womb of The Blessed Mother of God is the same Holy Spirit which incarnates the species of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ ". I hope this will help you better understand the East and the Common Witness we have in Our Lord Jesus Christ.God Bless!

Excellent and in depth answer!! Thank you I was just curious

 

[crazzeto]

What about the different views on Original Sin, purgatory, indulgences, the filioque, conciliarism, etc.?

Apparently at least the GOC and CC are at peace on about everything but the Pope… Honestly the more you look into Eastern beliefs, and really meditate upon them, you find they’re not so far different from us as their Apologists would have you believe.

For instance Claim:
“We don’t believe in Purgatory”…

Reality:
Turns out life after death isn’t doctrinal in their church… One of the most popular current belief systems is that the gates of heaven wont’ be opened up until after the last day (first day after the last day?). In the mean time, all souls still go to Sheoul (spelling, sorry), either to the boozom of Abraham or to Gehenna… A soul can go to Gehenna, and be tourtured in flames and then on the last judgment sent to heaven…

Hmmmm, while we Catholics can’t hold to that specific belief system… Doesn’t this come of as being shockingly like purgatory? Hmmmm

“We don’t believe in indulgences”

Reality:
Many of their traditions, upon which they form their beliefs are built upon apparent locutions where an individual was shown a soul they loved suffering in flames. The living person proceeded to self mortify, and he was shown a new locution of the person in less torment, this continued two more times and the person was finally shown in paradice.

What does that sound like?

 

[Nine_Two]

I would be curious as to whether there are many “cafeteria Orthodox” (for lack of a better term) who like some “cafeteria Catholics” don’t actually believe in the real presence. Some polls suggest this is quite common in Catholicism-would it also be common in Orthodoxy?

While their probably are Orthodox who might secretely hold to such a belief, Orthodox priests tend to be a bit stricter, and if they know that someone does not agree with a basic tenant of the faith, they will be denied the Eucharist. So no, no one openly holds this belief. What is on the hearts of individuals, however, only God knows.

 

[Nine_Two]

Apparently at least the GOC and CC are at peace on about everything but the Pope… Honestly the more you look into Eastern beliefs, and really meditate upon them, you find they’re not so far different from us as their Apologists would have you believe.

For instance Claim:
“We don’t believe in Purgatory”…

Reality:
Turns out life after death isn’t doctrinal in their church… One of the most popular current belief systems is that the gates of heaven wont’ be opened up until after the last day (first day after the last day?). In the mean time, all souls still go to Sheoul (spelling, sorry), either to the boozom of Abraham or to Gehenna… A soul can go to Gehenna, and be tourtured in flames and then on the last judgment sent to heaven…

Hmmmm, while we Catholics can’t hold to that specific belief system… Doesn’t this come of as being shockingly like purgatory? Hmmmm

“We don’t believe in indulgences”

Reality:
Many of their traditions, upon which they form their beliefs are built upon apparent locutions where an individual was shown a soul they loved suffering in flames. The living person proceeded to self mortify, and he was shown a new locution of the person in less torment, this continued two more times and the person was finally shown in paradice.

What does that sound like?

While the Orthodox have a number of concepts “like purgatory”, it is the specific vision which the Catholic Church made into doctrine that the Orthodox do not accept. This is normally the case when such things arise. We don’t believe you are necessarily wrong, we just don’t accept that you are certainly right.

The same goes for indulgences, however I would further say that such belief as you post is rather rare. We also don’t agree with a central part of the Catholic idea of indulgences, which is the deposit of Good Works which the Church can give out to lessen suffering.

 

[Mickey]

While the Orthodox have a number of concepts “like purgatory”, it is the specific vision which the Catholic Church made into doctrine that the Orthodox do not accept. This is normally the case when such things arise. We don’t believe you are necessarily wrong, we just don’t accept that you are certainly right.

Yeah…if there were a reunion…purgatory would be the least of worries. Supreme Papal Infallibility would be the main obstacle.

 

[Non_Serviam]

While their probably are Orthodox who might secretely hold to such a belief, Orthodox priests tend to be a bit stricter, and if they know that someone does not agree with a basic tenant of the faith, they will be denied the Eucharist. So no, no one openly holds this belief. What is on the hearts of individuals, however, only God knows.

Thanks for the reply-one often hears of “cafeteria Catholics” on here, it made me curious as to whether there was a similar Orthodox phenomenon.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can just imagine the negotiation…

“Now we’ll accept your filioque if you accept the supremacy of the Holy Father”

“Are you kiddin’ me? The filioque for the Pope? No dice, gentlemen. The filoque is nowhere near as high on the ledger as papal supremacy…we want more”

“Ok, papal supremacy but no infallibility”

“well that’s a start…keep uh talkin’”

“You accept purgatory, our version of Original Sin, indulgences, and penances and we allow you to keep leavened bread, long beards, no pews, and we swear not to PC-up your parishes with Spanish language missals!”

“thanks a lot, very funny, sorry gentlemen, our business here in concluded…”

'ok ok ok…Infallibility is totally out, indulgences are out, no stations of the cross, and we’ll all start growing beards and wear those Fez-looking weird black things on our heads instead of mitres!"

“We’re listening…”

“Come on, you guys need to give up something here so we can strike up a deal”

“Take all the imprimaturs off Tim Staples and Scott Hahn. They annoy us.”

“done”

“and we don’t give you a cent for these molestation lawsuits”

“no problem”

“And you guys drop the Novus Ordo boloney. No more of the koomaya nonsense”

“You must be kidding.”

“ok, ok, you guys keep the strumming guitars and Protestant-style music but no more holding hands during Pater Nosters and no more communion in the hand or extraordinary ministers!”

“Done!”

After business was concluded the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church officially rejoined for the first time since 1054 AD…

Yeah…if there were a reunion…purgatory would be the least of worries. Supreme Papal Infallibility would be the main obstacle.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I can just imagine the negotiation…

“Now we’ll accept your filioque if you accept the supremacy of the Holy Father”

“Are you kiddin’ me? The filioque for the Pope? No dice, gentlemen. The filoque is nowhere near as high on the ledger as papal supremacy…we want more”

“Ok, papal supremacy but no infallibility”

“well that’s a start…keep uh talkin’”

“You accept purgatory, our version of Original Sin, indulgences, and penances and we allow you to keep leavened bread, long beards, no pews, and we swear not to PC-up your parishes with Spanish language missals!”

“thanks a lot, very funny, sorry gentlemen, our business here in concluded…”

'ok ok ok…Infallibility is totally out, indulgences are out, no stations of the cross, and we’ll all start growing beards and wear those Fez-looking weird black things on our heads instead of mitres!"

“We’re listening…”

“Come on, you guys need to give up something here so we can strike up a deal”

“Take all the imprimaturs off Tim Staples and Scott Hahn. They annoy us.”

“done”

“and we don’t give you a cent for these molestation lawsuits”

“no problem”

“And you guys drop the Novus Ordo boloney. No more of the koomaya nonsense”

“You must be kidding.”

“ok, ok, you guys keep the strumming guitars and Protestant-style music but no more holding hands during Pater Nosters and no more communion in the hand or extraordinary ministers!”

“Done!”

After business was concluded the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church officially rejoined for the first time since 1054 AD…

LOL…

It never ceases to amaze me, however, as an outsider looking in, how posters on the forum continue to try to minimize the differences between Rome and Orthodoxy. Are they more similar than Rome and Protestantism? Probably, at least inasmuch as apostolic succession, the sacraments, etc go. That doesn’t mean that they are, otherwise, even near each other in overall theological and dogmatic outlooks.

 

[Hesychios]

LOL…

It never ceases to amaze me, however, as an outsider looking in, how posters on the forum continue to try to minimize the differences between Rome and Orthodoxy.

It seems to me (I hate to generalize, but … ) some Latin Catholics are motivated to portray Orthodox beliefs as close enough to their own to serve as an endorsement and support for their own. I don’t know for sure but they may feel this will help them in discussions with Protestants.

Then of course, Orthodox protest that the differences sometimes appear subtle, but are really too significant to be casually dismissed.

Eventually we Orthodox are charged with the great mother of sins pridefulness. A condition which will magically go away if we submit to the supreme Pontiff and endorse Latin Catholic dogmatic developments.

 

[Reuben_J]

LOL…

It never ceases to amaze me, however, as an outsider looking in, how posters on the forum continue to try to minimize the differences between Rome and Orthodoxy. Are they more similar than Rome and Protestantism? Probably, at least inasmuch as apostolic succession, the sacraments, etc go. That doesn’t mean that they are, otherwise, even near each other in overall theological and dogmatic outlooks.

Protestants are tough adversaries; we need the Orthodox to bolster our case. They don’t really need us because this is not their forum but one always expect some returns for favors given, so they are here and do some bits of proselytizing of their own. All’s fair …

BTW we need the Lutherans to go against those Baptists. Except we have to figure out some concessions for you guys.

We need the LDS to face the Muslims … .

 

[WetCatechumen]

It seems to me (I hate to generalize, but … ) some Latin Catholics are motivated to portray Orthodox beliefs as close enough to their own to serve as an endorsement and support for their own. I don’t know for sure but they may feel this will help them in discussions with Protestants.

Then of course, Orthodox protest that the differences sometimes appear subtle, but are really too significant to be casually dismissed.

Eventually we Orthodox are charged with the great mother of sins pridefulness. A condition which will magically go away if we submit to the supreme Pontiff and endorse Latin Catholic dogmatic developments.

Absolutely true!

Very soon your pride will diminish, and in as little as six months, our churches will be one. We believe all the same things, and there is nothing separating us. Your unity among the Orthodox will only grow when you accept the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.



Yeah, what you say is true. To generalize on the flip-side, I think that some Orthodox exaggerate the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. We Catholics have to acknowledge that our dogmatic developments have changed to the point of making them very unpalatable to Eastern thinking. Catholics tend to gloss over and say, “Oh! They believe in toll houses and we believe in Purgatory. Same thing.”

But when Orthodox say that Catholics believe something else with regards to the Eucharist because of transubstantiation, I feel like they’re inventing a separation that doesn’t exist. You can argue azymes/epiclesis/accidents all you want, but we both believe that Christ is physically present in the Eucharist and that the bread and wine are transformed into his body and blood. There’s no real disconnect.

On things like the Filioque, Purgatory, and Roman Primacy, there are sometimes real disagreements that Latins like to pretend don’t exist because of our eagerness for reunion.

Unfortunately, though, I have to say, I have not encountered the same eagerness for reunion in the Orthodox I have met. Orthodox typically want Catholics to renounce the Latin theological tradition and praxis (which comes from the first millennium) along with the alleged heresies of the second millennium. Catholics are generally willing to compromise, e.g., Orthodox teaching on life after death is compatible with the dogmatic formulation of Purgatory, but Orthodox are more likely to call the dogmatic formulation of Purgatory a heresy that must be renounced.

The American Catholics I have known are eager for communion with the Eastern churches. I’m not sure why. However, this eagerness does tend to make them gloss over the differences and ignore actual issues. All too true.

 

[dcointin]

I’m new to these forums, so I’d like to introduce myself. I’m Orthodox, and converted from Lutheranism about 5 years ago, and live in the St. Louis area.

I think you could emphasize either the similarities or the differences depending on your perspective. The reason for this is that although they share most dogmas, their worldviews are very different, western vs eastern. In my experience with Orthodox priests they tend to emphasize the differences, and I think that’s because most people have no familiarity with the Orthodox and tend to assume that they’re Catholic. Before my parish had a full-time priest we had different priests serving us, and I remember one talk that one gave while we had a Catholic visitor. He was absolutely emphatic on the differences, and commented that he wore a beard and cassock so that he couldn’t be mistaken for a Catholic priest. We never saw that visitor again, and I’m sure his hostile attitude had something to do with it. Personally, when I describe Orthodoxy to someone that’s unfamiliar with it I start with Catholicism as a faith that most people are familiar with, then start to describe the specific differences, and I’ve found that to be effective. I actually had this very discussion with my girlfriend who’s Catholic just a few days ago

 

[Mickey]

I can just imagine the negotiation…

“Now we’ll accept your filioque if you accept the supremacy of the Holy Father”

“Are you kiddin’ me? The filioque for the Pope? No dice, gentlemen. The filoque is nowhere near as high on the ledger as papal supremacy…we want more”

“Ok, papal supremacy but no infallibility”

“well that’s a start…keep uh talkin’”

“You accept purgatory, our version of Original Sin, indulgences, and penances and we allow you to keep leavened bread, long beards, no pews, and we swear not to PC-up your parishes with Spanish language missals!”

“thanks a lot, very funny, sorry gentlemen, our business here in concluded…”

'ok ok ok…Infallibility is totally out, indulgences are out, no stations of the cross, and we’ll all start growing beards and wear those Fez-looking weird black things on our heads instead of mitres!"

“We’re listening…”

“Come on, you guys need to give up something here so we can strike up a deal”

“Take all the imprimaturs off Tim Staples and Scott Hahn. They annoy us.”

“done”

“and we don’t give you a cent for these molestation lawsuits”

“no problem”

“And you guys drop the Novus Ordo boloney. No more of the koomaya nonsense”

“You must be kidding.”

“ok, ok, you guys keep the strumming guitars and Protestant-style music but no more holding hands during Pater Nosters and no more communion in the hand or extraordinary ministers!”

“Done!”

After business was concluded the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church officially rejoined for the first time since 1054 AD…

You missed your calling as a stand up comedian!