A question - not meant to inflame.

[The_Truthinator]

The Catholic Institution is just another* part *of the Body of Christ. After all, most Catholics accept Protestantism to be within realm of Christendom, so this must be the case. I think a large number of Catholics would like to believe they are the bigger piece of the Pie, so to speak, but, alas, no.

So then, if Catholicism (who, as confirmed by a Catholic friend of mine, has numerous divisions and subcategories itself) is just another part of the Body, and if the Church is the Mass of Believers—each individual human composing it innately incapable of perfect interpretation, be it in regards to A Modest Proposal or certainly the very Word of God— what would make the Holy See, or the magisterium, for that matter, infallible? Peter was not infallible, nor was Paul, or John, or any of the other Apostles. Far from it! Why, then, the human interpretation of the Catholic Institution, which almost seems to claim for itself the sole ability to communicate properly with the Spirit?

 

[RPConover]

That’s a given. But you’re denying the fact to which I testified, we are not that divided. Organizational unity is, to us, superfluous. Signing everyone into some organization does not mean that they are united, even if they are unified. The unity of which the Lord spoke is spiritual, and we have more of that than y’all do …and that’s why we win more souls than y’all do. :tiphat:

Fundamentalist evangelical types win converts to an American folk-religion. Catholics win converts to Christianity.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Fundamentalist evangelical types win converts to an American folk-religion. Catholics win converts to Christianity.

“American folk religion”? Explain, considering the Protestant movement of Luther began in Germany, the Reformation of Zwingli in Switzerland …

 

[RPConover]

“American folk religion”? Explain, considering the Protestant movement of Luther began in Germany, the Reformation of Zwingli in Switzerland …

Protestants origins are in Europe, and their heresies are bad enough…the evangelical fundamentalists of the American South and Mid-west practice an American folk-religion; distorting real Christianity in favor of selfish emotionalism. Sorry if that offends!

Protestant churches might save souls if God wills it, who knows but God? However, good intentions do not equal truth.

 

[Kevan]

Sorry if that offends!

No you’re not.

 

[RPConover]

No you’re not.

Let me rephrase that: I’m saddened for those that have been duped by these heresies. I am sorry whenever the truth becomes offensive to some…

 

[The_Truthinator]

Protestants origins are in Europe, and their heresies are bad enough…the evangelical fundamentalists of the American South and Mid-west practice an American folk-religion; distorting real Christianity in favor of selfish emotionalism. Sorry if that offends!

Distorting it in what way? In any case, Christianity was at least equally distorted by the power-hungry Catholic Institution of the Middle Ages and numerous less-than-Christ-centered papacies … What’s more, corruption continues within the modern church, which claims for itself sole ecclesiastical interpretive infallibility.

Protestant churches might save souls if God wills it, who knows but God? However, good intentions do not equal truth.

Considering nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that organizational preferance saves, this response must therefore deal with a false premise. Faith saves. Institutions, such as the Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, and Church of Christ bodies, however, do not, and cannot. Since this is the case, some Protestants may be saved, others not; the same is true of Catholicism. Your accusation against the salvific position of so many of your own brethren leads me to conclude your understanding of the grace of God is somewhat insufficient in this area. Pray, friend.

 

[RPConover]

Distorting it in what way? In any case, Christianity was at least equally distorted by the power-hungry Catholic Institution of the Middle Ages and numerous less-than-Christ-centered papacies … What’s more, corruption continues within the modern church, which claims for itself sole ecclesiastical interpretive infallibility.

Then what of the Orthodox? They were apart from medieval Western Europe, no Pope, and have essentially remained the same since the great schism. What of the “corruption” of these papacies you speak of? The Orthodox must be right then, yea? Or did Christians get it wrong from the beginning?

Faith does save, and the Sacraments confer grace. Those Bishops that are successors of the Apostles, and the Priests they ordain have the sole right to conferr these Sacraments. The Christian East has essentially the same understanding of Sacraments as Roman Catholics… so really in being protestant you reject the entirety of historic Christianity and many teachings handed down by the Apostles. As you said to me, “Your accusation against the salvific position of so many of your own brethren leads me to conclude your understanding of the grace of God is somewhat insufficient in this area.” Your neglect of the Sacraments leads me to conclude that your reception of the Grace of Gos is insufficient in this area.

As the Orthodox would say,We know where grace is: in the visible fold of Christ’s Church(all being Apostolic Churches). We do not, however, know where it isn’t.’ God is great and Merciful, I will pray, I hope you will as well. The Church does have the final word in interpretation of scripture…

You see what happens when Joe Schmoe of the Western-American-branch of Reformed-Presbolutheranism decides he alone is the interpreter… I can’t walk down three blocks from my home in Brooklyn without seeing 5 “Churches” all claiming to be “Apostolic” or A “Church of God in Christ Inc.”

 

[RPConover]

Please do excuse my big mouth and brashnessin my posting; I’m quitting smoking and quite irritable. I’m sure you’re aware of the position anyway, and I doubt my rant will effect much. My apologies!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner! :crying:

 

[biblebeliver]

Jesus warned,

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. (Matthew 7:13)
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)

Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall. (Matthew 7:24-27)

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:24)

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (John 10:27)

And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. They will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. (John 10:4-5)

What is the reason why there are so many [Christian] sects in the world? Surely it must be because we don’t follow the guidance of the Spirit of God. If we followed the Word of God and the will of God in all things, we should be very much more alike than we are. I do not think that even then we should all run in the same groove, for the road to heaven may be sufficiently wide to have several different paths in it, and yet shall they all be in the same way and in the same road.

These words well sum up the broad way (Matthew 7:13). They make room for many who do not see eye to eye regarding a myriad of Scriptural subjects. Thus, they create a wide theological path that supposedly leads to heaven, but in reality leads to hell; because people are led to “not receive the love of the truth” (as in 2 Thessalonians 2:10)

When “Christians” agree to disagree over what the Bible teaches, and only the “essential” matters matter (in regards to salvation), there resides an unbiblical simplicity in the mind and a deadly cancer (2 Timothy 2:16-17) in the hearts of such fools (false Christians) who learn to scorn and hate knowledge. Because, their perspective is, “Hey, it’s not a matter of salvation.” Therefore, their complacency will destroy them (Proverbs 1:32).

 

[biblebeliver]

Religion is the WORST thing that has ever happened to this world; Countless Billions of souls have been doomed to hell by false religion. Learn what the Bible has to say on the matter. We expose many false religions…not to be unkind…but because the truth has been hidden from the world’s masses. Just remember, religion didn’t die on the cross for you.

 

[biblebeliver]

It is very simple to be saved and takes only a minute to explain. Please let me show you how to go to Heaven from the Bible, God’s Word…

Man is a sinner.
Isaiah 53:6, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
John 3:3, “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
There is a price on our sin–eternal death in Hell.
Romans 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 5:12, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
2nd Thessalonians 1:8, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 20:15, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 21:8, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Jesus paid that price by dying on the cross and shedding His blood.
Romans 5:8, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1st Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
1st Peter 1:18-19, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ…”
By faith in Jesus Christ ALONE we can be saved.
Salvation is NOT found in a religion or good works, but in a person…the LORD JESUS CHRIST!

John 11:25, “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1st Corinthians 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

HERE IS HOW YOU CALL UPON THE LORD

Do you admit that you are a sinner under the condemnation of God?

Do you admit that you deserve to burn in Hell?

Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God (God in the flesh) who died upon the cross and shed His precious blood to pay for your sins?

If you are willing to admit your sinfulness and would like for God to save your soul, just ask Him…

Dear Jesus,
I admit that I am a sinner, deserving of Hell. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to Heaven when I die. I now believe upon You alone, apart from all works and religion, as my personal Savior. Thank you. Amen.

Just as you were born physically to your parents, you were born spiritually into the Family of God when you believed on Jesus! (John 3:3). Please understand that we are not saved because we pray a prayer; but because we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. It is certainly appropriate to ask the Lord in prayer to forgive and save us; but it is our faith which prompted us to pray the prayer. You could just as easily believe in your heart upon the Lord to be saved, and not pray at all. Salvation is of the heart, as we read in Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”

You do NOT have to be baptized or doing anything to go to Heaven other than trust upon the Lord as your Savior … Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” What a wonderful Savior!

 

[RPConover]

It is very simple to be saved and takes only a minute to explain. Please let me show you how to go to Heaven from the Bible, God’s Word…

HERE IS HOW YOU CALL UPON THE LORD

Do you admit that you are a sinner under the condemnation of God?

Do you admit that you deserve to burn in Hell?

Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God (God in the flesh) who died upon the cross and shed His precious blood to pay for your sins?

If you are willing to admit your sinfulness and would like for God to save your soul, just ask Him…

Dear Jesus,
I admit that I am a sinner, deserving of Hell. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to Heaven when I die. I now believe upon You alone, apart from all works and religion, as my personal Savior. Thank you. Amen.

Just as you were born physically to your parents, you were born spiritually into the Family of God when you believed on Jesus! (John 3:3). Please understand that we are not saved because we pray a prayer; but because we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. It is certainly appropriate to ask the Lord in prayer to forgive and save us; but it is our faith which prompted us to pray the prayer. You could just as easily believe in your heart upon the Lord to be saved, and not pray at all. Salvation is of the heart, as we read in Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness…”

You do NOT have to be baptized or doing anything to go to Heaven other than trust upon the Lord as your Savior … Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” What a wonderful Savior!

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only…? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:14, 24, 26)

That post is awfully hokey as well… American folk-religion…?

 

[Kevan]

I’m quitting smoking and quite irritable.

You have my genuine sympathy.

 

[jmcrae]

Well J, let’s just avoid playing “He said, she said” and go straight to the evidence. Quote the man. You have his entire thread right there in front of you. Quote him. You told us that he taught “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention, and even gave us a link that said nothing of the sort.

How would you interpret what he is saying? Is it even possible to interpret what he is saying as meaning that baptism is a necessary sacrament for salvation?

 

[jay29]

We Protestants divide because we can. It’s a big world with plenty of room and there’s little to be gained by forcing people together who don’t have to be together. Just let them move freely and associate howsoever they may. Most of us are still friendly with one another, consider one another to be Christians (so long as nobody has adopted Hinduism or something and given it Christian words), and even commune together in settings like camps, concerts, evangelistic crusades, et al. We are comfortable in one another’s churches, we pray together during lunch at work. We just don’t see ourselves as nearly so thirty-thousandish as so many of the accusations around here depict it.

Just one big HAPPY CLAPPY

 

[jay29]

Yes, that’s why there are only 1.2 billion of us, and 450 million (less than half a billion) of you guys.

Remember, you cannot count protestants as ONE because they are NOT one.

1.2 billion catholics vs.33,000 denoms

:twocents:

 

[Kevan]

How would you interpret what he is saying? Is it even possible to interpret what he is saying as meaning that baptism is a necessary sacrament for salvation?

I already told you what he was saying.

Is there some reason why you don’t just quote the man and show us where he taught that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention?

Rather than assuming that he’s wrong because he goes to the wrong church, maybe you should read what he says carefully enough to make sure that he isn’t telling you something that would be good for you.

And if you are tempted to think that you have already read his words carefully enough, I’d like to remind you that you seriously misrepresented his statements already and have demonstrated that you don’t have a CLUE regarding what he was writing.

Don’t believe me? Then quote the man and demonstrate that your accusation against him was justified.

 

[mdstanzel]

I would honestly like to hear how Protestants explain the fact that there are thousands and thousands of different protestant faiths and beliefs, all derived from individuals and/or congregations who are reading scripture and believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations. Do Protestants not believe there is one ultimate truth? If so, what is that truth?

I have posed this question a few times to one of the seemingly more “passionate” Protestants on this board and have yet to get a response, so I thought I would open it up to everyone.

Thanks.

According to the churches of Christ, you and all the other denominations are going to hell for not submitting to the truth. You have no hope in you man made Catholic religion. That is the teaching of the Stone-Campbell movement. End.

Now having thought at one time that that is true, I learned over time that could not be the case. Too long to discuss. But I thought that you’d like to know the following facts about the “church of Christ” beliefs:

1. Five (5) steps to salvation: hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized (not optional)
2. Five acts of worship: teach, fellowship, break bread, pray, sing.
3. Instrumental music is prohibited
4. Any title like Reverend or Father is absolutely prohibited
5. No idols, like crucifixes, man man ideas of pictures of so called “Saints”, we are all saints that obey the word. You will only find bibles in their homes, not eve a cross.
6. Works are necessary for salvation because “faith without works is dead”.
7. Leadership are congregationally controlled by qualified "elders who pick deacons. There are anywhere form 3 or more elders from 1 Timothy 3:1-9 and Titus 1:6-9. No man is allowed to be an elder if he is not married and does not have children that are believers.
   8.Wearing of special leadership identifying clothing is prohibited by scripture (to long).
   9.Women are to be silent in the worship. Period. Even in a classroom setting of qualified men. If a man is present the man is required to give the lesson even if the woman is more qualified.
8. Divorce is not allowed or else. Annulments are (even in Catholic) scandalous and rejected by God and so does the Church reject divorce.

Thought is would be interesting for everyone to know this.

 

[jmcrae]

I already told you what he was saying.

Is there some reason why you don’t just quote the man and show us where he taught that “water baptism” (meaning the physical ritual of baptism) is a man-made invention?

Do you want me to quote every single post of his? Why don’t you understand what he is driving at? Does someone who believes in tradtional baptism call it “water baptism?” (What do you think? Do they call it “water baptism” at your Church?)

The term “water baptism” gives the implication that there is some other kind of baptism available.

In this post, he says, “If you seriously believe water baptism frees you from sin, then you will have a hard time in front of the Judgement Seat of Christ.”

He also goes on at length against “man-made religion,” later in the thread. It shouldn’t take a genius to figure out that, in his viewpoint, going inside of a church at all is a bad idea, and going into a church to have water poured over you, or to be ducked in a pool of water is, therefore, a man-made ritual, and has nothing to do with the baptism commanded by Christ (as he keeps on repeating), which is purely spiritual, and not seen by human eyes.

(He is even claiming that the proto-Protestants cannot be found through archaeology, because they kept their belief system in their hearts - they not only didn’t have communities or churches that would have been noticed by others, they never even wrote anything down.)