A question on contemporary and traditional Catholicism??

[Dirt]

The Catholic Church has established more hospitals, more soup Kitchens, more orphanages than any other group in history. All while upholding and protecting the Deposit of Faith and Dogma handed down from Christ and the Apostles. Our Religious orders have provided more assistance to the impoverished and helpless than the UN will ever do! Throughout history The Church has been, and will continue to be the prime source of assistance to the Worlds oppressed. We do not need Liberation theology, Modernistic ideology or any other “new age” ideology to do what we have been doing Since the establishment of the Church on the shores of Galilee. What some fail to see, or refuse to acknowledge, is that true love of Neighbor comes from a True Love For God and His commandments. The Church has always taught this. Even before Vatican Council II.

Spend some time studying the encyclicals from Popes across the centuries and you will quickly discover that the Church has always cared for the less fortunate Just as Jesus commanded.

papalencyclicals.net/

 

[mymamamary]

I know HOLY MOTHER CHURCH has always done more social work than any other organization will ever do, ( its one of the MANY reasons im proud to be a Catholic). (MOST HOLY EUCHARIST IS MY FIRST AND FOREMOST, FOLLOWED VERY CLOSELY BY CONFESSION!!). She has done more charity and fed more people, housed, clothed and cared for more people than any country ever has!! or will!! I LOVE MY FAITH, PREFERENCE IS TRADITIONAL, BUT A CATHOLIC THAT HAS BOTH PRAYER AND GOOD WORKS, IS A CATHOLIC!! PLEASE DONT FIGHT OVER THIS!! , p.s., im sure there are atheisitic philanthropic organizations that have failed or have been corrupted, as (why do any good for your fellow human being if there is no eternal incentive to do so ), maybe im wrong, please correct me if i am

 

[Zosimus41]

Somehow, I do not think you understood what Julia Mae had to say but she will speak for herself I am sure.

The correct term is OF. You appear to be putting down the OF and that is against the rules of this forum. You may prefer the EF and you can say so but not by making disparaging remarks about the OF.

Your accusation of “You appear to be putting down the OF” is entirely incorrect.(other than liturgical abuses) It was a simple use of Initialism. Novo Ordo Missae “new order of the Mass” N (novo) O (ordo) mass.

NOM or OF both are correct.

And before you go there yes I know I typed out mass after the NO but it was late I just got off work and I couldnt think of the words novus ordo so I just typed the initials.

Any other issue I need to address in my post that botherd you?

 

[Zosimus41]

I enjoyed reading yours, also. Loved “Tradical.” See, where I came from, the Mass, NO and all, was very reverently done. Yes, we held hands, and the altar girls had pony tails (which I preferred to the sloppy boy who picked his nose - ew) but there was nothing at all weird about it. The parish was very very prayerful, “liberal” I suppose, community service and also parishioner service oriented, and I miss it very much.

As the resident pinkocommie I really hated the churches with folding chairs meant to keep people from kneeling and needed much patience (still do) with folks who don’t have enough sense to keep quiet before and after Mass to respect those of us praying.

Jesus made room for all kinds of folks, He meets us where we are and leads us all Home. I just think we’d do all of ourselves a service if we kept a closer eye on Him and quit looking at one another.

Peace of Christ be with you and your family!

In reading my post one might think it was a clever play on words unfortunatly the simple truth is I forgot what the initials for novo order stood for LOL.

May God Bless you and I thank you for your comments.

 

[Roger_Buck]

I do think something of the dichotomy expressed by the OP exists.

Though I suspect it is more pronounced in America than many other places.

As an American living in Europe, I am somewhat baffled as to how conservative and traditional theological perspectives in America so often (not always!) seem to translate into economic conservative politics - and less care for the sick and needy.

By contrast it seems that liberal Catholicism will naturally identify more with the Democrats and the left.

Again for what it’s worth - from my perspective as an American in Europe, take it or leave it - this polarisation/dichotomy does not seem so pronounced in Europe.

 

[Roger_Buck]

I thought I might add that I share the OP’s concerns, I think.

I thirst for a traditional Catholicism.

And I also thirst for social justice.

Liberal Catholicism seems so easily to strip away or at least de-emphasise the Transcendent: the holy and the sacred in favour of a “this world” approach …

However, I am distressed indeed by how often - again not always - my fellow Americans seem to equate traditional positions which stress the holy with economic conservatism …

To clarify: I see this happens far less in Europe and I am troubled by this trend I see in my own country …

 

[agnes_therese]

“Contemporary” (i.e., attending the Ordinary Form of the Mass) does NOT equal “liberal,” thank you.

Hey Everyone!!
Disclaimer** I am not trying to start a fight, im just asking for opinions, no rude comments or sarcastic ones either!!
I have noticed something. Why is it that contemporary Catholicism (what you would call "liberal Catholic) emphasize social justice (e.g helping the homeless, the immigrant, etc.) and Traditional Catholicism ephasizes Mysticism and prayer. Now i can be very wrong but i have a soft spot for homeless people. However my leanings are traditional. Is there such a rift between the ephasis or am i just seeing things?? Any help please !!

 

[severus68]

Your accusation of “You appear to be putting down the OF” is entirely incorrect.(other than liturgical abuses) It was a simple use of Initialism. Novo Ordo Missae “new order of the Mass” N (novo) O (ordo) mass.

NOM or OF both are correct.

And before you go there yes I know I typed out mass after the NO but it was late I just got off work and I couldnt think of the words novus ordo so I just typed the initials.

Any other issue I need to address in my post that botherd you?

My remark to you was about your comments about the OF. Again, you can prefer the EF without putting down the OF.

 

[LightBound]

I enjoyed reading your post. As a traditionalist or Tradical lol myself in reading your comments I think you hit the nail right on the head.

“Trads like parameters, which is fine, but they just can’t seem to stand the thought that everyone isn’t coloring inside the same lines”.

It dirves me crazy going to NO mass alter girls bobbytail bouncing to and fro dressed up like a priest,no alter rails,an amry of Eucharistic ministers,no distinction between the sanctuary and the nave (the alter rail served more than one purpose) the high alter is all but gone,the tabernacle in and out of the sanctuary,people throwing around the orans posture all the while they have no clue in what they are doing or even why they use it.Eucharistic Ministers blessing the small children, Clown Masses,Clapping, People grabbing at you to hold their hand instead of respecting your right not to have to. etc…

Let me ask this…was there ever really a “clown Mass” done in a Catholic Church that is really part of a diocese with a Bishop in line with Rome?

Or is this a huge “urban legend” or something that made it’s way onto youtube and it really took place at a “broken off from Rome” uber-liberal church that has attempted to use the word “Catholic” in the name of it’s organization?

If it’s just a crude and offensive way to describe the Mass in OF, it’s pretty disrespectful to refer to the holy sacrifice of the Mass as a “clown Mass” just because it’s not to one’s personal liking or preferences.

 

[Zosimus41]

My remark to you was about your comments about the OF. Again, you can prefer the EF without putting down the OF.

As a friendly reminder your remark was:
Posted by severus68
Somehow, I do not think you understood what Julia Mae had to say but she will speak for herself I am sure.

The correct term is OF. **You appear to be putting down the OF **and that is against the rules of this forum. You may prefer the EF and you can say so but not by making disparaging remarks about the OF.

What part of it was late I coudnt think of what NOM stood for therefore I wrote in NO mass I rememberd the M part was Mass or Missae if you like you have difficulties understanding?

As far as the rest alter girls no alter rails and an army of Eucharistic ministers.female Eucharistic ministers,Eucharistic minister blessing the children These are liturgical abuses. I have every right in charity to speak my views when things are not followed in the rubrics

Can. 212 §3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

If you like I can address each and everyone of these this list is actually longer but you choose and I will take the time to explain If you want.

I will make it easy youtube.com/watch?v=gTwJx0X3kqE Alter GirlsCardinal Arinze
youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM&feature=related Alter Rails Cardinal Arinze

GIRM General Instructions of Roman Missal read it, learn it, Learn how to be Roman Catholic! These are the rules of the Holy Mother Church!

 

[TimothyH]

The Catholic Church has established more hospitals, more soup Kitchens, more orphanages than any other group in history. All while upholding and protecting the Deposit of Faith and Dogma handed down from Christ and the Apostles. Our Religious orders have provided more assistance to the impoverished and helpless than the UN will ever do! Throughout history The Church has been, and will continue to be the prime source of assistance to the Worlds oppressed. We do not need Liberation theology, Modernistic ideology or any other “new age” ideology to do what we have been doing Since the establishment of the Church on the shores of Galilee. What some fail to see, or refuse to acknowledge, is that true love of Neighbor comes from a True Love For God and His commandments. The Church has always taught this. Even before Vatican Council II.

Spend some time studying the encyclicals from Popes across the centuries and you will quickly discover that the Church has always cared for the less fortunate Just as Jesus commanded.

papalencyclicals.net/

This is great, but each of us are personally called to do the same.

Jesus will not take the excuse that we belonged to a church which did good and that we put a few dollars in the collection plate. We cannot claim for ourselves what others have done before us.

He will call each of us to account for what we did ourselves, not what the Church did, but what we personally contributed.

-Tim-

 

[Zosimus41]

Let me ask this…was there ever really a “clown Mass” done in a Catholic Church that is really part of a diocese with a Bishop in line with Rome?

Or is this a huge “urban legend” or something that made it’s way onto youtube and it really took place at a “broken off from Rome” uber-liberal church that has attempted to use the word “Catholic” in the name of it’s organization?

If it’s just a crude and offensive way to describe the Mass in OF, it’s pretty disrespectful to refer to the holy sacrifice of the Mass as a “clown Mass” just because it’s not to one’s personal liking or preferences.

**
with a Bishop in line with Rome?** I guess you could say that Bishop would not be inline with Rome. There are many Bishops not inlined with Rome. Thats another Subject.

Theres an association of women priest who claim they have been ordained by a Roman Catholic Bishop!

Check out this video youtube.com/watch?v=mPgQIceN2KM&feature=related

Look at how respectful the Latin Rite is compared to the NOM

People took “let a little fresh air into the church” with vatican two To new levels that were not expected by the council.

Why do you think Benedict has calmed down Life teen mass,Brought back the tabernacle
into the sacntuary,corrected Latin English translations i.e. and with your spirit instead of and also with you. Even the church agrees priest and bishops have allowed liberals to do things their way.

Thats why you see all these crazy things like people throwing up the orans posture back at the preist. Little girls dressed up like preist. The whole point for acolytes were to dress young men/boys in preist like vestments so they could get a feel of how it would be to be a preist and for them to be treated with respect so perhaps or maybe one day they would decide to become a preist. You seen how that has gone to the wayside due to liberals having things their way.

Technically the church has no rules to advise alter servers (as they are now called sort of a uni sex term) should be only male my best bet is they never thought it would happen in the first place because its just silly.

Rome calls Acolytes little clerics or one may say little preists

We are not Baptist or church of christ where you have the freedom to express yourself outside of the rules.

God is not democratic and Jesus died for our sins not so that we can sin.

The reason the church is divided between the modernist and traditionalist is not so much due to Vatican two but the liturgical abuses that happend afterwords.

The NOM is a wonderful mass when you dont have someone trying to grab your hand to say the Our Father or noone looks at you crazy for taking the Eucharist on your tongue
Or you stay in the pew because you have commited a mortal sin while everyone else jumps up to go to communion.

At times it seems Im the only one in my parish that commits mortal sins from time to time…LOL Really? only me?

My question is how many Catholics would remain Catholic if the church put her foot down and said "pray by the rules"

Lex orandi Lex Credendi How you pray is how you believe!

 

[surritter]

An altar server is not the same as an acolyte.

 

[Zosimus41]

Let me ask this…was there ever really a “clown Mass” done in a Catholic Church that is really part of a diocese with a Bishop in line with Rome?

Or is this a huge “urban legend” or something that made it’s way onto youtube and it really took place at a “broken off from Rome” uber-liberal church that has attempted to use the word “Catholic” in the name of it’s organization?

If it’s just a crude and offensive way to describe the Mass in OF, it’s pretty disrespectful to refer to the holy sacrifice of the Mass as a “clown Mass” just because it’s not to one’s personal liking or preferences.

If you like take out “clown Mass” alter girls bobbytail bouncing to and fro dressed up like a priest,no alter rails,an amry of Eucharistic ministers,no distinction between the sanctuary and the nave (the alter rail served more than one purpose) the high alter is all but gone,the tabernacle in and out of the sanctuary,people throwing around the orans posture all the while they have no clue in what they are doing or even why they use it.Eucharistic Ministers blessing the small children, -]Clown Masses/-],Clapping, People grabbing at you to hold their hand instead of respecting your right not to have to. etc…

These other liturgical abuses Im sure most of us have seen.Do you find them offensive aswell?

Or for the past 40 years you have been thinking this is well in the norm of Catholic Rubrics?

I didnt make this stuff up read your GIRM go to siminars By Cardinal Arinze, Michael Voris,Scott Hahn etc…

Written by: Fr. Peter Stravinskas
Category: Liturgy (CD)

**In his powerful 2003 encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (Church of the Eucharist) Pope John Paul II accused rampant liturgical abuse of jeopardizing “the very validity of the Eucharist”. **In his letter, the Holy Father promised a follow-up document to demand a point-by-point return to Eucharistic reverence, devotion and true doctrine. Well now that document, Redemptionis Sacramentum (Sacrament of Redemption) is finally here! And this new audio series from Fr. Peter Stravinskas is your key to understanding what the Vatican’s new instruction really means to you!

**Rome has Spoken - Is Anybody Listening? **

While this is great news for Catholics who have suffered from irreverent (and even shocking) liturgical novelties for years, you may rightly wonder if this will really stop liturgical abuse in your diocese

 

[Zosimus41]

An altar server is not the same as an acolyte.

Yes and thats my CASE AND POINT!

Acolytes are no longer called acolytes because little girls now adorn the vestments aswell…Get it?

My point is If you have noticed the alter severs wear a preist like robe the reason is it was for young men to have an apprenticeship to the preisthood. In hopes of one day they would decide to become a priest.

Of course the meanings or definitions would have to technically be different between acolyte and alter server. Females cannot be preist males can.

Acolyte As the definition means to follow a mentor as to one day fill his shoes.

 

[LightBound]

If you like take out “clown Mass” alter girls bobbytail bouncing to and fro dressed up like a priest,no alter rails,an amry of Eucharistic ministers,no distinction between the sanctuary and the nave (the alter rail served more than one purpose) the high alter is all but gone,the tabernacle in and out of the sanctuary,people throwing around the orans posture all the while they have no clue in what they are doing or even why they use it.Eucharistic Ministers blessing the small children, -]Clown Masses/-],Clapping, People grabbing at you to hold their hand instead of respecting your right not to have to. etc…

These other liturgical abuses Im sure most of us have seen.Do you find them offensive aswell?

Or for the past 40 years you have been thinking this is well in the norm of Catholic Rubrics?

I didnt make this stuff up read your GIRM go to siminars By Cardinal Arinze, Michael Voris,Scott Hahn etc…

Written by: Fr. Peter Stravinskas
Category: Liturgy (CD)

**In his powerful 2003 encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (Church of the Eucharist) Pope John Paul II accused rampant liturgical abuse of jeopardizing “the very validity of the Eucharist”. **In his letter, the Holy Father promised a follow-up document to demand a point-by-point return to Eucharistic reverence, devotion and true doctrine. Well now that document, Redemptionis Sacramentum (Sacrament of Redemption) is finally here! And this new audio series from Fr. Peter Stravinskas is your key to understanding what the Vatican’s new instruction really means to you!

**Rome has Spoken - Is Anybody Listening? **

While this is great news for Catholics who have suffered from irreverent (and even shocking) liturgical novelties for years, you may rightly wonder if this will really stop liturgical abuse in your diocese

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

As far as the rest alter girls no alter rails and an army of Eucharistic ministers.female Eucharistic ministers,Eucharistic minister blessing the children These are liturgical abuses. I have every right in charity to speak my views when things are not followed in the rubrics

Can. 212 §3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

GIRM General Instructions of Roman Missal read it, learn it, Learn how to be Roman Catholic! These are the rules of the Holy Mother Church!

Excuse me but altar girls, female EMHC’s are NOT abuses. That may be YOUR opinion that you do not like them BUT they are NOT abuses. PLEASE do not pretend to speak for Holy Mother Church when you do not have it right… What you posted was the opinion…,and opinion only of a cardinal. As I recall, the Pope himself thanked altar girls for their service.

 

[Dan_Daly]

While Altar servers who are female and EMHCs (male or female) are not abuses in and of themselves, there can be (and are) abuses associated with each.

Examples might be a situation where a priest is told by his bishop that he must use female altar servers or when EMHCs are used in an innappropriate manner.

Pax Christi

 

[LightBound]

If you like take out “clown Mass” alter girls bobbytail bouncing to and fro dressed up like a priest,no alter rails,an amry of Eucharistic ministers,no distinction between the sanctuary and the nave (the alter rail served more than one purpose) the high alter is all but gone,the tabernacle in and out of the sanctuary,people throwing around the orans posture all the while they have no clue in what they are doing or even why they use it.Eucharistic Ministers blessing the small children, -]Clown Masses/-],Clapping, People grabbing at you to hold their hand instead of respecting your right not to have to. etc…

These other liturgical abuses Im sure most of us have seen.Do you find them offensive aswell?

Or for the past 40 years you have been thinking this is well in the norm of Catholic Rubrics?

I didnt make this stuff up read your GIRM go to siminars By Cardinal Arinze, Michael Voris,Scott Hahn etc…

Written by: Fr. Peter Stravinskas
Category: Liturgy (CD)

**In his powerful 2003 encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (Church of the Eucharist) Pope John Paul II accused rampant liturgical abuse of jeopardizing “the very validity of the Eucharist”. **In his letter, the Holy Father promised a follow-up document to demand a point-by-point return to Eucharistic reverence, devotion and true doctrine. Well now that document, Redemptionis Sacramentum (Sacrament of Redemption) is finally here! And this new audio series from Fr. Peter Stravinskas is your key to understanding what the Vatican’s new instruction really means to you!

**Rome has Spoken - Is Anybody Listening? **

While this is great news for Catholics who have suffered from irreverent (and even shocking) liturgical novelties for years, you may rightly wonder if this will really stop liturgical abuse in your diocese

You might want to calm down, take a step back and realize that Mr Voris, Professor Hahn, Fr Stravinskas, and even Cardinal Arinze are not the Pope. What you describe as liturgical abuses, as already mentioned by Annabelle and Dan Daly, are not abuses in themselves.

 

[LightBound]

Excuse me but altar girls, female EMHC’s are NOT abuses. That may be YOUR opinion that you do not like them BUT they are NOT abuses. PLEASE do not pretend to speak for Holy Mother Church when you do not have it right… What you posted was the opinion…,and opinion only of a cardinal. As I recall, the Pope himself thanked altar girls for their service.