A question on John 3:6 & Works

[wmscott]

Just a thought and a question. There has been lot of discussions regarding “Works” and there are the usual responses from both sides. What I have not seen is what was quoted in this Sundays Gospel reading.

*John 6:26-30

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled.
27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”
28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
30 So they said to him, "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? *

Why do the people ask how to do the works of God, and why is Christ citing works of God. Why did he just not say have Faith?

For some reason this really stuck out to me this Sunday.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Why do the people ask how to do the works of God, and why is Christ citing works of God. Why did he just not say have Faith?

Even at times in Scripture when the answer given to how do we get salvation is “believe,” that believing entails following Christ. After all, if you believe He is the Son of God, then you want to follow Him. That’s an inseparable characteristic of believing in Him.

Unfortunately, modernism treats the words “have faith in” or “believe” simply as an intellectual recognition.

 

[steve_b]

Just a thought and a question. There has been lot of discussions regarding “Works” and there are the usual responses from both sides. What I have not seen is what was quoted in this Sundays Gospel reading.

John 6:26-30

*26 Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. *
*27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.” *
*28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” *
*29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.” *
*30 So they said to him, "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? *

Why do the people ask how to do the works of God, and why is Christ citing works of God. Why did he just not say have Faith?

For some reason this really stuck out to me this Sunday.

Faith is dead without doing what faith requires.

This passage from the gospel of John, is the beginning of the bread of life discourse…instruction on the eucharist. The followers found offensive what Jesus was teaching them. And they left Jesus over it. Their actions says plenty about … THEM and THEIR faith

 

[wmscott]

Faith is dead without doing what faith requires.

This passage from the gospel of John, is the beginning of the bread of life discourse…instruction on the eucharist. The followers found offensive what Jesus was teaching them. And they left Jesus over it. Their actions says plenty about … THEM and THEIR faith

I agree that Faith without Works is dead. There has been a lot of discussion here regarding this subject. Some Protestants take the Faith alone approach or that works is not required. The citations in favor Works and Faith usually centered on James and other books. These verses in Sundays Gospel reading jumped out at me that it was Christ himself saying that there is more than just a belief, that to follow him there was things that needed to be done (works).

 

[SyCarl]

I agree that Faith without Works is dead. There has been a lot of discussion here regarding this subject. Some Protestants take the Faith alone approach or that works is not required. The citations in favor Works and Faith usually centered on James and other books. These verses in Sundays Gospel reading jumped out at me that it was Christ himself saying that there is more than just a belief, that to follow him there was things that needed to be done (works).

I think the most that can be said about this passage is that Jesus is calling belief, i.e. faith, a work. That does not mean that any other works are required. I have no problem with calling faith itself a work.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I think the most that can be said about this passage is that Jesus is calling belief, i.e. faith, a work. That does not mean that any other works are required. I have no problem with calling faith itself a work.

Tell me if I have a good understanding of what many Protestants mean by faith alone. Either it is

a) what I asserted above, that faith is seen as a recognition when they read the word “believe” in Scripture; or

b) when they read stories like the Good Thief, they see that he was saved after he professed Jesus as Christ (and he also repented…ahem), therefore since the Good Thief attained salvation without being baptized (as far as we know) or receiving communion after his conversion, or doing works of charity after his conversion, therefore no one need do these things after their conversion.

Would you say one of these options is most common among today’s Protestants?

 

[SyCarl]

Tell me if I have a good understanding of what many Protestants mean by faith alone. Either it is

a) what I asserted above, that faith is seen as a recognition when they read the word “believe” in Scripture; or

b) when they read stories like the Good Thief, they see that he was saved after he professed Jesus as Christ (and he also repented…ahem), therefore since the Good Thief attained salvation without being baptized (as far as we know) or receiving communion after his conversion, or doing works of charity after his conversion, therefore no one need do these things after their conversion.

Would you say one of these options is most common among today’s Protestants?

I actually prefer the wording of Ephesians 2:8, that we are saved through faith. We are saved by grace while faith is only the means through which we accept that grace.

Saving faith or belief is more than just an intellectual assent; it requires hoping for and relying on what is believed intellectual. With respect to needing anything else, it depends on what you mean by need. If we have true saving faith then there is no absolute necessity of anything else. However we have a duty to be baptized and do good works because that is what Jesus tells us He wants.

Perhaps I can illustrate what I mean. We can obtain a driver’s license. This is what we need to be allowed to drive. Once we receive the license we are expected to obey the rules of the road. However we don’t gain anything more or any reward for obeying them. We do it because it is our duty to do so.

I don’t know if this illustration makes sense to you. We will do good works because Jesus wants us to, not to obtain a reward. Good works show our faith and are a necessary result of it. They don’t merit anything though since we already owe more than we can ever do.

 

[PJM]

=wmscott-Just a thought and a question. There has been lot of discussions regarding “Works” and there are the usual responses from both sides. What I have not seen is what was quoted in this Sundays Gospel reading.

*John 6:26-30

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled.
27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”
28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
30 So they said to him, "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? *

Why do the people ask how to do the works of God, and why is Christ citing works of God. Why did he just not say have Faith? .

***Because the process of Salvation as determined by Christ requires BOTH WORKS and FAITH. Neither alone, will get one to heaven. Please see Jn. 3:5, 3:36. Mt. 19:16 for example. And All of Mt. Chapter 5 plays in the process.

The people ask Christ and He tells them to have Faith in verse 29. But that by itself is insufficient. So Christ in the GREATEST sacrifice of all time, becomes our Bread and our Wine, the Perfect God, become theee perfect Grace so that we can obey, endure, cooperate with His plan for our personal salvation.[See Jn.6: 40-60 ]***

 

[steve_b]

I actually prefer the wording of Ephesians 2:8, that we are saved through faith. We are saved by grace while faith is only the means through which we accept that grace.

The thought needs to be completed. There is a distinction between works of law and good works.

Eph 2:
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We know what will happen to the one who doesn’t do good works that they were created by God to do?
SC:

We will do good works because Jesus wants us to, not to obtain a reward. Good works show our faith and are a necessary result of it. They don’t merit anything though since we already owe more than we can ever do.

Obedience and good works come from faith. Doing good works from faith DOES bring about rewards. That’s because DOING what God wants IS meritorious. God crowns the good work we do that He prepared in advance for us to do. Just as NOT doing good works brings about condemnation for THAT soul who doesn’t do what God created him to do.

Mt 25:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[MarcoPolo]

We will do good works because Jesus wants us to, not to obtain a reward. Good works show our faith and are a necessary result of it. They don’t merit anything though since we already owe more than we can ever do.

So we both believe in grace alone salvation. Great!

Our good works are done in Christ though, no? Our spirit cooperating with His? How can works done by the power of Christ have no value?

What do you make of the Good Thief as I described above?

 

[SyCarl]

So we both believe in grace alone salvation. Great!

Our good works are done in Christ though, no? Our spirit cooperating with His? How can works done by the power of Christ have no value?

What do you make of the Good Thief as I described above?

It is not that our works don’t have value and they may be rewarded in the sense of having a higher standing in the Kingdom of Heaven, in the sense of Luke 14:8-11.

"When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this man,’ and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. “For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 14:8-11 NASB)

However such a reward is entirely gratuitous; nothing is owed to us. Jesus also says:

"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’” (Luke 17:9-10 NASB)

Our works do not merit anything because grace excludes doing anything to merit something. Paul emphasizes this a couple of places in Romans.

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:4-5 NASB)

and

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. (Romans 11:6 NASB)

That these are not ceremonial works of the Jewish law is made clear in Romans 2 where Paul includes theft, adultery and idolatry as violations of the law. These are not ceremonial.

Nothing is due to us because we already owe all that we can do and more.

The early church fathers appear to recognize the distinction I am making. Clement of Rome, for example says:

And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

(Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 32)
newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Note that Clement excludes works wrought in holiness of heart which would seem to refer to works after regeneration. Yet he recognizes the importance of works as in the very next chapter he urges continuing in works.

Augustine also recognizes that our works don’t merit justification, although in some places he has difficulty reconciling grace with rewards and ends up call the rewards as grace for grace.

Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,—in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace.

(Treatise on the Spirit and the Letter, Chapter 22)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xi.xxv.html

My problem with the Catholic position stems from the Council of Trent which stated:

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

Now even if the good works are the gifts of God, I cannot accept that they merit increase of grace and eternal life. To me saying we merit grace is an oxymoron. However, if it is recognized that works come from God’s grace, many differences in positions I believe are largely semantic.

With respect to the thief on the cross, yes he is an example of one who is saved through faith without baptism, the Eucharist and good works. Origen, I believe in his orthodox period agreed.

It remains for us who are trying to affirm everything the apostle says, and to do so in the proper order, to inquire who is justified by faith alone, apart from works. If an example is required, I think it must suffice to mention the thief on the cross, who asked Christ to save him and was told: “Truly. This day you will be with me in paradise…A man is justified by faith. The works of the law can make no contribution to this. Where there is no faith which might justify the believer, even if there are works of the law these are not based on the foundation of faith. Even if they are good in themselves they cannot justify the one who does them, because faith is lacking, and faith is the mark of those who are justified by God.

(Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 100))

Normally a person should have good works as the fruit of his faith and in their absence the reality of the professed faith is in question. I referred to Ephesians 2 previously.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB)

We are saved by grace, through faith, for work, not by or through those works.

I apologize about the length of my response and hope I have answered your questions.

 

[wmscott]

Even at times in Scripture when the answer given to how do we get salvation is “believe,” that believing entails following Christ. After all, if you believe He is the Son of God, then you want to follow Him. That’s an inseparable characteristic of believing in Him.

Unfortunately, modernism treats the words “have faith in” or “believe” simply as an intellectual recognition.

So in effect, following Christ is “Works”, one of many types of works required of us.

 

[WASP]

The Reformers recognized 3 elements of faith (and I think they are correct):

Notitia–We must have knowledge of the facts of the Gospel, e.g. Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Assensus–We must mentally assent to those facts of the Gospel, agreeing that they are true.

Fiducia–We must personally entrust our being to Christ and His work for us.

According to the doctrine of sola fide, faith is all that is required for eternal life with God. Note that faith as described above is totally focused on the inner man. There is no mention of external deeds or actions. Romans 4:5 most clearly explains this. “And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”

As applied to the Thief on the Cross, we see these elements played out in Luke 23:40-43. The thief knew that Jesus was innocent and that he was the Son of Man (Jesus would rule over His kingdom someday). He mentally agreed they were true. He entrusted his soul and his future to Christ. Jesus promised the Thief paradise on the basis of faith alone.

Now let’s assume that this man somehow escaped from his cross. If his faith is real, he would demonstrate his faith by doing good works. If his faith was not, his life would remain unchanged. Note 1 John 2:19 where John wrote that we know that men who left the church (“went out from us”) were not really believers, i.e. their faith was not true. How do we know? Because those who have true faith continue in that faith. Jesus said in John 15 that Christians will bear fruit. In Galatians 5, Paul speaks of the fruit of the Spirit. These characteristics occur naturally (so to speak) in the life of the believer.

There is a saying that I find helpful: Faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone. Faith alone is required for salvation (eternal life), but that faith will always produce good works. Otherwise, as James 2 says, that faith is dead.

 

[steve_b]

It is not that our works don’t have value and they may be rewarded in the sense of having a higher standing in the Kingdom of Heaven, in the sense of Luke 14:8-11.

In the final judgement, The one who didn’t do good works doesn’t even make it to heaven. [Mt 25:34…]
SC:

Our works do not merit anything because grace excludes doing anything to merit something. Paul emphasizes this a couple of places in Romans.

Define merit as you understand it
SC:

That these are not ceremonial works of the Jewish law is made clear in Romans 2 where Paul includes theft, adultery and idolatry as violations of the law. These are not ceremonial.

Can you be an adulterer or idoloter and go to heaven?
SC:

The early church fathers appear to recognize the distinction I am making. Clement of Rome, for example says:

(Epistle to the Corinthians,** Chapter 32**)
newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Note that Clement excludes works wrought in holiness of heart which would seem to refer to works after regeneration. Yet he recognizes the importance of works as in the very next chapter he urges continuing in works.

Keep reading
**Chapter 34. **

Great is the Reward of Good Works with God. Joined Together in Harmony, Let Us Implore that Reward from Him.
SC:

Augustine also recognizes that our works don’t merit justification, although in some places he has difficulty reconciling grace with rewards and ends up call the rewards as grace for grace.

(Treatise on the Spirit and the Letter, Chapter 22)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xi.xxv.html

You’re trying to project Protestant theology back onto the Church. It doesn’t work.
SC:

My problem with the Catholic position stems from the Council of Trent which stated:

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

Now even if the good works are the gifts of God, I cannot accept that they merit increase of grace and eternal life. To me saying we merit grace is an oxymoron. However, if it is recognized that works come from God’s grace, many differences in positions I believe are largely semantic.

Isn’t this distinction explained in Eph 2:8-10 ? Protestants in these discussions routinely leave out v 10 as you did earlier.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5524143&postcount=9

We have free will and purpose. We can choose to be obedient to God or not. We can choose to respond to grace or not. And there are consequences to our actions because of free will
SC:

With respect to the thief on the cross, yes he is an example of one who is saved through faith without baptism, the Eucharist and good works.

This conversation has come up in different forums.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5049691&postcount=22 differences in this account
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5045773&postcount=17 faith + works

 

[MarcoPolo]

We are saved by grace, through faith, for work, not by or through those works.

I apologize about the length of my response and hope I have answered your questions.

Indeed, I’m not a fisker so I won’t be going point by point here, other than I disagree with the works are only for “better reward,” and not an inseparable part of a singular faith-works concept as James describes in James 2:26. Quotes like Clement are very Catholic, we don’t feel it is the power of our works that save either. Remember what I said about Christ’s power working through us. Through Him, with Him, in Him…as Scripture says… The Trent quote, read carefully, says that our good works ARE His good works…through us.

One of the problems I have with the Protestant retreat from works is the affront to God’s generosity that results.

 

[MarcoPolo]

In the final judgement, The one who didn’t do good works doesn’t even make it to heaKeep reading
**Chapter 34. **

Great is the Reward of Good Works with God. Joined Together in Harmony, Let Us Implore that Reward from Him.

Also do not forget Clement, paragraph 30:"For God, [says the Scripture], resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words. For [the Scripture] says, He that speaks much, shall also hear much in answer. And does he that is ready in speech deem himself righteous? Blessed is he that is born of woman, who lives but a short time: be not given to much speaking. Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hates those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers. Boldness, and arrogance, and audacity belong to those that are accursed of God; but moderation, humility, and meekness to such as are blessed by Him.

 

[wmscott]

I think the most that can be said about this passage is that Jesus is calling belief, i.e. faith, a work. That does not mean that any other works are required. I have no problem with calling faith itself a work.

So, are you saying that all that is required of me is faith? That there is nothing else required of me to ensure my salvation? What about feeding the hungry or clothing the naked? If I forgive a debt or perform an act of mercy, am I not doing as Christ wants us to do? Am I not required to do these works of charity as Christ wants us to do? Did He not say that when we do these things, we are doing them for Him. To deny these things is to deny Christ is it not? Are you saying that if I just have faith I can sit back in my own little universe, not give a hoot about anyone or anything, just as long as I have faith I am good to go?

Sounds a little selfish to me.

 

[PJM]

It is not that our works don’t have value and they may be rewarded in the sense of having a higher standing in the Kingdom of Heaven, in the sense of Luke 14:8-11.

However such a reward is entirely gratuitous; nothing is owed to us. Jesus also says:

Our works do not merit anything because grace excludes doing anything to merit something. Paul emphasizes this a couple of places in Romans.

and

That these are not ceremonial works of the Jewish law is made clear in Romans 2 where Paul includes theft, adultery and idolatry as violations of the law. These are not ceremonial.

Nothing is due to us because we already owe all that we can do and more.

The early church fathers appear to recognize the distinction I am making. Clement of Rome, for example says:

(Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 32)
newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Note that Clement excludes works wrought in holiness of heart which would seem to refer to works after regeneration. Yet he recognizes the importance of works as in the very next chapter he urges continuing in works.

Augustine also recognizes that our works don’t merit justification, although in some places he has difficulty reconciling grace with rewards and ends up call the rewards as grace for grace.

(Treatise on the Spirit and the Letter, Chapter 22)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xi.xxv.html

My problem with the Catholic position stems from the Council of Trent which stated:

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

Now even if the good works are the gifts of God, I cannot accept that they merit increase of grace and eternal life. To me saying we merit grace is an oxymoron. However, if it is recognized that works come from God’s grace, many differences in positions I believe are largely semantic.

With respect to the thief on the cross, yes he is an example of one who is saved through faith without baptism, the Eucharist and good works. Origen, I believe in his orthodox period agreed.

(Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 100))

Normally a person should have good works as the fruit of his faith and in their absence the reality of the professed faith is in question. I referred to Ephesians 2 previously.

We are saved by grace, through faith, for work, not by or through those works.

I apologize about the length of my response and hope I have answered your questions.

In all respects an excellent responce. Thank you

 

[SyCarl]

In reply to various posters I am going to condense my response to one rather than numerous shorter ones.

It should be recognized that sola fide does not deny the necessity of works but the effect of them. Works are necessary because they are what Jesus wants. If we have faith, we do works because we want to do what He wants, not because we are trying to receive something. Our works do not bring us salvation which is entirely by God’s free gift (grace) to us. We do not merit anything from God except condemnation for our sins. I will define merit as it is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P70.HTM

Now the Catechism does go on to say that with regard to God there can be no strict merit on the part of man and that the merit of our works is a gift of God. The Council of Trent does not appear to make this distinction. It is based on the Catechism that I have said that I think our differences are largely semantic. If our “merits” are really a gift in themselves, can it be said that we really merit anything?

However one cannot merit a gift since if something is owed as recompense for something it is no longer a gift. This is the point that Paul makes in Romans.

Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.
(Romans 4:4 RSV)

and

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
(Romans 11:6 RSV)

Now because our works do not merit eternal life does not mean that we can do anything that we want and ignore good works. We do good works because Jesus wants us to and we want to please Him, not because we want something. We do good works because we have been given a gift, not to obtain a gift. We do good works to be confident in our faith and to see that our faith is real. We do good works to shine before men so that they will glorify God. We have a duty to do good works not to be saved but because we are saved. This is all part of the ongoing process of sanctification as we strive to become more righteous.

This view is not an affront to God’s generosity but in fact emphasizes that generosity. It recognizes that everything we have, including faith and good works, is the result of that generosity.

To me faith alone is not what has been called easy believism. It is not easy because it goes entirely against our human experience. We expect to have to earn things; to receive things as a result of what we do. It is difficult to do something entirely out of love and not for the purpose of a reward. I don’t know that I have ever done something that truly meets that standard. That we don’t receive anything for nothing; that we must earn what we get is the wisdom of the world. The foolishness of the Gospel is that God gives it all as a gift.

When I refer to the Church Fathers I am not trying to project Protestant theology back on them. That is always a risk for both Protestants and Catholics. We cannot assume when we use an expression that the Church Fathers also used that it means the same thing then as it means to us now. However, I do think that what was acceptable then was much broader that what the Church accepts now. I will not post page after page from Fathers referring to faith alone as if it was a perfectly orthodox view. Neither will I post the many citations where they refer to good works as the evidence or proof of faith, especially when reconciling Paul and James.

I think that most of us recognize faith and works are connected whether or not we think that salvation is from faith and works or faith that works. I don’t expect that God will penalize us because we might express His workings somewhat differently because if we could understand them perfectly He would not be God, whose ways and thoughts are way beyond us. My purpose on these boards is to find common ground in our beliefs, when they are properly understood.

 

[wmscott]

In reply to various posters I am going to condense my response to one rather than numerous shorter ones.

It should be recognized that sola fide does not deny the necessity of works but the effect of them. Works are necessary because they are what Jesus wants. If we have faith, we do works because we want to do what He wants, not because we are trying to receive something. Our works do not bring us salvation which is entirely by God’s free gift (grace) to us. We do not merit anything from God except condemnation for our sins. I will define merit as it is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P70.HTM

Now the Catechism does go on to say that with regard to God there can be no strict merit on the part of man and that the merit of our works is a gift of God. The Council of Trent does not appear to make this distinction. It is based on the Catechism that I have said that I think our differences are largely semantic. If our “merits” are really a gift in themselves, can it be said that we really merit anything?

However one cannot merit a gift since if something is owed as recompense for something it is no longer a gift. This is the point that Paul makes in Romans.

and

Now because our works do not merit eternal life does not mean that we can do anything that we want and ignore good works. We do good works because Jesus wants us to and we want to please Him, not because we want something. We do good works because we have been given a gift, not to obtain a gift. We do good works to be confident in our faith and to see that our faith is real. We do good works to shine before men so that they will glorify God. We have a duty to do good works not to be saved but because we are saved. This is all part of the ongoing process of sanctification as we strive to become more righteous.

This view is not an affront to God’s generosity but in fact emphasizes that generosity. It recognizes that everything we have, including faith and good works, is the result of that generosity.

To me faith alone is not what has been called easy believism. It is not easy because it goes entirely against our human experience. We expect to have to earn things; to receive things as a result of what we do. It is difficult to do something entirely out of love and not for the purpose of a reward. I don’t know that I have ever done something that truly meets that standard. That we don’t receive anything for nothing; that we must earn what we get is the wisdom of the world. The foolishness of the Gospel is that God gives it all as a gift.

When I refer to the Church Fathers I am not trying to project Protestant theology back on them. That is always a risk for both Protestants and Catholics. We cannot assume when we use an expression that the Church Fathers also used that it means the same thing then as it means to us now. However, I do think that what was acceptable then was much broader that what the Church accepts now. I will not post page after page from Fathers referring to faith alone as if it was a perfectly orthodox view. Neither will I post the many citations where they refer to good works as the evidence or proof of faith, especially when reconciling Paul and James.

I think that most of us recognize faith and works are connected whether or not we think that salvation is from faith and works or faith that works. I don’t expect that God will penalize us because we might express His workings somewhat differently because if we could understand them perfectly He would not be God, whose ways and thoughts are way beyond us. My purpose on these boards is to find common ground in our beliefs, when they are properly understood.

I guess I am looking for a more direct answer. The question I was trying to ask you is “If I have faith, and do absolutely nothing else, is salvation assured”? this is really a yes or no question, please do not try to skirt the questions with commentary and personal beliefs. Thanks.