A question - not meant to inflame.

[kujo313]

After 2,000 years, we Catholics are united because we can - by God’s grace - remain faithful to Jesus’ prayer to the Father that we might all be ONE.

One Lord.
One faith.
One baptism.
One flock.
One shepherd.

One holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Stop making excuses and spinning your doctrinal divisions. :tsktsk:

Disunity among Christians is a scandal in the eyes of the world and causes souls to be lost for eternity.

There is no “upside” to the wound created in the body of Christ by the Protestant Deformation. :nope:

Hey! What about Eastern Orthidox? There are TWO different days that Easter falls on! What about the TCC? What about those who don’t recognize Vatican II?
Please don’t mix ALL the rest together. Some are Biblical while others are waaaaaay out there.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I don’t care to dignify it with a response. I had nothing bad to say about it, but I keep getting pestered about it, so now I’ve had to say that it’s a bad question issuing from an argument that is so bad, it’s just beyond my meager powers to address adequately.

If you’d like to assume that it’s wonderful and conclusive and unanswerable, well be my guest! Bandwidth is cheap.

A civil conversation does not imply an obligation to chase every stick that’s thrown.

So I take it you refuse to answer the question even though you said the answer is obvious? Even though the answer would be a simple yes or no?

You said it’s a bad question, issuing from an argument that’s bad. Please show how this is so, because I’m not seeing it.

Please also show me where I said I assume “it’s wonderful and conclusive and unaswerable.” Hey, if I thought the question were unanswerable, I would not be asking it.

I also fail to see how you think it’s “beyond my meager powers to address adequately” when you already said before that the answer is obvious.

I’m not asking you to “chase every stick that’s thrown.” I’m asking you to answer one question.

So here’s the question again. When Christ prayed that we be one as he and the Father are one, does that include being one in doctrine? Yes or no?

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t care to dignify it with a response.

Why? Do you think it is a trick question?

What do you think Jesus actually meant by “one, as I and the Father are one,” if not doctrinally, organizationally, and in love and friendship?

I had nothing bad to say about it, but I keep getting pestered about it, so now I’ve had to say that it’s a bad question issuing from an argument that is so bad, it’s just beyond my meager powers to address adequately.

Why is it a “bad argument” that all Christians should believe in the same things that Jesus and God the Father believe in (or at least, do their best not to contradict them)?

 

[jmcrae]

Hey! What about Eastern Orthidox? There are TWO different days that Easter falls on! What about the TCC? What about those who don’t recognize Vatican II?
Please don’t mix ALL the rest together. Some are Biblical while others are waaaaaay out there.

Their sins don’t excuse yours. Notice from whom all of them have separated - the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is unique in that it is the source church against which all other churches rebel, and from which all other churches are separated. Yet, Jesus (whom they claim to follow) calls for both unity and obedience.

 

[Kevan]

So I take it you refuse to answer the question even though you said the answer is obvious? Even though the answer would be a simple yes or no?

You have got it exactly.

Please show how this is so, because I’m not seeing it.

See above.

Hey, if I thought the question were unanswerable, I would not be asking it.

Not the question, the argument, i.e., what the answer to the question is meant to imply (and which you already stated).

I also fail to see how you think it’s “beyond my meager powers to address adequately” when you already said before that the answer is obvious.

Not the question, the argument. See above.

I’m not asking you to “chase every stick that’s thrown.” I’m asking you to answer one question.

And that in spite of the fact that I’ve told you I choose not to.

It’s a free country. I pass up most of the CA forums and post here almost exclusively. I pass up most of the threads here, and enter only a few of them. I pass up most of what is said in most of the threads I write in, and respond to that part in which I hope to have a fruitful conversation.

And you are free to do the same. Is this a great country, or what?

 

[Kay_Cee]

You have got it exactly.See above.Not the question, the argument, i.e., what the answer to the question is meant to imply (and which you already stated).Not the question, the argument. See above.And that in spite of the fact that I’ve told you I choose not to.

It’s a free country. I pass up most of the CA forums and post here almost exclusively. I pass up most of the threads here, and enter only a few of them. I pass up most of what is said in most of the threads I write in, and respond to that part in which I hope to have a fruitful conversation.

And you are free to do the same. Is this a great country, or what?

Well, I know what I think the answer to the question is, but what is your answer? I guess we’ll never know, since you refuse to tell us.

If you think the question is meant to imply something false, please feel free to elaborate about that.

Of course I can’t force you to give an answer, but I can’t help wondering what it says to other people reading this thread that you refuse to answer.

 

[paarsurrey]

When Christ prayed that we be one as he and the Father are one, does that include being one in doctrine?

Hi
JesusYeshuaIssa meant by the above expression that he had fully submitted himself to the sevice of GodAllahYHWH, so there is no dicrepancy in him, he is totally aligned with him. They have become one in purpose not physically or literally.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[jmcrae]

Hi
JesusYeshuaIssa meant by the above expression that he had fully submitted himself to the sevice of GodAllahYHWH, so there is no dicrepancy in him, he is totally aligned with him. They have become one in purpose not physically or literally.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Even the Muslim gets it.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Even the Muslim gets it.

Although, of course, there is more to it. We believe Jesus is One in Being with the Father.

But yes, being one with the Father includes being one in doctrine.

I have to give Kevan points for honesty for flat out stating he refuses to answer my question. However, I would have liked to know if he agreed with me or not.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I do not deny that the Catholic church makes converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning.

The latter is when a soul passes from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God.The answer is too obvious to merit expression. The question regards a false analogy. I’ll discuss things with you, but I won’t chase every stick you throw.

You will never see if you are you looking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve never seen a Catholic organization conducting an effective soulwinning campaign and I doubt I ever shall.

I do admire, however, your medieval cathedrals.

Perhaps you might explain then how virtually ALL of central and South America became Catholic when they are located so far from Europe and the Middle East.

Could Catholic missionaries have had ANYTHING to do with this?

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Kevan]

Perhaps you might explain then how virtually ALL of central and South America became Catholic when they are located so far from Europe and the Middle East.

In Post #94 I answered this when I said “I do not deny that the Catholic church makes converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning. The latter is when a soul passes from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God.”

In scripture, “to believe” means true faith, not mere joining or going through the motions of a religion. True salvation produces holiness of heart and life, and that standard applies to evangelicals as well as to Catholics. “Faith” that doesn’t do that is the faith of demons: it does not save.

When the Lord prayed for unity that the world may believe, he wasn’t talking about the belief of demons; he was talking about true faith.

When I see Central and South Americans walking in holiness, I’ll say that their souls were won. But as long as they act like North Americans, I will say that their religion has made them twofold more the children of hell.

 

[Randy_Carson]

In Post #94 I answered this when I said “I do not deny that the Catholic church makes converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning. The latter is when a soul passes from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God.”

In scripture, “to believe” means true faith, not mere joining or going through the motions of a religion. True salvation produces holiness of heart and life, and that standard applies to evangelicals as well as to Catholics. “Faith” that doesn’t do that is the faith of demons: it does not save.

When the Lord prayed for unity that the world may believe, he wasn’t talking about the belief of demons; he was talking about true faith.

When I see Central and South Americans walking in holiness, I’ll say that their souls were won. But as long as they act like North Americans, I will say that their religion has made them twofold more the children of hell.

Oh, I see…so the indigenous people of the western hemisphere were not actually won to Christ…they were enslaved by papists and trapped in the Romanist system.

I understand you better now…thank you.

 

[Kevan]

I understand you better now…thank you.

If you think that your sneering perversion of my words reflects an understanding of them, you have revealed that you understand almost nothing.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you think that your sneering perversion of my words reflects an understanding of them, you have revealed that you understand almost nothing.

Okay, let’s review.

Originally Posted by Kevan forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
In Post #94 I answered this when I said “I do not deny that the Catholic church makes converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning. The latter is when a soul passes from death unto life and from the power of Satan unto God.”

So, the Catholic Church does not “win souls”, it just recruits. There is nothing salvific about hearing the good news or being baptized into Christ if it occurs in the context of Catholicism.

In scripture, “to believe” means true faith, not mere joining or going through the motions of a religion. True salvation produces holiness of heart and life, and that standard applies to evangelicals as well as to Catholics. “Faith” that doesn’t do that is the faith of demons: it does not save.

*Here you equate Catholicism with the “faith of demons”. Since Catholicism is false, we’re just “going throuth the motions of a religion.”

When the Lord prayed for unity that the world may believe, he wasn’t talking about the belief of demons; he was talking about true faith.

*Right. Not Catholicism - which is the “faith of demons”.

When I see Central and South Americans walking in holiness, I’ll say that their souls were won. But as long as they act like North Americans, I will say that their religion has made them twofold more the children of hell.

*Are you thereby saying that those in North America are the one-fold “children of hell.” Well, that may be true, I suppose, but what does that say about the Protestants who form the majority of Christians in the United States and Canada?

However, I would happily put the faith of a peasant woman who worships on her knees in a dirt floor hut high in the Andes of South America up against that of your “health and wealth” televangelists most any day.

Finally, upon reflection, who has been doing most of the “sneering” here, hmmm?

You see, I understand you better than you think*. :tiphat:*

 

[Kevan]

So, the Catholic Church does not “win souls”, it just recruits.

I did not say that. It does both, but one is not the other. My original contention was that we win more souls than y’all do.

There is nothing salvific about hearing the good news or being baptized into Christ if it occurs in the context of Catholicism.

I did not say that. The context is irrelevant. “Hearing” the good news doesn’t mean that the hearer has faith, and faith is necessary for a valid adult baptism.

Here you equate Catholicism with the “faith of demons”.

I did not say that.

Right. Not Catholicism - which is the “faith of demons”.

I did not say that

Are you thereby saying that those in North America are the one-fold “children of hell.”

I had assumed that you’d recognize an allusion to the Lord’s words when he spoke of those who had been recruited, but not saved. They were children of hell before their recruitment, they were twice so afterwards.

what does that say about the Protestants who form the majority of Christians in the United States and Canada?

If their religion doesn’t save them from their sins, it doesn’t save them at all. Faith without works is dead.

Finally, upon reflection, who has been doing most of the “sneering” here, hmmm?

You.

You see, I understand you better than you think

You understood almost nothing before you read this post. You had almost nothing to object to until you twisted my words into what you wanted to attack.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I invite one and all to examine Kevan’s original post and my responses (see post #114) and to judge for yourselves whether I have portrayed Kevan’s acidic comments about Catholicism accurately.

I look forward to reading your comments. :tiphat:

 

[jmcrae]

I invite one and all to examine Kevan’s original post and my responses and judge whether I have portrayed Kevan’s acidic comments about Catholicism accurately.

I look forward to reading your comments. :tiphat:

I understood him the same way you did.

 

[jmcrae]

“Hearing” the good news doesn’t mean that the hearer has faith, and faith is necessary for a valid adult baptism.

The Catholic Church understands this. Why do you think that the RCIA process (the Bible lessons, etc. that we give to people before they are received into the Church through adult baptism) takes anywhere from six months to two years?

What do you think they are doing for those two years, if not building up their faith and learning all about Jesus?

What method does your church use for evangelism, and how long does it take?

 

[Kay_Cee]

I invite one and all to examine Kevan’s original post and my responses (see post #114) and to judge for yourselves whether I have portrayed Kevan’s acidic comments about Catholicism accurately.

I look forward to reading your comments. :tiphat:

I would have to say that Kevan doesn’t flat out state that Catholicism = Faith of Demons, but his post *strongly *implied it. That’s the impression I got when I read it.

After all, this is a Catholic forum, and he was addressing Catholics. If I had posted on a Protestant forum “I do not deny that the Protestant churches make converts. I just don’t see any relationship between recruitment and soulwinning,” it would strongly imply that Protestants merely recruit members but do not win souls.

I do take exception, however, to Kevan’s statement that “When I see Central and South Americans walking in holiness, I’ll say that their souls were won. But as long as they act like North Americans, I will say that their religion has made them twofold more the children of hell.”

1. Kevan is not the judge of who walks in holiness, God is.
2. A great number of people in Central and South America are Catholic. To say that “their religion has made them twofold more the children of hell” again strongly implies that Catholicism is demonic.
3. I find it strange that he believes a Christian religion can make anyone a child of hell. It’s that individual’s personal actions that do that, not the religion he is a member of.