A question for those who were raised Catholic

[Joan_of_Bark]

Question for you, Joan: If you have kids (or if you will in the future) would you let them choose their own names?

What is more “personal” to us than our first names? We often come to identify with them so closely that they become the one word which is capable of describing us to the fullest. Yet we have zero choice about them while we are children.

Funny you should ask that. I currently live in Thailand, a country in which the natives all have nicknames (some of them quite strange to a westerner). They are given to a child at birth because of an old tradition that says that demons try to get to babies because of their innocence. By referring to the child by a nickname, the demon won’t know the real name and cannot attack the baby (shades of ancient Judaism and other religions, where knowing a person’s real name can give you power over them). Anyway, children here sometimes change their nicknames for what I imagine are a variety of reasons. Nobody minds.

If I had a child who wanted to change their name, hey, no problem. Now I would point out to them some of the ramifications, like having legal hassles. I’d certainly try to steer them away from a silly name, by pointing out how they may be treated, but if they insist, sure, why not? If it ends up as a mistake, they’ll learn from it, and they can always change it again.

I think I understand what you’re driving at, though. You’re thinking that it’s natural for parents to choose their child’s religion, and that’s that. The kid gets no say in the matter. But do you not see any benefit to exposing them to other religions, so they can make an informed choice as to which one they believe? Let me put it another way: if a Muslim couple brought their child to your church, would you object? Would you look down on them for allowing their child to see what beliefs you hold?

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Lets start with this, do you personally believe in God or not?

There is an either or going on here, and this really is an either or, our positions are incompatible (op and mine).

Either there is a God, or there isn’t. If there is no God, then I can agree with your posting. But I happen to beleive there is a God, Trium God… Thus I fundamentally disagree with your anteseptic posting.

Actually, you’ve posed a complicated question in a simple form.

No, I don’t believe in a Judeo-Christian-Islamic god.

WRT some other kind of god, say a deistic or pantheistic being, I’m an agnostic.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

• Catholicism is the original. Are you interested?

You know, there’s a certain amount of truth in the old saw that history is written by the winners. In my reading of Christian origins, the proto-Catholic church competed with many others for ‘the truth’. You will obviously disagree. But this is all way off topic.

• the resurrection and ascention of Jesus are evidence as extraordinary as one can get. A UFO is merely an unidentified flying object. Nothing extraordinary about that.

Surely you realize that I don’t believe in the historicity of that story, any more than I believe that the Iliad is an accurate portrayal of the Trojan War?

Then as Paul said, if it’s all a ruse, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. But if it’s NOT a ruse, you need to get busy and busy fast, finding the truth. As a suggestion, 1st get rid of the obsticles in your way, whether they are there of your own making, or the making of others…

The truth, of course, being what you believe. As for your suggestion, I’m not sure how I get rid of obstacles like my reasoning facility.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

In this day and age we are all raised in a secular society–the best we can hope for is to mitigate it effects on our children.

I disagree that we are raised in a secular society, but even if that’s the case, do you think it’s better to be forced to adopt the religion of the government?

Many people do this in their youth. How old are you now?

I’m 51.

Perhaps you should study each religions various claims and evaluate those–I think you will find that different than studying religion (you’ll need to evaluate different sects–i.e. you can’t just study “Christianity”–you need to evaluate Catholism or the Orthodox or protestants etc.). Study the totality of its claims and theology.

I have. It’s an ongoing process.

It’s funny how people can study the same thing and come to diametrically opposite views. The more I evaluate the claims–the more convinced I am that atheism just does not make sense–let alone explain anything. Most often the atheists I know simply do not like what Christianity teaches and so they adopt the atheism and believe whatever makes sense to them.

Christianity teaches many – sometimes contradictory – things, which is why there are so many sects. All I can say about your generalization is that in my experience atheists have many different reasons for rejecting Christianity – as well as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Or perhaps they just don’t want to live in conformance with what they were taught? Maybe they want to spend all night partying and drinking? Maybe that’s as much thought as went into it.

Oh, c’mon Mark. You must see that it works both ways. What do you say about someone who switches from Islam to Christianity? Or Hinduism to Christianity? Or atheism to Christianity. Would you make a snide remark about them to?

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Some trivia: The US House and Senate chambers both have “In God We Trust” inscribed in huge letters on their front walls (they hardly ever show it on TV), and there are large paintings of prayer meetings, bible studies, and even a baptism in the Capitol building. At one time, congressmen could attend protestant services and Catholic Mass inside the Capitol building.

Nobody’s attempting to “plaster” anything that ain’t already been there for a long time.

This is way off topic again, but there are many arguments against the use of federal funds to support any religious beliefs. Was In God We Trust put up by the founding fathers?

Besides, we were talking about The Ten Commandments, one of which makes working on the Sabbath a sin. Do you agree with that commandment? Is it binding to Christians? If not, why would you want it on a federal building?

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Please see Christs comments in the Gospels on the sabbath–when he was accussed of violating the sabbath. I am sorry I can’t give you the verses right now–but I am sure someone else can. This may help provide a Christian perspective.

I’m aware of the passage. But Jesus never actually said that it was okay to work on the Sabbath, only that certain acts, like those of mercy, could not wait.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Then you are unusual as a theist. The one’s I come across do ask me to prove the negative.

Then I would recommend a course in logic for them.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Could you rephrase the question?

Well, by throwing out the idea that we may have been brainwashed, you taint the idea that we may be objective. For example, if someone told you a certain person you hadn’t met was crazy, when you did meet that person, your impression would already be colored by what you had been told, even if you try to be totally objective. It’s why lawyers state opinions they know opposing counsel will object to (and they know full well the objection will be sustained). But once something’s been stated, even though the judge tell the jury to disregard it, it can’t be completely disregarded. Lawyers know this, so that’s why they do that.

Absolutely. Of course there are levels of questioning. I’m pretty certain that I know why airplanes fly, and those reasons are bound up with the laws of physics. I’m not so sure about what I believe about macroeconomics.

But to what extent are you questioning your current beliefs?

Do you have the time to read every book that has been recommended to you? I have a reading list a mile long, a full time job, and, like you, I have a life. Let’s just generalize and say that after four decades of hearing and reading the arguments, I haven’t seen an original one in a long time. Oh, BTW, I also post on an skeptics board, where we have some believers who produce arguments for God all the time. They’re not original, either.

Ah, but what question can you ask that’s more important than whether or not God exists? Certainly it trumps why airplanes fly or what the laws of physics are. And since it’s the most important question you can ask (and your possible eternal destiny could rest on it), you owe it to yourself to investigate this question to the greatest extent possible. Yet you won’t even look at the book that could very well make the greatest difference in your life.

Well, I can’t make you look at that book if you’re closed-minded about it.

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 4 July 2010
Hello Good Person Joan of Bark –
I have read your opening post – way back – and respect your good question.
I simply cannot read all the interchange of postings.

I am a born Roman Catholic – who, over the years has wandered away into a number of profitable paths … Universal-Unitarianism, Advaita Hinduism, Mahayana Buddhism – and finally, by a specal gift of God, returned to the Home of my birth.

Your question is a serious one and deserves careful understanding and good and worthy response. In a way this is a challenge for me. I ask myself how I can justify my allegiance and commitment to the Roman Catholic Church.

Joan of Bark, I intend to take a few days and reflect and pray and aim at preparing a response to your question that I believe will be worthy.

In the meantime, may the God Who made you and Who Loves you … Bless you.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[cecilia97]

I think I understand what you’re driving at, though. You’re thinking that it’s natural for parents to choose their child’s religion, and that’s that. The kid gets no say in the matter. But do you not see any benefit to exposing them to other religions, so they can make an informed choice as to which one they believe? Let me put it another way: if a Muslim couple brought their child to your church, would you object? Would you look down on them for allowing their child to see what beliefs you hold?

Nicknames are different…sounds like even in the society where you currently live, the parents choose the child’s real name, they just don’t use it.

I’m saying that parents choose many things for their children, because the child is incapable of caring for itself and making many decisions. Did your parents let you decide what school to attend? Have you thought how much influence that school has had on the rest of your life?

And, no, a child cannot make an informed choice about religion. Even those of us who are still the same religion we were raised in understand that there is a large difference between immature, childish understanding and a mature faith based on reason. If I still thought the same things about God that I thought when I was 4 (or even 17), I’d be in a sorry state right now.

If the child wants to change faiths at age 18, no one can stop him. Before that, a parent gives the BEST they know to the child…in matters of faith, health care, food, education, etc.

Does it surprise you that, as a Catholic child, I was exposed to many different religions? I had Buddhist friends, Muslim friends, and friends of many different non-Catholic Christian denominations. Here are some of the services I attended before the age of 18:

Lutheran
Episcopalian
Presbyterian
Southern Baptist
non-denominational Christian
reformed Jewish

…so, if you’re assuming that Catholics have not been exposed to other faiths, that’s a faulty assumption.

In the end, the gulf between us is that you understand religion to be a choice about which option among several viable options is the best. People of strong faith do not understand religion this way. There is truth and there is falsehood. If you believed you had a truth, you would want to give it to your children, too.

 

[cecilia97]

You know, there’s a certain amount of truth in the old saw that history is written by the winners. In my reading of Christian origins, the proto-Catholic church competed with many others for ‘the truth’. You will obviously disagree. But this is all way off topic.

Surely you realize that I don’t believe in the historicity of that story, any more than I believe that the Iliad is an accurate portrayal of the Trojan War?

The truth, of course, being what you believe. As for your suggestion, I’m not sure how I get rid of obstacles like my reasoning facility.

Really…I have to say with the best of intentions, a remark like that in print looks like a backhanded insult with the implication that people of faith have lesser reasoning than you. The flies are not flocking to the vinegar.

 

[steve_b]

You know, there’s a certain amount of truth in the old saw that history is written by the winners.

In the end, truth always wins out.

JoB:

In my reading of Christian origins, the proto-Catholic church competed with many others for ‘the truth’. You will obviously disagree. But this is all way off topic.

I don’t disagree. It’s still happening today. Satan is doing a masterful job at sifting people away from the truth.

JoB:

Surely you realize that I don’t believe in the historicity of that story, any more than I believe that the Iliad is an accurate portrayal of the Trojan War?

No educated person argues that Jesus was not a historical person, or that His life is NOT historical.

The fact you don’t believe it happened, doesn’t change the facts of this historical event.

JoB:

The truth, of course, being what you believe. As for your suggestion, I’m not sure how I get rid of obstacles like my reasoning facility.

Everybody believes. It doesn’t mean that all the stuff one believes is true. One can be 100% wrong in what they believe. Because what they believe is false.

You can’t reason accurately, without facts. Don’t give parking space in your head with nonsense. Seek truth, it won’t fall apart on you when put under cross examination.

 

[cecilia97]

This is way off topic again, but there are many arguments against the use of federal funds to support any religious beliefs. Was In God We Trust put up by the founding fathers?

Besides, we were talking about The Ten Commandments, one of which makes working on the Sabbath a sin. Do you agree with that commandment? Is it binding to Christians? If not, why would you want it on a federal building?

I’m just saying that those things exist, and existed long before there was any controversy about the 10 Commandments on government property. The current, popular opinion about the separation of church and state is not the same as the founding fathers understood it to mean. Personally, I don’t care if those things are displayed or not…I am pointing out the reality that they are displayed, yet some people get all up in arms about adding new religious symbols to federal buildings.

I don’t work on the Lord’s day and I don’t think Christians should. I don’t care if non-Christians work on the Lord’s day or not. Federal buildings are closed on Sundays. Those are facts.

Until the mid-80s, it was illegal for stores to sell anything but milk, bread, and gasoline on Sundays in Texas.

 

[da_nolo]

Have you ever considered that you may have been brainwashed?

Consider the fact that children raised in Saudi Arabia become … Muslims. Those raised in most of India become Hindus. Children raised by practicing Jews in Israel tend to become practicing Jews. And kids raised by evangelical Protestants usually turn out to be Protestants. Why do you suppose this is? Do you believe that upon becoming free-willed adults they carefully consider all religious creeds and come to the conclusion that (fill in the blank) is really the best and truest religion?

Of course not. We can see that they’ve merely been indoctrinated into their religious creed without the benefit of a balanced exposure to other religions. So are you really any different?

Now you may have been raised in the west, where a more pluralistic society prevails. Certainly while growing up you would have encountered other religious sects. But is a child who goes to a Catholic school five days a week, and to mass every week, and has Catholic parents and relatives, really any different than a Saudi Muslim – except in the degree of the indoctrination?

Look at it another way. If you had children, would you take them to a Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque, a Protestant church, and a Hindu temple – as well as a Catholic church – and say to them: “Okay, my child, it’s now up to you to decide which of these religions – if any – is the true one”?

If you answer ‘no’ to this question, perhaps you can begin to see where the question at the top of this post comes from.

I would definitely say we are extremely different. there has been as there is more pressure on Catholics. Today more so than ever it seems.

Considering your fist assumption, you mix geographical, cultural, and nurture factors with brainwashing.

brainwash=
n.

1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.

with the above definitions, it should explain very quickly that raising a child with knowledge about parental attitudes, character, and even religion. does not designate that child as being “brainwashed”.

Now within India, Israel, etc. there are several culture/heritage blend into the religion and vise verse. This again, however, does not equate to “brainwash”. The “American Culture” has various ideals in it self that actually brings harm to those who practice them, however unlike India these practices/ideals do not connect with any religion. Catholicism in itself does not connect with any present society, culture, heritage. it is of it’s own culture, that breaks differences in culture/heritage/society. I most likely have little in common with the people in Egypt, but for the Catholics in Egypt, I have more than just what’s in common that binds us closer together(just thought that was nice to say).

I notice you also incorrectly explain Confirmation. We don’t ask anyone which is the correct religion. We ask the kids(and adults) to confirm their own belief in the Creed. Everyone who does partake in Confirmation go through the Church Teachings from Baptism to Confirmation with courses on the Church. Though it is interesting comment, I don’t make a decision simply because I know no other decision, or that there are no other reasons currently present in front of me. I did not Confirm in being Catholic because I was not aware of anything else (as I actually was aware of other religions/cultures), but because it felt right. It made me happy, and I did my best to be my best.

 

[da_nolo]

You know, there’s a certain amount of truth in the old saw that history is written by the winners. In my reading of Christian origins, the proto-Catholic church competed with many others for ‘the truth’. You will obviously disagree. But this is all way off topic.

Could you explain or give example on other religious sects that supposedly dispute or battle for “the truth” in Christian origins? Presently the claim is the Church was than it got off track which resulted in ‘reform’. though there was no reform, so was there any off track motion either?

 

[MarkInOregon]

Oh, c’mon Mark. You must see that it works both ways. What do you say about someone who switches from Islam to Christianity? Or Hinduism to Christianity? Or atheism to Christianity. Would you make a snide remark about them to?

I don’t think they are comparable switches for most people. When one “switches” from say Islam to Christianity–they are adopting a new dogma and rejecting an old – and in this particular case – it is a change that could be life threatening. One would imagine that such change would carefully be considered and reasoned.

On the other hand, while a change from Christianity or any other religion to agnosticism or atheism may be “reasoned” it does not involve the adoption of a new set of dogma. Agosticisn and atheism are really an absence of dogma. The agnostic believes that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable while the atheist denies the existence of God. Both of these positions leave the individual free to believe anything they want–there is no absolute truth (other than for the athiest and their denial that there is a God). This is fundamently different than adopting a new dogma and the lifestyle it requires.

I apologize if I sounded snide. That was not the intention. You offered a reason and I offered an alternative reason. It has been my experience that most people who leave their religious tradition do so by slowly ceasing the practice of their faith as they grow older. It is not through any systematic study and concious decision. First they miss services to participate in sports, then to watch a game, and their parents let them get away with it. Then they go off to school–where they don’t have to get up, they were out late drinking and don’t feel like getting up and going to services etc. and it mushrooms. Pretty soon they say things like well “I don’t need to go to church to have a relationship with God” even though nothing in their life would indicate they have even the slightest relationship with God. They live how they want to live and God will not get in the way of that. It has been my experience that this is how most people drift away and leave their faith tradition.

Of couse I know Catholics who have left the faith–over struggles with authority, or over what someone said or over what they think the Church teaches or even over what the Church teaches (the contraception issue for example). They haven’t truly studied what the Church teaches and why–they have their own beliefs about what the Church teaches–or they do not want to accept what the Church teaches–and so they leave. They didn’t ask whats the truth and how can I conform my life to it–they asked how do I want to live and went looking for a church that conformed to their view or simply left the practice of religion altogether.

Leaving your faith tradition, its dogma and required lifestyle for a different faith tradition, its dogma and required life style is quite different from leaving it for the absence of any defined dogma and required lifestyle.

I realize from what you have posted–your journey is different–but I am speaking of most people–based on my interactions with run of mill people.

Peace,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

I disagree that we are raised in a secular society, but even if that’s the case, do you think it’s better to be forced to adopt the religion of the government?

Christianity teaches many – sometimes contradictory – things, which is why there are so many sects. All I can say about your generalization is that in my experience atheists have many different reasons for rejecting Christianity – as well as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.

I would think that governments should not impose any religion on its citizens–but it should also not impose a lack of religion on its citizens. In America over the years many have confused the freedom to practice their religion (whatever it might be) with a freedom from religion.

What you say regarding Christianity–speaks the problem with each individual interpreting the Bible for themselves. It should also be noted that “Christianity” does not teach…Catholics teach, Orthodox teach, Lutherans teach etc–all professing to be Christians…
I find nothing contradictory in Catholicism and its theology and dogma – when viewed as a whole–in the light of Tradition and the Bible. This is what the magisterium of the Church guided and protected by the Holy Spirit does–it prevents the problems you speak of–it gives us assurance of the Truth. That is why those of us here who are Catholic are Catholic. One must evaluate each sect, it’s teachings or dogma, the reason it broke from the Catholic Church etc. and evaluate if it is valid–or if there are holes in its teaching or if it has changed its teachings or invented new teaching from whole cloth–if so then quite possibly–it is not a fully true expression of the Christian faith. The greatest tradgedy for Christianity is its lack of unity–but men are prone to sin and pride and doing what they please and not necessarily to seeking the truth these days… I have said none of this well but oh well.

Peace,
Mark

 

[TommyWommy]

Have you ever considered that you may have been brainwashed?

Consider the fact that children raised in Saudi Arabia become … Muslims. Those raised in most of India become Hindus. Children raised by practicing Jews in Israel tend to become practicing Jews. And kids raised by evangelical Protestants usually turn out to be Protestants. Why do you suppose this is? Do you believe that upon becoming free-willed adults they carefully consider all religious creeds and come to the conclusion that (fill in the blank) is really the best and truest religion?

Of course not. We can see that they’ve merely been indoctrinated into their religious creed without the benefit of a balanced exposure to other religions. So are you really any different?

Now you may have been raised in the west, where a more pluralistic society prevails. Certainly while growing up you would have encountered other religious sects. But is a child who goes to a Catholic school five days a week, and to mass every week, and has Catholic parents and relatives, really any different than a Saudi Muslim – except in the degree of the indoctrination?

Look at it another way. If you had children, would you take them to a Jewish synagogue, a Muslim mosque, a Protestant church, and a Hindu temple – as well as a Catholic church – and say to them: “Okay, my child, it’s now up to you to decide which of these religions – if any – is the true one”?

If you answer ‘no’ to this question, perhaps you can begin to see where the question at the top of this post comes from.

Actually, yes, I did consider that question! It led me on a 20 year journey away from the Catholic Church and then right back into her arms! I didn’t want to be Catholic “just because I was raised that way” so I went out exploring. What I discovered was that the Catholic Church is the place to be!

I’ll raise my kids Catholic, but I’ll also acknowledge their free will and critical thinking skills and hope they are led to the same conclusion.

Peace.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Well, by throwing out the idea that we may have been brainwashed, you taint the idea that we may be objective. For example, if someone told you a certain person you hadn’t met was crazy, when you did meet that person, your impression would already be colored by what you had been told, even if you try to be totally objective. It’s why lawyers state opinions they know opposing counsel will object to (and they know full well the objection will be sustained). But once something’s been stated, even though the judge tell the jury to disregard it, it can’t be completely disregarded. Lawyers know this, so that’s why they do that.

You’ve just proven my point. There is no such thing as being completely objective, as I have already stated a couple of times. But there are levels of objectivity. My opinion of your hypothetical man has been colored, but first of all, it might have colored my opinion either way. The person who told me the man is crazy could be someone I have no respect for, so his opinion doesn’t mean much to me. In fact, if I think of the source as a regular liar, maybe it even brings me to believe that the man of whom he speaks is definitely not crazy. Such are the complexities of human relationships.

But to what extent are you questioning your current beliefs?

It’s impossible to answer that question, as we have no means to make such a judgment. Even I don’t always understand what’s going through my head. But I will say this: I am here at this moment on a Catholic discussion board, reading responses to my question and answering them as best I can. Do you post on a skeptics board?

Ah, but what question can you ask that’s more important than whether or not God exists? Certainly it trumps why airplanes fly or what the laws of physics are. And since it’s the most important question you can ask (and your possible eternal destiny could rest on it), you owe it to yourself to investigate this question to the greatest extent possible. Yet you won’t even look at the book that could very well make the greatest difference in your life.

I was walking down the street in Vancouver once, when a Scientologist tried to thrust literature for his sect into my hand. He said something like:* It will change your life*. It’s a common enough claim made by many religions. But I only have so many hours in the day, and if I spent them investigating every aspect of every religion, I wouldn’t finish them all, nor would I have time to sleep or eat. If I read your book, and I still wasn’t convinced, then someone else could recommend another one, using exactly the same reasoning you just did. It could go on for the rest of my days, and I could find myself on my death bed, realizing that I just wasted my life searching for something I stopped believing in decades ago. No thank-you.

Well, I can’t make you look at that book if you’re closed-minded about it.

Have you read all the skeptics books countering the theists’ claims? In fact, have you read any? If the answer is no, then you really are in no position to insult me.

 

[Joan_of_Bark]

Nicknames are different…sounds like even in the society where you currently live, the parents choose the child’s real name, they just don’t use it.

I’m saying that parents choose many things for their children, because the child is incapable of caring for itself and making many decisions. Did your parents let you decide what school to attend? Have you thought how much influence that school has had on the rest of your life?

I attended the school that was closest to my home. I’m sure my mother put no more thought into it than considering the matter of distance.

And, no, a child cannot make an informed choice about religion. Even those of us who are still the same religion we were raised in understand that there is a large difference between immature, childish understanding and a mature faith based on reason. If I still thought the same things about God that I thought when I was 4 (or even 17), I’d be in a sorry state right now.

If the child wants to change faiths at age 18, no one can stop him. Before that, a parent gives the BEST they know to the child…in matters of faith, health care, food, education, etc.

But does a parent only feed a child the same food all the time, on the understanding that it’s the only food the child should eat? Do you only let them listen to one kind of music, because it’s the only kind you like? Would you want a child to turn out exactly like you in their opinions?

Does it surprise you that, as a Catholic child, I was exposed to many different religions? I had Buddhist friends, Muslim friends, and friends of many different non-Catholic Christian denominations. Here are some of the services I attended before the age of 18:

Lutheran
Episcopalian
Presbyterian
Southern Baptist
non-denominational Christian
reformed Jewish

…so, if you’re assuming that Catholics have not been exposed to other faiths, that’s a faulty assumption.

Okay, now you’ve answered the question I posed in the OP.

In the end, the gulf between us is that you understand religion to be a choice about which option among several viable options is the best. People of strong faith do not understand religion this way. There is truth and there is falsehood. If you believed you had a truth, you would want to give it to your children, too.

And I would hope you extend that same sentiment to people of other beliefs. Perhaps you do.