A Question on Heaven

[Morse]

In the Daodejing (The translation I’ve most often read is by Tolbert McCarroll), the first verse states:

"The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The name is the mother of the ten thousand things.

Send your desires away and you will see the mystery.
Be filled with desire and you will see only the manifestation.

As these two come forth they differ in name.
Yet at their source they are the same.
This source is called a mystery.

Darkness within darkness, the gateway to all mystery."

Specifically I’m curious as to what Catholics think on the topic of conceptualizing heaven. The Daodejing tells me that the Way cannot be comprehended, but rather must be experienced. One who idles and discusses the subject most likely will not understand the Dao in its fullness.

So I ask, can you perceive heaven? As a Catholic, do you believe that every and any attempt to phrase it in words is woefully inadequate? Do you think that your understanding of heaven is simply a vague notion or leaning toward more accurate? Is it possible to know what your eternal reward may possibly be?

 

[Nine_Two]

While I can’t speak for Catholicism, the Orthodox Church holds that neither God nor Heaven can be conceptualized, the Divine Liturgy stating rather explicitly that God is “ineffable”.

 

[GEddie]

You can experience Heaven via your spiritual senses, since you will be there (if at all) as a “spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma). And you mind can certainly think of it.

But you will never get a true sense of Heaven while drawing natural breath. The reason being, you are temporal, Heaven is eternal.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

1Cor 2:9 (RSV)

But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”

Hope that answers it for you

ps. I hate to be a bother but if you don’t mind, I could really use your (name removed by moderator)ut on my question to buddhists and taoists, Here. Thank you

 

[nablaise]

I found this text may be relevant and interesting for you.

Reality is always available to observe, and contemplate. Consider more seriously only that which come down to your heart and gives it life. This life you will feel it, and when you feel it you will know a taste of heaven.

God bless

 

[JeanMichel]

So I ask, can you perceive heaven? As a Catholic, do you believe that every and any attempt to phrase it in words is woefully inadequate? Do you think that your understanding of heaven is simply a vague notion or leaning toward more accurate? Is it possible to know what your eternal reward may possibly be?

Can you perceive heaven? No.
Attempts are woefully inadequate? Yes.
Vague notion? Yes.
Eternal reward? Beyond comprehension.

 

[wwolverine]

What I know of Heaven is that its UP. Jesus when He used to pray used to look UP, even when He was Baptised, The voice came from UP, so it signifies that Heaven is UP, now how up isnot known to me, as it impossible to guess who UP it can be,

I feel it has to be above the universe, and even with the latest technologies, scientists and astronomers have been unable to discover all that is in the space.

 

[Vico]

…
Specifically I’m curious as to what Catholics think on the topic of conceptualizing heaven. …
So I ask, can you perceive heaven? As a Catholic, do you believe that every and any attempt to phrase it in words is woefully inadequate? Do you think that your understanding of heaven is simply a vague notion or leaning toward more accurate? Is it possible to know what your eternal reward may possibly be?

Pope Benedict XII (1336) defined a dogma:
We define that the souls of all the saints in heaven have seen and do see the Divine Essence by direct intuition and face to face visione intuitivâ et etiam faciali], in such wise that nothing created intervenes as an object of vision, but the Divine Essence presents itself to their immediate gaze, unveiled, clearly and openly; moreover, that in this vision they enjoy the Divine Essence, and that, in virtue of this vision and this enjoyment, they are truly blessed and possess eternal life and eternal rest"

Denzinger, Enchiridion, ed. 10, n. 530–old edition, n, 456; cf. nn. 693, 1084, 1458 old, nn. 588, 868.

 

[Publisher]

Heaven will take care of itself…it is not nearly as important to us as THIS LIFE is…the things of this life should fill our time and expend our energy…to realize the “Kingdom of Heaven” here…now…“Thy will be done…on Earth…as it is in heaven…”

Eternity begins now…this day…let us not focus on an “unknowable” place…there’s plenty to do here…in the place we exist at the moment…the addage I’ve heard all my life seems very pertinent to the “question on heaven”…“Let us not become so heavenly minded, we become no earthly good.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Pope Benedict XII (1336) defined a dogma:
We define that the souls of all the saints in heaven have seen and do see the Divine Essence by direct intuition and face to face visione intuitivâ et etiam faciali], in such wise that nothing created intervenes as an object of vision, but the Divine Essence presents itself to their immediate gaze, unveiled, clearly and openly; moreover, that in this vision they enjoy the Divine Essence, and that, in virtue of this vision and this enjoyment, they are truly blessed and possess eternal life and eternal rest"

Denzinger, Enchiridion, ed. 10, n. 530–old edition, n, 456; cf. nn. 693, 1084, 1458 old, nn. 588, 868.

Sounds like he’s defining the experience of the Mystics. The Mystics are directly experiencing the Lord as the Lord wills this to happen. The experience is internal not external. The eye’s of the soul clearly see’s what God wills it to see, and when He wills the soul to see. There’s no control over this. The Lord is always with us, always. His world, and He’s King, may He be Blessed forever.

This life is only the process which lead to life. Your a visitor by Gods will to do Gods will. The quicker one understands this, the less of an issue the physical world is in relation to the next which is eternity.

All the Glory all the time is the Lords. Your here to serve the Lord not yourself.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GEddie]

Heaven will take care of itself…it is not nearly as important to us as THIS LIFE is…the things of this life should fill our time and expend our energy…to realize the “Kingdom of Heaven” here…now…“Thy will be done…on Earth…as it is in heaven…”

So what, then, when THIS LIFE runs out, for you or someone close to you?

Eternity begins now…this day…let us not focus on an “unknowable” place…there’s plenty to do here…in the place we exist at the moment…the addage I’ve heard all my life seems very pertinent to the “question on heaven”…“Let us not become so heavenly minded, we become no earthly good.”

For every one who fits into that category, there are scores who are “so earthly minded that they are no Heavenly good.”

ICXC NIKA.

 

[rinnie]

In the Daodejing (The translation I’ve most often read is by Tolbert McCarroll), the first verse states:

"The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The name is the mother of the ten thousand things.

Send your desires away and you will see the mystery.
Be filled with desire and you will see only the manifestation.

As these two come forth they differ in name.
Yet at their source they are the same.
This source is called a mystery.

Darkness within darkness, the gateway to all mystery."

Specifically I’m curious as to what Catholics think on the topic of conceptualizing heaven. The Daodejing tells me that the Way cannot be comprehended, but rather must be experienced. One who idles and discusses the subject most likely will not understand the Dao in its fullness.

So I ask, can you perceive heaven? As a Catholic, do you believe that every and any attempt to phrase it in words is woefully inadequate? Do you think that your understanding of heaven is simply a vague notion or leaning toward more accurate? Is it possible to know what your eternal reward may possibly be?

No eye has seen, no ear has heard what God has ready for those who love him.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

No eye has seen, no ear has heard what God has ready for those who love him.

I agree with this.

What is funny is that the Tao Te Ching passage you quoted implies there is a “heavenly place.” The thing is, Taoism tends to be pantheistic--------one joins the Universe and whatever one conceives “God” to be-----it does not really talk of a “place” one goes to after death.

Taoism is a Philosophy/Religion of the here and now, not really concerned with the afterlife.

But ultimately, Heaven is beyond description or conception.

I agree with the Christian conception of Heaven ultimately. Good thread, though.

 

[GloriousOrder]

I think that, despite the famous quote from St. Paul, it is possible to conceptualise at least the framework of Heaven, in which God will give us everything we have not seen, heard, or thought about. The Dominican Order is very good on this, always portraying its saints in a heavenly golden light, and speaking of the piercing majesty of God in their writings. There is generally a light-filled quality to Dominican theology, whereas Franciscans might explain Heaven in light of angels, or Carmelites might explain it in terms of pure unseeing mystical contemplation.

I believe our Eastern friends call it the Phos Hilarion, the “gladsome light” or “joyful light” (correct me if it’s wrong). God is a spirit, the spirit of truth (St. John 4:24), and thus we know His realm has no bounds, just as He has no bounds. Heaven is pure joyous, eternal, glorious light - though the words “pure”, “joy”, “eternity”, “glory”, and “light” mean nothing when you actually begin to think and imagine it in your mind. It is so far beyond our human ability to imagine it that it can only be conceived in the head as a state, not imagined in the mind as a place or time.

Just remember that something which is unimaginable does not necessarily have to be inconceivable. The human mind cannot imagine God, but it can conceive of Him by reason and faith.

 

[z0wb13]

@Morse: as one taoist to another, you do realize there is no afterlife;p

 

[Morse]

@Morse: as one taoist to another, you do realize there is no afterlife;p

I prefer to abstain from concretely identifying with any religion on that topic. I just posed the question to stimulate discussion and learn of the perspectives of others. Never did I mention my personal belief!

I wouldn’t call myself pure Daoist either, for I take quite a lot from Buddhism as well.

I agree with this.

What is funny is that the Tao Te Ching passage you quoted implies there is a “heavenly place.” The thing is, Taoism tends to be pantheistic--------one joins the Universe and whatever one conceives “God” to be-----it does not really talk of a “place” one goes to after death.

Taoism is a Philosophy/Religion of the here and now, not really concerned with the afterlife.

But ultimately, Heaven is beyond description or conception.

I agree with the Christian conception of Heaven ultimately. Good thread, though.

Yes I’m aware that Daoism is pantheistic, as am I.

I actually should have asked if the Catholic God can be conceptualized, because that’s a better translation for the Dao. I was asking more whether your religion’s ideal of “sacredness” can be conceptualized, rather than the afterlife. This is where I admit to my blunder.

Catholic Sacredness → Daoist Sacredness.
Rather than
Catholic Afterlife → Daoist Sacredness.
If that makes any sense to you.

But I would suppose the obvious answer to whether “Can God be conceptualized” is a big No, so maybe this thread was better for my mistake.

 

[rinnie]

Heaven will take care of itself…it is not nearly as important to us as THIS LIFE is…the things of this life should fill our time and expend our energy…to realize the “Kingdom of Heaven” here…now…“Thy will be done…on Earth…as it is in heaven…”

Eternity begins now…this day…let us not focus on an “unknowable” place…there’s plenty to do here…in the place we exist at the moment…the addage I’ve heard all my life seems very pertinent to the “question on heaven”…“Let us not become so heavenly minded, we become no earthly good.”

Hi Publisher, if Eternity BEGINS now, then why does it not last forever, if eternity is so important in this life, why do we not have it?

IF the Kingdom of heaven is here now, Why does Christ say the Kingdom of heaven is NEAR not Here?

Is not Eternal life in Christ mean FOREVER? If you sin in this world you are dead, it is your soul that gives you eternal life in Christ, not your living body. The living body is not eternal. That is why this world is not eternal. If this world were eternal we would have not death.

But this world is not eternal, simply because we have death, Eternal life in Christ does last forever, because it means exactly what it says, INNER life our soul. Our soul does not die, it lives on forever, of course unless it is dead with sin. Then is will not live on forever with Christ. It will be in hell, which means to be separated forever from Christ.

Just as you yourself quoted On earth as it is in Heaven. They are 2 separate places.

 

[Publisher]

Hi Publisher, if Eternity BEGINS now, then why does it not last forever, if eternity is so important in this life, why do we not have it?

IF the Kingdom of heaven is here now, Why does Christ say the Kingdom of heaven is NEAR not Here?

Is not Eternal life in Christ mean FOREVER? If you sin in this world you are dead, it is your soul that gives you eternal life in Christ, not your living body. The living body is not eternal. That is why this world is not eternal. If this world were eternal we would have not death.

But this world is not eternal, simply because we have death, Eternal life in Christ does last forever, because it means exactly what it says, INNER life our soul. Our soul does not die, it lives on forever, of course unless it is dead with sin. Then is will not live on forever with Christ. It will be in hell, which means to be separated forever from Christ.

Just as you yourself quoted On earth as it is in Heaven. They are 2 separate places.

“The Kingdom of God is within you”…or**…“The Kingdom of God is in your midst.”**

“… giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

" I have come that you may have life…and have it more abundantly"

All the teachings of Jesus center in THIS VERY REAL WORLD…time is a human construct…Eternity IS now…so we should live by eternal principles as people who exist in eternity.

" giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from(D) the domain of darkness and** transferred us to he kingdom o his beloved Son, ** in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;** but is passed from death unto life.**

“Eternal Life” IS now…not later.

But you must live and believe as you…live and believe.

 

[rinnie]

“The Kingdom of God is within you”…or**…“The Kingdom of God is in your midst.”**

“… giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

" I have come that you may have life…and have it more abundantly"

All the teachings of Jesus center in THIS VERY REAL WORLD…time is a human construct…Eternity IS now…so we should live by eternal principles as people who exist in eternity.

" giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from(D) the domain of darkness and** transferred us to he kingdom o his beloved Son, ** in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;** but is passed from death unto life.**

“Eternal Life” IS now…not later.

But you must live and believe as you…live and believe.

Okay, I can agree with you that how we live in this world is going to bring us to eternal life in Christ or Life of the soul or eternal death or death of the soul.

And I agree that to have eternal life, is to live in Christ. ANd yes we do have to live in this world according to the word and commands of Christ to live with him in the next.

So I guess we are on the same page here

 

[steveb1]

The modern western worldview leaves us with few mysteries, but religion does preserve some. Even Paul, who apparently was the “man I knew” who went to heaven … where he heard unutterable things, leaves it as a Mystery. It is not a mere daydream - it can be experienced. But it is ineffable.