A Question of the Condom

[Abbadon]

Please feel free to remove this post if found improper. I was not sure where to post this…

This I’m sure is something that effects all married catholics. At all the youth camps I’ve been to they were always a no no on the use of condoms.

But after reading an articles about how in the past the church throughout frace or blegium (or both) banned the use of lightning rods as it was interfeering with gods will. Then the inventor went along to say how can a tall metal pole get in the way of gods will.

So the same question goes how can a condom get in the way of gods will? If god wanted you to have a baby wouldnt you have a baby no matter how many condoms you used?

Just curious for the personal oppinions of people, be good to hear the thoughts of marreid couples…

 

[pumpkinbeast]

I think the difference here is that a lightning rod is designed to protect you from harm. There’s no problem with taking care of yourself. And yes, if God really did want to strike you with lightning, it would take more than a lightning rod to stop Him. A condom is trying to prevent God from giving you a blessing. It’s like crossing your arms, shutting your eyes, and ignoring someone who is trying to give you a super present, for no reason other than they want to give it to you because they love you. Yes, they could fight with you and wrestle the gift into your arms, but the person who is refusing it is being a bit dense, not to mention rude.

 

[Chovy]

First of all, like any organization, the Church has changed its stance on some things throughout its 2000 year history.

The Church’s stance on condoms and other sorts of contraception is, in my opinion, quite unlikely to ever change. Why? Because the teaching is pretty fool proof. The marital embrace is designed to be unitive and procreative. By putting something (a condom) between a husband and wife, the act is no longer unitive OR procreative.

You are correct, if it is God’s will, a child can still be conceived. But, it is the couple’s use of the condom to try and negate God’s will that causes the sin. God’s will as described in the Bible is that man and woman, when husband and wife, should become one, and that they should be fruitful and multiply. A condom is designed to stop both of these from happening.

 

[DailyBread]

I know this example is extreme, but we could also say, well if it is really God’s will that someone live, then he will stop the bullet you fire at the person. We have our own will’s that God respects as our freedom and we can obviously choose things that go against his Will and evil results from this. This desire to go against his will is what is wrong regardless of the outcomes.

 

[1ke]

But after reading an articles about how in the past the church throughout frace or blegium (or both) banned the use of lightning rods as it was interfeering with gods will. Then the inventor went along to say how can a tall metal pole get in the way of gods will.

**This story is false. **

Please read here for the truth about the question of lightning rods.

So the same question goes how can a condom get in the way of gods will? If god wanted you to have a baby wouldnt you have a baby no matter how many condoms you used?

The Church does not teach that contraception is wrong because it “interferes with God’s will”. So, the comparison you draw is invalid.

The Church teaches contraception is wrong because it’s a disordered use of our sexual faculties. It violates the divine law, revealed by God, and the natural law inherent in every person.

Contraception is disordered, just as fornication, adultery, masterbation, homosexual sex, and other sex acts that separate the unitive and procreative elements of intercourse. These all violate the Sixth Commandment.

 

[1ke]

First of all, like any organization, the Church has changed its stance on some things throughout its 2000 year history.

It is misleading to say this. The Doctrine of the Faith **cannot **change, and therefore the Church has not changed any doctrines in its 2000 year history. Contraception falls in this category, as it is a part of the Moral Law and a violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Only traditions-- disciplines-- can change, such as what days we fast, etc. Those things are governed by Canon Law.

Please be careful to make this distinction.

 

[Chovy]

It is misleading to say this. The Doctrine of the Faith **cannot **change, and therefore the Church has not changed any doctrines in its 2000 year history. Contraception falls in this category, as it is a part of the Moral Law and a violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Only traditions-- disciplines-- can change, such as what days we fast, etc. Those things are governed by Canon Law.

Please be careful to make this distinction.

Thank you for the clarification. My apologies to anyone I confused.

 

[Abbadon]

It is misleading to say this. The Doctrine of the Faith **cannot **change, and therefore the Church has not changed any doctrines in its 2000 year history. Contraception falls in this category, as it is a part of the Moral Law and a violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Only traditions-- disciplines-- can change, such as what days we fast, etc. Those things are governed by Canon Law.

Please be careful to make this distinction.

Is the earth bieng the center of the universe a doctorine?

Mary? was an addition, i mean dont get me wrong i love all female spiritual becons, they are my loves but her whole role is accepted by some and not by others and was made major… Surely there are things that have been changed otherwise why is the church split up so much…

 

[adrift]

Is the earth bieng the center of the universe a doctorine?

Mary? was an addition, i mean dont get me wrong i love all female spiritual becons, they are my loves but her whole role is accepted by some and not by others and was made major… Surely there are things that have been changed otherwise why is the church split up so much…

The earth being the center of the earth was never taught as infallible truth.

Mary was not an addition. Even Luther respected her. Her role was accepted by all until protestant revolt. The Church has split because of people wanting to change the unchangeable. As was stated, nothing dogmatic has changed.

 

[Abbadon]

"The Church teaches contraception is wrong because it’s a disordered use of our sexual faculties… etc by 1ke was a very good response, i like it… The response also goes well to explain why the rythem method and other “natural” ways of not concieving are ok… or are they?

you use a condom not to concieve you have sex at a different cycle not to concive one is plastic the other is natural both intend to not concive… Just a point there i would like to get some oppinions about…

A common trend of responses seems to be “go forth and multiply”, gods wishes are bieng broken, not his will. But what if multiplying is bad for the earth? Were already straped for resources as it is and if every person in the earth lived like me or you with our internet and out oil by product shoes we would need 22 earths (roughly)… More humans bieng born at an exponential rate because people dont use contraception would be dire to the earth as it is already proving to be…

Oh another question, does god have an active part in a child bieng born or is it dependent on the choice of the parents? I apologise for the chaotic nature of my thoughts…

 

[1ke]

Is the earth bieng the center of the universe a doctorine?

No.

Mary? was an addition, i mean dont get me wrong i love all female spiritual becons, they are my loves but her whole role is accepted by some and not by others and was made major…

You are confused. Mary is not an “addition” nor is any doctrine regarding her.

Surely there are things that have been changed otherwise why is the church split up so much…

Nothing has changed. Those who choose to reject Church teaches break away, thinking they know better (just as Adam and Eve thought they knew better than God an chose to disobey and eat the fruit of the tree).

The Church remains constant.

 

[mercygate]

Please feel free to remove this post if found improper. I was not sure where to post this…

This I’m sure is something that effects all married catholics. At all the youth camps I’ve been to they were always a no no on the use of condoms.

But after reading an articles about how in the past the church throughout frace or blegium (or both) banned the use of lightning rods as it was interfeering with gods will. Then the inventor went along to say how can a tall metal pole get in the way of gods will.

So the same question goes how can a condom get in the way of gods will? If god wanted you to have a baby wouldnt you have a baby no matter how many condoms you used?

Just curious for the personal oppinions of people, be good to hear the thoughts of marreid couples…

What kind of youth camps are you going to that brought this subject up in the first place? Second, since the answer to this question is pretty easy, where were the people trained who brought up the subject without giving you a good answer?

Something smells fishy.

 

[1ke]

you use a condom not to concieve you have sex at a different cycle not to concive one is plastic the other is natural both intend to not concive… Just a point there i would like to get some oppinions about…

The Church does not teach that one must will to conceive each time one has sexual intercourse. The Church does not teach it is wrong to space/plan/postpone a pregnancy for a just reason.

Abstaining, permanently or periodically, is an acceptable method of doing so. Contraception is not.

A common trend of responses seems to be “go forth and multiply”, gods wishes are bieng broken, not his will. But what if multiplying is bad for the earth? Were already straped for resources as it is and if every person in the earth lived like me or you with our internet and out oil by product shoes we would need 22 earths (roughly)… More humans bieng born at an exponential rate because people dont use contraception would be dire to the earth as it is already proving to be…

Overpopulation is a myth.

If one has a serious reason to limit one’s family size, one may do so. The Church does not teach otherwise. Contraception is not a moral method of limiting one’s family size. One may choose abstinence.

Oh another question, does god have an active part in a child bieng born or is it dependent on the choice of the parents? I apologise for the chaotic nature of my thoughts…

God specially creates the soul of each human person who is conceived by the act of their parents.

 

[adrift]

The world’s not overpopulated by a long shot. The white poulations of the US, Canada, and Europe have gone into signficant decline since the end of the baby boom. You need slightly higher than 2 births per woman to sustain a population and maybe show so meger growth. In Europe and among Europeans in North America you’re looking at birth rates less than 1.5 per woman. In Africa AIDS rates are so high that the population is leveled despite birth rates that should show growth. The only reason China has a population problem is because the vast majority of China is uninhabitable. In other parts of the world poverty is not the result of overpopulation. In Mexico and South America governmental corruption, socialist philosophy, and organized crime are responsible for those economic conditions. Smaller populations wouldn’t change any of that. The Muslim world is controlled by fanatical religon which drives the poverty and serves the rulers. That also would not change because of smaller populations.

It’s an erroneous assertion. Give your friend the facts.

Germany running out of children:
dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1561093,00.html

European Countries can’t replace population:
observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1312865,00.html

Italy’s Population Decline
guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,1858848,00.html

Spain faces massive population deline:
bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7239/891

Poland Population decline
religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/Poland_facing_population_decline_German_office_says.htm

Your information is faulty these links should help you.

 

[Abbadon]

The earth being the center of the earth was never taught as infallible truth.

Mary was not an addition. Even Luther respected her. Her role was accepted by all until protestant revolt. The Church has split because of people wanting to change the unchangeable. As was stated, nothing dogmatic has changed.

If its not an infalable truth then why did they put galileo under house arrest for it?

By dogma what exactly do you mean? i thought the earth bieng flat and the center of the universe was part of the dogma, perhaps i have the wrong definition of dogma.

Surely in the entire history of the church there has been a backflip on something… maybe they just covered it up (like the US i would presume often does)… i just find it hard to belive that an institution of man can never have changed its mind in 2000 years…

Souls of animals? I’m racking my brain but i think your right its just hard to belive…

 

[1ke]

What kind of youth camps are you going to that brought this subject up in the first place? Second, since the answer to this question is pretty easy, where were the people trained who brought up the subject without giving you a good answer?

Something smells fishy.

I have seen teen chastity talks that came across the way the OP describes. It depends quite heavily on the skill of the speaker, and sadly not everyone is a Jason Evert.

 

[1ke]

If its not an infalable truth then why did they put galileo under house arrest for it?

I suggest you read the article on the Catholic Answers home page for a very good detailed explanation.

There is no church teaching regarding the sun, earth, universe, orbit of planets, etc.

You seem to think that the Church makes pronouncements on all sorts of things. It does not. The Doctrines of the Church as specific to Faith and Morals.

By dogma what exactly do you mean? i thought the earth bieng flat and the center of the universe was part of the dogma, perhaps i have the wrong definition of dogma.

Yes, you are mistaken. The Church does not have any doctrines about the orbit of planets or the earth being flat. You are seriously confused.

Doctrines and dogmas are the revealed truths of the faith, the divine law and moral law.

What did you think they were?

Surely in the entire history of the church there has been a backflip on something…

No. The Truths of the faith are constant. Have you not studied this in your religion classes?

maybe they just covered it up (like the US i would presume often does)… i just find it hard to belive that an institution of man can never have changed its mind in 2000 years…

That is because the Church is not an instiution of man. It is an institution of God.

Souls of animals?

What about the soul of animals?

I’m racking my brain but i think your right its just hard to belive…

Believe it.

 

[Abbadon]

1ke i know the facts i study are right i have CSRIO giving us lectures about global climate change etc… i’m a design student and they are for some ridiculous reason making sustainability a major part of the course…

Oh also i kinda shut up at the camps cus i dont like to create contraverys i’d rather just wait a while and flesh it over with freinds over some pool rather than be stuck in the hall for ages, plus most of the people are my freinds and they kinda start rolling their eyes becuase they know me so well. It’s easier to keep these things to the non reality of the internet…

The problem of overpopulation currently might be fine but imagine if everyone who uses contraception stopped using it… But your note on abstinance is a very good one… If most humans actually had… whats the word will power???

In my oppinion the world is currently overpopulated. If we need so many resources just so everyone can live at the same standard then we are defeinately overpopulated…

I guess we could all just not have Xbox 360’s and never play mass effect (psssht how about noooo) and live in an equal world. I wonder what the living standard would be if we all lived equally…

 

[adrift]

Surely in the entire history of the church there has been a backflip on something… maybe they just covered it up (like the US i would presume often does)… i just find it hard to belive that an institution of man can never have changed its mind in 2000 years…

Souls of animals? I’m racking my brain but i think your right its just hard to belive…

Surely there is not. Galileo’s house arrest was not on dogma.

Science Who said the world was flat

The Galileo Controversy
The scientific theory that the sun is the center of the universe was first formally proposed by the Polish Catholic, Nicholas Copernicus, who died 21 years before Galileo was born. Copernicus published a book about his theory and dedicated it to Pope Paul III. There was no objection from the Catholic Church to his book nor his theory of a sun-centered universe. The scientist went on to become a well respected clergyman.

Many years later, Galileo promoted the same theory of a sun-centered universe, but he did so in a much different way than Copernicus. Galileo insisted that his theory was the only way to look at the heavens and that it represented a contradiction of Scripture. Church authorities took issue with the impertinent scientist because he claimed that the theory of Copernicus was at odds with what the Church held to be true. The Church, however, did not deny the possible truth of the theory; she merely denied that the theory, as stated by Galileo, was a contradiction of Scripture. Some people today think that the Church at that time believed the world was flat and that she objected to Galileo’s claim that the earth is actually round. This is false. Both Galileo and the Church knew that the world was round.

 

[adrift]

What the heck is csrio