A question - not meant to inflame.

[caille]

A lot has been made of the differing interpretations of scripture. As an English major, I can tell you that the original intent of the author is of immense importance, and that is where the problem is. Who knows what the original meanings were? Language changes, words can change meaning, and translation from one language into another can make for some interesting challenges. The type of literature can be vital. For example, when my freshman lit class read Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal, almost everyone in the class actually thought Swift was serious about eating babies! The class had to be taught that the story used rhetorical irony and had an entirely different purpose. Anyone who tried to exchange the author’s meaning for his or her own would flunk the test.
So where do Protestants or Catholics go to find the original intent of the biblical writers? And how do they know that source actually knows the original intent? Before the first class on Swift’s work, most of my classmates would have said he meant one thing, and after the lecture they’d have given another answer entirely.

 

[Kevan]

almost everyone in the class actually thought Swift was serious about eating babies!

Yes, and when I taught college I found a similar level of discernment among some of my students. A few could catch my jokes, a few were oblivious of them, and many thought that I was serious. (It happens around here, too.)

Sola scriptura doesn’t teach that the Bible is all you need. Instead, it teaches that only the Bible speaks with divine authority. People differ on interpretations, but it’s a rare one who claims that he differs because the Holy Spirit told him to. Most of us know that there’s a whole lot of humanness in these things.

We Protestants divide because we can. It’s a big world with plenty of room and there’s little to be gained by forcing people together who don’t have to be together. Just let them move freely and associate howsoever they may. Most of us are still friendly with one another, consider one another to be Christians (so long as nobody has adopted Hinduism or something and given it Christian words), and even commune together in settings like camps, concerts, evangelistic crusades, et al. We are comfortable in one another’s churches, we pray together during lunch at work. We just don’t see ourselves as nearly so thirty-thousandish as so many of the accusations around here depict it.

 

[paarsurrey]

Do Protestants not believe there is one ultimate truth? If so, what is that truth?

Hi
Though I am not a protestant, I am peaceful, but I would like to add that the ultimate Truth is GodAllahYHWH himself. The scriptures say that Al-Haq, meaning the Absolute Truth is one of the names/attributes of GodAllahYHWH; total attributes are said to be about ninety nine or so.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi
Though I am not a protestant, I am peaceful, but I would like to add that the ultimate Truth is GodAllahYHWH himself. The scriptures say that Al-Haq, meaning the Absolute Truth is one of the names/attributes of GodAllahYHWH; total attributes are said to be about ninety nine or so.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Paarsurrey-

Is Jesus God?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We Protestants divide because we can.

After 2,000 years, we Catholics are united because we can - by God’s grace - remain faithful to Jesus’ prayer to the Father that we might all be ONE.

One Lord.
One faith.
One baptism.
One flock.
One shepherd.

One holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Stop making excuses and spinning your doctrinal divisions. :tsktsk:

Disunity among Christians is a scandal in the eyes of the world and causes souls to be lost for eternity.

There is no “upside” to the wound created in the body of Christ by the Protestant Deformation. :nope:

 

[Kevan]

Stop making excuses and spinning your doctrinal divisions. There is no “upside” to the wound created in the body of Christ by the Protestant Deformation. :nope:

Well, we enjoy it, so don’t be such a wet blanket.

 

[jmcrae]

Every Protestant I ever heard of believes Baptism is commanded by God to be done.

Your brother believers right here in this thread has taught elsewhere on this very Forum that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention, and not what Christ was referring to at all when He commanded that all are to be baptized.

This would seem to contradict your next statement, that

The debates are not over whether baptism is required at all it’s, on when we should baptize.

 

[Kevan]

Your brother believers right here in this thread has taught elsewhere on this very Forum that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention

No, that’s not what he said.

And if anybody should say that, what would it prove? Nobody over here thinks that there aren’t bad ideas running around.

 

[jmcrae]

No, that’s not what he said.

What did he say, then?

It seemed pretty clear to me that he thinks “water baptism” (the actual baptism ceremony itself) is a symbolic device of man, and not a reality that comes from God.

I also don’t think he’s inventing this idea out of his head; he has many proofs that seem to come officially from his denominational teachers.

 

[QuicumqueVult]

As long as you’re willing to concede that the earth represents the Catholic Church, that the Vatican is the national norm, and that the various nations conform more or less to the norm.

 

[Kevan]

What did he say, then?

Well, you gave the link. Didn’t you read it? Here’s what you linked to, the entire post: He said “It’s not through water baptism. It is Faith in Jesus and repentance that brings you into this new covenant. There’s no other way.”

He’s simply disagreeing with the Catholic doctrine regarding the purpose and effects of baptism. He did not say, as you alleged, that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention.

But, back to the topic, if someone were to say that, it wouldn’t prove anything except that somebody said something. By comparison, would you affirm that Catholicism is divided over who the Pope is? (No.) Well, what would it prove if I linked to a few antipopes? (Nothing.)

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey-
Is Jesus God?
Thanks in advance.

Hi
No, Jesus is no God, he never died a cursed death on Cross, he died a respectful and natural death in Sirinagar,Kashmir, India. GodAllahYHWH never dies, but Jesus died at least for three days and three nights as per NTBible , believing that would make a hole in the eternity- an important attribute of GodAllahYHWH which cannot be corrected.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, we enjoy it, so don’t be such a wet blanket.

Perhaps you might consider more carefully the words of Jesus:

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Why is “COMPLETE UNITY” important according to your Lord and Savior?

So that the world might know that God sent His son, Jesus, to save us all.

The unity of the Church was SUPPOSED TO BE A SIGN that the gospel is true. So, while you non-Catholics “enjoy” playing “church”, the testimony of Christianity is weakened and many souls are lost because of the scandal you maintain by your “protesting” against the Catholic Church.

If telling you this makes me a wet blanket, then I hope to rain on your parade for as long as God gives me breath.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi
No, Jesus is no God, he never died a cursed death on Cross, he died a respectful and natural death in Sirinagar,Kashmir, India. GodAllahYHWH never dies, but Jesus died at least for three days and three nights as per NTBible , believing that would make a hole in the eternity- an important attribute of GodAllahYHWH which cannot be corrected.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Well, Jesus certainly claimed to be God according the “NTBible”, so there is a choice to be made.

Jesus must be:

a. Lunatic (he was insane and made false claims about himself)
b. Liar (he knew he wasn’t God but told people he was)
c. Lord (he was really God and spoke the truth).

No matter which of these you choose, he was not a “good prophet”. In the first case, an insane person speaking falsehoods cannot be trusted to speak true propheices. In the second case, a person who knowingly tells lies cannot be considered “good” no matter what else he does. In the final case, if Jesus really is Lord (ie, the son of the Living God, one in being with the Father and the Holy Spirit), then he was no prophet. He was the second person of the Holy Trinity and God incarnate.

Finally, how can you say that he died for three days and nights “as per the NTBible” with any confidence, since the witnesses of those who wrote the New Testament claim that he died upon the cross?

 

[Kevan]

I hope to rain on your parade for as long as God gives me breath.

That’s a given. But you’re denying the fact to which I testified, we are not that divided. Organizational unity is, to us, superfluous. Signing everyone into some organization does not mean that they are united, even if they are unified. The unity of which the Lord spoke is spiritual, and we have more of that than y’all do …

many souls are lost because of the scandal you maintain

…and that’s why we win more souls than y’all do. :tiphat:

 

[jmcrae]

The unity of which the Lord spoke is spiritual, and we have more of that than y’all do …and that’s why we win more souls than y’all do. :tiphat:

Yes, that’s why there are only 1.2 billion of us, and 450 million (less than half a billion) of you guys.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, you gave the link. Didn’t you read it? Here’s what you linked to, the entire post: He said “It’s not through water baptism. It is Faith in Jesus and repentance that brings you into this new covenant. There’s no other way.”

Did you read the rest of the thread? He also said other things.

He’s simply disagreeing with the Catholic doctrine regarding the purpose and effects of baptism. He did not say, as you alleged, that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention.

He said that earlier in the thread, and the statement that I linked to was his concluding statement.

But, back to the topic, if someone were to say that, it wouldn’t prove anything except that somebody said something.

He is being taught this officially in his church. It is not “just somebody saying something” - he is faithfully quoting his teachers.

By comparison, would you affirm that Catholicism is divided over who the Pope is? (No.) Well, what would it prove if I linked to a few antipopes? (Nothing.)

Because those who listen to the official teaching of the Catholic Church know who the Pope is.

Believers is listening to the official teachings of Protestantism. He is not making stuff up out of his own head. If you read the whole thread, you’ll realize that.

 

[Kevan]

He said that earlier in the thread, and the statement that I linked to was his concluding statement.

Well J, let’s just avoid playing “He said, she said” and go straight to the evidence. Quote the man. You have his entire thread right there in front of you. Quote him. You told us that he taught “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention, and even gave us a link that said nothing of the sort.

Now, did he teach that? Just show us where he taught that.

You’ve got over 5,000 posts to your name. You know the drill.

Give us the quotations that support your allegation that “believers” has taught that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention,

You cannot do it. You have made a serious misrepresentation of another man’s writings.

 

[Kevan]

"Kevan:

and that’s why we win more souls than y’all do.

Yes, that’s why there are only 1.2 billion of us, and 450 million (less than half a billion) of you guys.

You didn’t “win” them. You made them at home.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s a given. But you’re denying the fact to which I testified, we are not that divided. Organizational unity is, to us, superfluous. Signing everyone into some organization does not mean that they are united, even if they are unified. The unity of which the Lord spoke is spiritual, and we have more of that than y’all do …and that’s why we win more souls than y’all do.

More spin.

Try telling that to the 80,000+ adult converts who will enter the Catholic Church this year in the US alone after an intense 6-12 month period of study and prayerful discernment.

Folks wander down the aisle in response to your “altar calls” every Sunday, but no one comes into the Catholic Church quickly or without reflection.

Hope this helps. :tiphat: