A question - not meant to inflame.

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As I stated earlier, spiritual unity is important, organizational unity is not. People may belong to the same organization without possessing the unity for which the Lord prayed, and people may belong to distinct organizations (as we do) and still have the unity for which the Lord prayed.
How can there be doctrinal (spiritual) unity without unity of accountability (organizational unity)?

In any case, even if this were a workable theory, the reality is that I am not seeing actual doctrinal unity among Protestants.
 
As I stated earlier, spiritual unity is important, organizational unity is not. People may belong to the same organization without possessing the unity for which the Lord prayed, and people may belong to distinct organizations (as we do) and still have the unity for which the Lord prayed.
Then what, exactly, is the unity Christ calls for? Isn’t his prayer for us to be one, *as he and the Father are one? *

I can’t imagine Christ belonging to one distinct organization that teaches one set of doctrines and God the Father belonging to a different one that teaches a different set of doctrines.
 
I did not say “doctrinal” unity.

Spiritual unity comes from recognizing familial relations. I do not believe everything my fellow church members believe, but that doesn’t affect our unity at all.

You try and try to convince us that we are not enjoying what the Lord prayed for. You’re wasting keystrokes. We are here and we can see for ourselves.
 
I did not say “doctrinal” unity.
Spiritual unity is not some sort of aery-fairy day dream. Spiritual unity means that we are united in the Holy Spirit, who gives us the doctrine of the faith and preserves it in our Church.
Spiritual unity comes from recognizing familial relations.
Jesus loves all the people in Hell, and He may even be related to some of them, but He is not in “spiritual unity” with them.
I do not believe everything my fellow church members believe, but that doesn’t affect our unity at all.
Why not? Are your beliefs simply not important enough to you?

Is getting along with your co-religionists more important to you than knowing and following the truth of Jesus Christ? (In which case, why bother with a church? Why not just start up a Sunday morning coffee club?)
You try and try to convince us that we are not enjoying what the Lord prayed for. You’re wasting keystrokes. We are here and we can see for ourselves.
What I see in Protestantism as a whole is doctrinal chaos, and every heresy there ever was all being revived at the same time.
 
I did not say “doctrinal” unity.

Spiritual unity comes from recognizing familial relations. I do not believe everything my fellow church members believe, but that doesn’t affect our unity at all.

You try and try to convince us that we are not enjoying what the Lord prayed for. You’re wasting keystrokes. We are here and we can see for ourselves.
Ah, but Jesus prayed we would be one *as he and the Father are one. *That is, we should be one in the same manner. Do you think the Son and the Father do not have unity of doctrine? If they do, if they are One in doctrine, we should be too.
 
Ah, but Jesus prayed we would be one *as he and the Father are one. *That is, we should be one in the same manner. Do you think the Son and the Father do not have unity of doctrine? If they do, if they are One in doctrine, we should be too.
Great post, Kay Cee!! 👍
 
I did not say “doctrinal” unity.

Spiritual unity comes from recognizing familial relations. I do not believe everything my fellow church members believe, but that doesn’t affect our unity at all.

You try and try to convince us that we are not enjoying what the Lord prayed for. You’re wasting keystrokes. We are here and we can see for ourselves.
Jesus wants us to be one just as He and the Father are one. Do you think that Jesus and the Father disagree on any doctrine even the non-essential ones? Can you imagine Jesus complaining to the Father, “Dad, those dang Episcopalians are out baptizing babies again” and the Father responds, “Well, son, they’re supposed to.”? Do you think that Jesus believes that communion is actually his body and blood, but the Father thinks it’s just a symbol. No. They agree on all doctrine, and we are called to the same unity.

How could the world know with certainty that Jesus was sent, if they cannot see a unified church? Can the world look at the state of Christianity today and see one unified church? Do they say, “Yep, those Christians are certainly unified, that is plain to see. By looking at them, we can believe that Jesus was sent by God”? Not at all! The world cannot see an “invisible” unity of all true believers because what it sees instead is 25,000+ denominations bickering and fighting amongst themselves over doctrinal differences.

Jesus said that the unity of a single, visible church would be proof that He really was sent into the world by the Father. The unity of the church is supposed to be a witness to this fact. In order for the world to know the truth, it must be able to see a visible, unified church.

Just as Jesus and the Father are perfectly united, so God desires for the Apostles and those who come to believe in Jesus through them to be united. The reason for this unity is clear: to let the world know that you sent me”. Without this unity, the witness of the Christian Church to the world is weakened and as a result, the souls who fail to recognize the truth may be lost.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Evangelistic effectiveness is largely an empirical question. When we see sinners passing from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God, then we won’t have to write forum posts alleging that this group or that best fulfills the conditions “that the world may believe.”

I’ve never seen a Catholic organization conducting an effective soulwinning campaign and I doubt I ever shall.

I do admire, however, your medieval cathedrals.
 
Evangelistic effectiveness is largely an empirical question. When we see sinners passing from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God, then we won’t have to write forum posts alleging that this group or that best fulfills the conditions “that the world may believe.”

I’ve never seen a Catholic organization conducting an effective soulwinning campaign and I doubt I ever shall.

I do admire, however, your medieval cathedrals.
How I Solved the Catholic Problem
by Kristine L. Franklin
This realization was earth-shaking. I saw that evangelicalism had become, by its “Bible alone” principle, a religion of the literate elite. As a missionary taking the gospel to illiterate people, I realized I had to be absolutely sure, before God, that what I was telling them was, in fact, the Christian Faith, free from error. It had to be 100 percent Truth with a capital T. The problem was, using the “Bible alone” principle I had been taught, I had no way to be absolutely sure.

I witnessed among Guatemalan Evangelicals a cacophony of conflicting teachings. Pentecostal television preachers railed against the devil and cast out demons right and left. Fundamentalist non-Pentecostal preachers were just as busy railing against the Pentecostals for speaking in tongues, which was, they warned, a sure sign that they were in cahoots with the devil.

Some preachers were teaching a “health and wealth gospel” in one of the Western Hemisphere’s poorest nations. Many preached American-style democracy as the “biblical” government God wanted to see in Guatemala. Baptists preached that infant baptism didn’t count and that those who practice it aren’t “true Christians.” Lutheran missionaries were busy baptizing babies. Quakers told people they didn’t need any outward symbols of Christianity.

In place of the “One Faith,” I saw in Guatemala hundreds of “faiths,” hundreds of competing preachers. When there was One Faith, Christianity swept the world like wildfire. At no time in the history of Protestantism has an entire pagan nation turned to Christ. I thought of all the many pagan groups to whom the Catholic Church came and preached the Gospel and who were converted to Christ as a result: the Slavs, the Irish, the Gauls, the Saxons, the fierce Nordic races, the Japanese, Indians of South America, Africans, the list was endless. And here we were in Guatemala as “missionaries,” making Catholics into Protestants. These people had been Catholic for five hundred years. All we were doing was “converting” Christians to our way of understanding the Bible. Not a very impressive thing when you compare it to the 2000 years of Catholic evangelization.

The most astonishing discovery came when it dawned on me through long hours of reading and studying Scripture and conservative Evangelical commentaries on biblical sufficiency that Scripture doesn’t even teach that it alone is sufficient for knowing all Truth about the Faith. Protestants presuppose sola scriptura, without giving the slightest thought to the possibility that the “Bible alone” is an incorrect view. If that presupposition were erroneous, I reasoned, then everything which was built upon it would be dubious as well.

I knew I couldn’t stay where I was as an Evangelical. I had been sharing my struggles with Marty, and he had been doing similar study and soul searching. We decided to resign from our mission board and return to the United States, where my husband took a job teaching in a public high school. Upon arrival back in the States we didn’t know where we were headed theologically, but we did know that Evangelicalism was behind us forever. From the time we made this difficult decision to the time we entered the Catholic Church, six months went by.

envoymagazine.com/backissues/0.1/solved.htm
 
Evangelistic effectiveness is largely an empirical question. When we see sinners passing from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God, then we won’t have to write forum posts alleging that this group or that best fulfills the conditions “that the world may believe.”

I’ve never seen a Catholic organization conducting an effective soulwinning campaign and I doubt I ever shall.

I do admire, however, your medieval cathedrals.
Setting aside the fact that your post is rather insulting . . .

The topic under discussion is not whether or not Catholics evangelize. (If you want to discuss that, please feel free to start a new thread. I’m sure you’ll get plenty of responses about two thousand years of Catholic missionary work, including the efforts of those who risked–and often sacrificed–their lives winning souls for Christ. You’ll probably also hear from those who, on this very forum, debate pagans and atheists.)

The topic under discussion is not whether or not you, personally, have observed Catholic evangelization.

The topic under discussion is whether or not Christ calls for doctrinal unity. That’s what my and Randy Carson’s posts are about.

Please respond to the topic we are discussing.
 
I’ve never seen a Catholic organization conducting an effective soulwinning campaign and I doubt I ever shall.
Then you have never observed the work of the RCIA, or of the Legion of Mary. We who assist with the RCIA regularly see thousands of new converts gathering at the Cathedral to receive the Rite of Election or the Call to Full Communion on their journey towards becoming a new Catholic. 🙂

Part of the reason you don’t normally see Catholics accosting total strangers in the streets or on the bus is that becoming Catholic is a process that takes at least several months, and can take years.

Therefore, we don’t have any little pamphlets that you can read through, agree with, and sign, and then suddenly you are a Catholic.

It’s true that we could probably do a better job of advertising our RCIA Inquiry meetings and our Legion of Mary gatherings, and we’re working on that, but even without a lot of advertising, people seem to find their way in. 🙂
 
kevan,
You obvious have never seen Catholic evangelization the way you think of it. We’re so busy evangelizing that you don’t even see it. Look at what Mother Teresa accomplished. We serve the needs of the poor all the time without steeling credit for it. We take of Peace and Justice issues on a level that many Protestant’s reject. Unlike some Protestants we don’t teach that this group or that group is condemned to everlasting hell because we stepped outside the authority of the Church. There was a time when many Catholics taught that concept, but it was never the teaching of the Catholic Church.

There were 35 converts just in our Parish this past year, not counting reverts and children. But we don’t use scare tactics bible beating to convince people. We have enough cafateria Catholics and do NOT want anymore of those.

But I’d say the the 67 million Catholics just in the US is a strong standing. The 1.2 Billion in the world only closely followed by the 1.2 Billion Muslims in the world. There are approximately 250 million Orthodox (holy catholic and apostolic church). So I’d say your way off base here.
 
I’ve never seen a Catholic organization conducting an effective soulwinning campaign and I doubt I ever shall.

I do admire, however, your medieval cathedrals.
Changing the subject won’t get you off the hook. Randy and Kay Cee have asked you a very important question.
Jesus wants us to be one just as He and the Father are one. Do you think that Jesus and the Father disagree on any doctrine even the non-essential ones?
What is your answer?
 
Changing the subject won’t get you off the hook
The topic under discussion is not whether or not you, personally, have observed Catholic evangelization.
Without this unity, the witness of the Christian Church to the world is weakened and as a result, the souls who fail to recognize the truth may be lost.
If some church or movement has this unity, then more should believe, don’t you think? You use this as an argument; don’t be surprised if it elicits a response.

I do not deny that the Catholic church makes converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning. The latter is when a soul passes from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God.
What is your answer?
The answer is too obvious to merit expression. The question regards a false analogy. I’ll discuss things with you, but I won’t chase every stick you throw.
 
I do not deny that the Catholic church makes converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning.
So, someone who says a 15-second Sinner’s Prayer and signs the back of a Four Spiritual Laws tract is a soul won for God (even though he will have forgotten about the whole thing by the time he gets home tonight), but someone who spends anywhere from six months to two years praying, reading the Scriptures, discerning, going to Mass, studying the Catechism, overcoming his unChristianlike habits, confessing his sins in kind and number, and becoming spiritually purified is not? :confused: 🤷
 
If some church or movement has this unity, then more should believe, don’t you think?
The only thing on earth that is larger than the Holy Roman Catholic Church at present is the population of Asia - and we’re closing in pretty fast. 😃
 
I would honestly like to hear how Protestants explain the fact that there are thousands and thousands of different protestant faiths and beliefs, all derived from individuals and/or congregations who are reading scripture and believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations. Do Protestants not believe there is one ultimate truth? If so, what is that truth?

I have posed this question a few times to one of the seemingly more “passionate” Protestants on this board and have yet to get a response, so I thought I would open it up to everyone.

Thanks.
Please don’t ball all protestants together. It’s not a “you vs. us” thing. It’s a Biblical thing. Some denominations are just waaaaaay out of it while others are more strictly Biblical.

When you do that, let me know.
 
The answer is too obvious to merit expression. The question regards a false analogy. I’ll discuss things with you, but I won’t chase every stick you throw.
Well, then please enlighten us poor ignorant Catholics. Show us how I used a false analogy (I don’t recall using an analogy at all.)

Here’s my question: When Christ prayed that we be one as he and the Father are one, does that include being one in doctrine?

If the answer is obvious, it should be obviously easy for you to give it to us–especially since it is a yes or no question.

If you don’t answer the question, I will be forced to conclude that either:
  1. You don’t know the answer (which would seem strange since above you said the answer is obvious), or
  2. You don’t want to bother giving us the answer (even though it would require but one word from you to do so), or
  3. You do not want to admit the answer to the question.
Frankly, I can’t think of any other reasons why you won’t tell us.

So here’s the question again. When Christ prayed that we be one as he and the Father are one, does that include being one in doctrine? Yes or no?
 
Frankly, I can’t think of any other reasons why you won’t tell us
I don’t care to dignify it with a response. I had nothing bad to say about it, but I keep getting pestered about it, so now I’ve had to say that it’s a bad question issuing from an argument that is so bad, it’s just beyond my meager powers to address adequately.

If you’d like to assume that it’s wonderful and conclusive and unanswerable, well be my guest! Bandwidth is cheap.

A civil conversation does not imply an obligation to chase every stick that’s thrown.
 
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