A question for those who were raised Catholic

[Matorin]

I was brainwashed to respect women, not to use violence to solve conflict, to not take things that didn’t belonged to me, to love without requirements, to enjoy learning, to be respectful to others regardless of their age or class, and the proper management of money. Those darn parents, brainwashin’ me

Brainwashed is a poorly chosen phrase, it is not a fair term because it has an automatic negative connotation to it.

 

[PAboy57]

Dear Joan of Bark,

I was a cradle Catholic that drifted for almost 30 years. I have seen most of it and lived poorly without God in my life. I had success and didn’t enjoy it, I could not fill some void in my life.

When the time is right you will open your heart and mind and answer the door in which Jesus knocks. For right now you think you have all the answers. Someday you will come around and seek God. I really hope so for your sake.

When I got to that point I ripped the door off the hinges and invited Jesus and the entire Communion of Saints into my home. I will pray, beg and cry or whatever I have to do each day to keep them in my heart and soul for the rest of my life. I feel much better with God than without Him.

When you decide there will be plenty of good people here that will be willing to share Jesus with you and help along your way.

In the meantime may God Bless you and open your heart soon. Good luck.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Once more I hear you yet you miss the mark. Catholic Moms and Dads who live the faith like all moms and dads won’t whats best for their kids. Just like you would not take your kid to a wich doc as well as someone trained in western medicine and say you decide.

I would say almost all of us here are Catholic because we have thought long and hard about it. Hope that helps.

So you have no problem with Muslim mom’s and dad’s making sure their children grow up as Muslims? Or Jewish parents making sure their children are practicing Jews? Or Jehovah’s Witnessess indoctrinating their children into the JW faith? Because they just want what’s best for their children, right?

And I’m sure Muslims, Jews, JW’s, Hindus, etc. would all claim they too have thought long and hard about it, and come to the conclusion that theirs is the correct belief system, and everyone else’s is wrong.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

I promise I’ll get around to answering the other posts on this thread, but right now I’m on a very slow internet connection and I have to get back to work.

Please stay tuned.

 

[Peter_Gabriel]

So you have no problem with Muslim mom’s and dad’s making sure their children grow up as Muslims? Or Jewish parents making sure their children are practicing Jews? Or Jehovah’s Witnessess indoctrinating their children into the JW faith? Because they just want what’s best for their children, right?

And I’m sure Muslims, Jews, JW’s, Hindus, etc. would all claim they too have thought long and hard about it, and come to the conclusion that theirs is the correct belief system, and everyone else’s is wrong.

I wasn’t raised Catholic so I don’t know if I am welcome to answer this, but anyway. I think this whole idea of whatever you are trying to get at is pointless. Any parent ultimately indoctrinates(or attempts to) their children with their worldview. Even an agnostic teaches their children their ideas, what else would they teach them, something they didn’t believe? I can’t speak for anyone else, and this wasn’t directed at me, but I wouldn’t expect a JW or a Muslim to raise their children as anything other than a JW or a Muslim - it would actually be inconsistent and absurd of them not to. I was raised protestant and believed for the most part what I was taught. I am glad I was raised with my parents beliefs as it forced me to be more responsible about choosing to convert. I think there is a misconception here too, maybe in some cases this is true, but I don’t think most religious people raise their children without giving them some idea (at least to the best of their knowledge) about what other people believe. It is almost necessary to do this, just to understand ones own beliefs.

Most people believe what they believe, why should we expect them to act like they don’t? If a Muslim is right, everyone who is not Muslim is wrong. So what. I don’t expect a Muslim or a non-religious person to profess Catholicism - obviously.

You asked a peculiar question in your first post.

Consider the fact that children raised in Saudi Arabia become … Muslims. Those raised in most of India become Hindus. Children raised by practicing Jews in Israel tend to become practicing Jews. And kids raised by evangelical Protestants usually turn out to be Protestants. Why do you suppose this is? Do you believe that upon becoming free-willed adults they carefully consider all religious creeds and come to the conclusion that (fill in the blank) is really the best and truest religion?

The last part is interesting, if we believe that when they become free-willed adults will they carefully consider which religion is true. The thing is, it doesn’t matter what we believe they will do - the truth is they ought to do it. Every person is responsible to thoughtfully consider these things to the best they are able, regardless of how they were raised. You would probably be right if you said most people don’t, but that only makes them guilty of negligence, it doesn’t free them of that responsibility.

 

[WesleyF]

I was raised Catholic and raised well at that. My father and mother both lived good Catholic lives. But in my case, I wouldn’t say I was brainwashed. For me, it was the power of the Christian faith that convinced me Christianity was true (not Catholicism only, but Christianity in general; although I knew very little about Christianity other than Catholicism).

I have seen people being touched by the power of God, lives transformed, exorcisms performed, miracles take place, etc.

If it had not been for these, then I would have probably become an atheist. No other religion even claimed to do these kinds of signs. When was the last time you heard that a lame person was healed in a Muslim prayer service, or a blind person being healed in a Hindu prayer service, or a demon being driven out of one in a Buddhist prayer service. I haven’t even heard of a single such occurence.

However, in the kind of Christianity that I encountered, such miracles abounded.

So I was convinced that Christianity was true. After all, if God was there in that religion, then he must do something!!

Later on, after a lot of study, I found Catholicism to be the fulness of Christianity. The arguments for Catholicism were more compelling than the arguments for any other denomination.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Have you ever considered that you may have been brainwashed by secular society?

Of course. I question everything I’ve been told by society. I’m naturally skeptical that way.

However, I was not raised in a secular society. I was raised Baptist in England in the '60’s. Everyone I knew believed in God. I went to church every Sunday. My school, although not a religious institution, forced us to pray at assembly and our teachers often taught Christianity. It was only after moving to Canada as a twelve-year-old that I started to have doubts, and passed through the stages from believer to doubter, to skeptic, to agnostic and eventually, in my 20’s, to atheism. And the more I study religion, the more convinced I am of my current beliefs (and yes, I have read the Bible – many times).

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Plain and simple…this is just a ‘silly question’.

Why?

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Why do you ask this question? Are you trying to turn people away from their “brainwashing” parents? Did you have an issue with your parents so that you don’t trust them and you want to warn the rest of us that our parent’s don’t have our best interest at heart?

I’m asking this question to see if those who were raised Catholic ever have doubts about why they’re Catholic.

And no, I don’t have any major issues with my parents … although I disagree with them on many things.

And why do you focus on religion? Why not on any of the thousands of other influences our parents have on us. Things as mundane as the food we eat and the clothes we wear to the people they associate with…

Because this is a Catholic discussion board. If I was posting on a fashion board, I would ask about fashion …

Do you really advocate that our parents give no guidance whatsoever, simply presenting everything as an option? Aren’t they our first and primary teachers. And aren’t they the people most likely to have our best interest at heart…

So you have no problem with parents raising their children to be Muslims, or Hindus, or Mormons? You don’t believe those children are being indoctrinated? You know those parents have their children’s best interests at heart, and you wouldn’t try to convert them to Catholicism, because that would imply those parents raised their children incorrectly? You would defend Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Baptists, JW’s, etc. just as adamently as you defend Catholics?

 

[antroji]

It seems to me that though Joan of Bark (great handle!) used what for many is an emotionally loaded word, she brings up an important point. That point is the question of habituation by osmosis. (Yes, you might have used a less emotional and more accurate word, Joan. Brainwashing implies forcible mental change in someone who already has a particular mindset. Might you be flavored with a bit of anger?) It is, as well, a point that anyone conducting a sincere interior survey would naturally question about, I would think, as a point of epistemology/cosmology. Apparently many on here have similar considerations. Wow. Joan has a brain.

That means that habituated answers won’t wash in her case, I would suspect, not if she is honest with herself and our replies. And she is right. Does anyone out there in forum land have a clear grasp of any non-Christian religion or philosophy, or any understanding of the dynamics of self-inquiry, witnessing, linguistics, study of the Bible as literature/history, comparative religions/philosophies, boolean logic as applied to language, history of the Church from both Faith and secular viewpoints, theories of meaning, translation, communication, phenomenology, the nature of collections, abstracting, process, uniqueness, general semantics, critical thinking, emotional loading, etc, etc. Would we put our children through such courses so they could decide for themselves? Hmmmm. If they are lucky, lol! Even if they won catechism contests.

But those are a few areas of considerations and disciplines that I can think of offhand that would apply to a sincere study of what the other 2/3+ of the world, from the non-dualists to the cargo cultists consider to be valid, at least, if not true world views. They would apply equally as well to any belief system, social, secular, scientific, cultural, political, or whatever, not just religious. If we don’t do what Joan is doing, I feel we hazzard being remiss in our examinations of conscience, which, after all, means “with knowing.”

And please, that is not a criticism or slam on the Church; it is not. It is in support of looking at where we come from, how, and why. Anyone who espouses what they believe just because they grew up that way might be diminishing their appreciation of what they claim to stand for. You say you thought long and hard about being a Catholic? You think other folks, from other beliefs, even atheists, don’t? Are we completely and consciously aware of what filters and assumptions we incorporate in our thinking? Do we know that there are about 100 common fallacies in thinking that are rampant in everyday speech, the media, conversations, etc? And that doesn’t include the tendency of the human mind to try to make itslef right in its current possition at almost any cost. Why do we think it often takes a shock to get people out of a rut?

Naturally, as we grow up in a family, we socialize to that bit of culture. That is good. We increase our chance of survival that way! Some of us stay there mentally, wherever/whenever we were born, and others–one way or another–“get” that there is a bigger world than our block and our neighbors and Fox news. Consider the deep field photos from the Hubble. Knowing another language and traveling get us over some of that pretty soon as well, unless we are thick.

Wherever you end up, Joan, as a Catholic or whatever, I would point to you as someone who at least honestly earned where they arrived, instead of being there by default–default of lack of inquiry. Kudos, and if you end up honestly here in the Church, you will be that much stronger. And IMHO, you won’t go to hell for being honest and diligent. Au contrair.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Have you ever considered that you may have been brainwashed?

Kind of an insulting question, isn’t it?

Consider the fact that children raised in Saudi Arabia become … Muslims. Those raised in most of India become Hindus. Children raised by practicing Jews in Israel tend to become practicing Jews. And kids raised by evangelical Protestants usually turn out to be Protestants. Why do you suppose this is? Do you believe that upon becoming free-willed adults they carefully consider all religious creeds and come to the conclusion that (fill in the blank) is really the best and truest religion?

Of course not. We can see that they’ve merely been indoctrinated into their religious creed without the benefit of a balanced exposure to other religions. So are you really any different?

Now you may have been raised in the west, where a more pluralistic society prevails. Certainly while growing up you would have encountered other religious sects. But is a child who goes to a Catholic school five days a week, and to mass every week, and has Catholic parents and relatives, really any different than a Saudi Muslim – except in the degree of the indoctrination?

Look at it another way. If you had children, would you take them to a Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque, a Protestant church, and a Hindu temple – as well as a Catholic church – and say to them: “Okay, my child, it’s now up to you to decide which of these religions – if any – is the true one”?

If you answer ‘no’ to this question, perhaps you can begin to see where the question at the top of this post comes from.

What point are you trying to get at?

 

[antroji]

@TheQuestioner: “Think, Arthur; THINK!”

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Let me put it this way sir, consider this: All parents have a different style of discipline, If you live in East Asia, most parents will raise you upon a very Confucian style, so is the system of family model will assemble with the Confucian style. If you live in the old Soviet Union, parents will raise you in “the way the government want you to be”…, then why can’t Christian parents raise their children with Christian price and Christian value?

If you’re inferring that I believe that Christian parents shouldn’t be allowed to raise their children the way they want, well, that’s certainly not what I implied. I was asking a different question: is there really any difference between raising a child to be a Catholic or raising them to be of any other faith or religion? Do you believe that a child born and raised Muslim has really accepted Islam purely by choice? Can you be sure you have accepted the Catholic church by choice, or were you indoctrinated into it at an impressionable age?

I don’t see how it could be brainwashing, if we use the term brainwash like you, then I could also say that I had been brainwashed by American society or brainwashed by democracy…, if I’m Richard Dawkins’ son, I would say that he would “brainwashes” me to become an atheist, again, what guarantee you that Atheist and Agnostic parents don’t “brainwashes” their children?

Certainly if Richard Dawkins’ son was raised to be atheist, without any exposure to religion, he would have been indoctrinated, and I would question whether they are truly his beliefs, or simply his father’s. That being said, it is much more difficult to isolate a child from religious beliefs than it is to isolate them from atheism. After all, the majority of people in the Americas, Australia, and the UK believe in God. In America, God is in the Oath of Allegiance and printed on the money. Every US president since Carter has waved his belief around in his election campaign. They certainly don’t do that to lose votes! To not be exposed to Christianity while living in the west is damned near impossible.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Nice! The OP is so quick to pick on the religious when really any idea, if you take a hold of it, will certainly influence you or should I say “brain wash.” The OP is just begging the question. People are free to drop their religious beliefs or keep them. Good parents can have bad children…same with religious parents having atheist children. Actually come here with a question that makes sense!

Read my previous post to see my response to this point.

While you’re at it, answer one of the questions from my OP. Do you believe a child raised in Islam, orthodox Judaism, or any other religious belief system, has voluntarily accepted his or her beliefs? Do you not see an element of coercion at work?

 

[JRRTFAN]

Have you ever considered that you may have been brainwashed?

Now you may have been raised in the west, where a more pluralistic society prevails. Certainly while growing up you would have encountered other religious sects. But is a child who goes to a Catholic school five days a week, and to mass every week, and has Catholic parents and relatives, really any different than a Saudi Muslim – except in the degree of the indoctrination?

Well, to answer the question: “really any different than a Saudi Muslim --” In my limited view, most little Catholic kiddies don’t want to finance terrorism or chop non-Catholic heads off because they’re non-Catholics. Have you found a different scanario in your town?

Further, I don’t think you have much to fear in this regard, the state of catechesis in most Catholic schools is so abysmal that it couldn’t convince anyone of anything.

If one is an Evangelical and you tell them “Baptism now saves you.” you will be greated by a firm denial that Baptism does anything. But that’s not what the Bible says. Is the Evangelical brainwashed?

 

[Shellac]

So you have no problem with Muslim mom’s and dad’s making sure their children grow up as Muslims? Or Jewish parents making sure their children are practicing Jews? Or Jehovah’s Witnessess indoctrinating their children into the JW faith? Because they just want what’s best for their children, right?

And I’m sure Muslims, Jews, JW’s, Hindus, etc. would all claim they too have thought long and hard about it, and come to the conclusion that theirs is the correct belief system, and everyone else’s is wrong.

I think it would be closer to the truth to say I understand moms and dads raising the kids they have with the faith tradition that have. Yet I would have problems with the faith they are taught.

“And I’m sure Muslims, Jews, JW’s, Hindus, etc. would all claim they too have thought long and hard about it, and come to the conclusion that theirs is the correct belief system, and everyone else’s is wrong” Joan of Bark

Maybe. Yet I would guess you seem to think there is no correct belief.

 

[JustaServant]

Have you ever considered that you may have been brainwashed?

You obviously have a limited view of psychology.
The human brain is a very complicated machine and cannot be as easily manipulated as you imply. The question stems from the opinion that those who are ‘brainwashed’ have low IQs. IOW, it’s a question based on a sterotype painted in your own mind. To which I ask:
Have you ever considered that you are not as superior as your question implies.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

NOPE! I was raised Catholic…spent 20+ years in a few different Protestant religions. I’ve come back to Holy Mother church and LOVE it!

One brother…brought up Catholic…now foursquare

Other brother…brought up Catholic…left for aethism…now is a semi-practicing Catholic (I’m working on him). But he came back to the Church before I did.

So–explain that! If we were all brainwashed would we all not have stayed Catholic?

Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say everyone was brainwashed. I merely asked if you ever thought you might be … and if you see any difference between your situation and that of a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, JW, etc.

 

[JustaServant]

*Just to add a bit more. While most psychologists believe that brainwashing is possible under the right conditions (imprisonment, torture), some see it as improbable or at least as a less severe form of influence than the media portrays it to be. Some definitions of brainwashing require the presence of the threat of physical harm, and under these definitions most extremist cults do not practice true brainwashing since they typically do not physically abuse recruits. Other definitions rely on “nonphysical coercion and control” as an equally effective means of asserting influence. Regardless of which definition you use, many experts believe that even under ideal brainwashing conditions, the effects of the process are most often short-term – the brainwashing victim’s old identity is not in fact eradicated by the process, but instead is in hiding, and once the “new identity” stops being reinforced the person’s old attitudes and beliefs will start to return.
IOW, you are ‘Barking’ up the wrong tree.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

If you’re inferring that I believe that Christian parents shouldn’t be allowed to raise their children the way they want, well, that’s certainly not what I implied. I was asking a different question: is there really any difference between raising a child to be a Catholic or raising them to be of any other faith or religion? Do you believe that a child born and raised Muslim has really accepted Islam purely by choice? Can you be sure you have accepted the Catholic church by choice, or were you indoctrinated into it at an impressionable age?

Certainly if Richard Dawkins’ son was raised to be atheist, without any exposure to religion, he would have been indoctrinated, and I would question whether they are truly his beliefs, or simply his father’s. That being said, it is much more difficult to isolate a child from religious beliefs than it is to isolate them from atheism. After all, the majority of people in the Americas, Australia, and the UK believe in God. In America, God is in the Oath of Allegiance and printed on the money. Every US president since Carter has waved his belief around in his election campaign. They certainly don’t do that to lose votes! To not be exposed to Christianity while living in the west is damned near impossible.

What about you? Don’t you think that each of us are all “brainwashed” by this society? People tell us that sex outside of marriage is good as long as you have a condom, and every religions has truth. We pretty much are being brainwashed by humanism and secularism itself, don’t you think? And no, I chose to become a Catholic, I was a Protestant but now I’m a Catholic, it seem to be that my parents had failed to “brainwashed” me didn’t they?

Just because someone is called a child doesn’t mean he/she is not interested in religion, who said that? Plus, don’t you think when the child come to the age of consent, he/she can’t choose? Remember, America is not Saudi Arabia, we have freedom of religion.