A question on kneeling vs. standing for Communion in GIRM

[Canto]

For centuries people knelt and I’ve never read stories of major problems, people tripping over each other, etc.

In relation to the GIRM quoted by the OP it is interesting that the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments stated:

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”. (Prot. n. 47 / 03 / L )

 

[laszlo]

Our numbers now are at most 150 (from a parish of about 1500). The priest distributes the Hosts and we usually have an EMHC on each side with a chalice. At less attended Masses we only have one minister of the Cup. Time, 5 - 7 minutes? I’ve never timed it. I hardly think that when Rome allowed EMHCs to avoid Communion being unduly prolonged that they had 10-15 minutes in mind.

Around here (Chicago suburbs) the average parish has 4000 registered families (10,000 parishioners) and the average number receiving is above 400. So multiply your numbers by 3, and you will see why is the standard the process, standing and multiple ministers.

 

[jantoniello]

So the entire turn on tradition as a norm comes from setting up a new tradition? It doesn’t seem to make sense. Also, with so many people receiving, it seems like it would be more viable to have Communion under one species.

I’ve never noticed a 4 yard space necessity, and I kneel weekly to receive Holy Communion at a Novus Ordo parish. That doesn’t seem to make sense. Where are these numbers coming from?

I still think that no one has sufficiently answered the question, so I will re-phrase: What are the reasons the Bishops have given for the “standing to receive” norm? Either way, there is no obligation to take this norm: the USCCB is an advisory council.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

So the entire turn on tradition as a norm comes from setting up a new tradition? It doesn’t seem to make sense. Also, with so many people receiving, it seems like it would be more viable to have Communion under one species.

I’ve never noticed a 4 yard space necessity, and I kneel weekly to receive Holy Communion at a Novus Ordo parish. That doesn’t seem to make sense. Where are these numbers coming from?

I still think that no one has sufficiently answered the question, so I will re-phrase: What are the reasons the Bishops have given for the “standing to receive” norm? Either way, there is no obligation to take this norm: the USCCB is an advisory council.

Re: the bolded part.
I do not believe that any reasons need to be given. The Episcopal Confrences (what the USCCB is in the US) were instructed by the Vatican to make a choice-*** meaning one or the other. ***The USCCB made it’s decision,as a Catholic in the US, I abide by it.
Regarding the USCCB just being an advisory council, I do not believe that is entirely correct. Each Episcopal Conference is basically in charge of interpreting the rules of the Church for it’s particular area.

On a side note- I learned in my Sacramental Theology class that what most people believe about the “management structure” of the Chruch is incorrect. Yes, the Pope is the head of the Church, but, by delegating Cardinals & Bishops, the Pope has given them pretty wide latitude in interpreting things for their particular areas. In other words, the Pope does not “micro-manage”.

 

[drforjc]

Re: the bolded part.
I do not believe that any reasons need to be given. The Episcopal Confrences (what the USCCB is in the US) were instructed by the Vatican to make a choice-*** meaning one or the other. ***The USCCB made it’s decision,as a Catholic in the US, I abide by it.
Regarding the USCCB just being an advisory council, I do not believe that is entirely correct. Each Episcopal Conference is basically in charge of interpreting the rules of the Church for it’s particular area.

On a side note- I learned in my Sacramental Theology class that what most people believe about the “management structure” of the Chruch is incorrect. Yes, the Pope is the head of the Church, but, by delegating Cardinals & Bishops, the Pope has given them pretty wide latitude in interpreting things for their particular areas. In other words, the Pope does not “micro-manage”.

If you read “Canto”'s post three above your own, you will see the documentation from the CDWDS stipulating that the “norm of standing” was granted only under the condition that those who desired to kneel would be free to do so. You may choose to follow the (conditional) norm, and that is fine. Likewise, the Vatican has clarified, subsequent to the US GIRM adaptation RE: “norm of standing,” that those who choose to receive kneeling are free to do so and are not to be accused of disobedience.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

If you read “Canto”'s post three above your own, you will see the documentation from the CDWDS stipulating that the “norm of standing” was granted only under the condition that those who desired to kneel would be free to do so. You may choose to follow the (conditional) norm, and that is fine. Likewise, the Vatican has clarified, subsequent to the US GIRM adaptation RE: “norm of standing,” that those who choose to receive kneeling are free to do so and are not to be accused of disobedience.

Never said otherwise.
Please see post #5

 

[Zacdecat]

Please don’t be so glib about parking lot issues. Jesus was a practical man. Do you remember when he preached to the crowd of 5000, He made sure that the people had something to eat. There are lots of other examples of Jesus making sure that the physical needs of humans were met. He didn’t just dismiss the physical world.

In many parishes, there is no option for street parking due to physical constraints or even due to city ordinances designed to keep residential areas free of traffic congestion. And for the elderly or those with many tiny children or for the disabled, street parking isn’t an option at all.

Our parish has five Masses on Sunday morning (two more on Saturday evening, and one on Sunday evening), and around 7000 people attend.

Our church campus is on one of the busiest intersections in the city, and it is wild trying to maneuver into the church parking lot and then maneuver out again. What complicates things is that there is a retirement home and nursing home on the campus (affiliated with the diocese), and parishioners are not supposed to drive through this area to take a “shortcut”.

There are also two shopping malls on the other street corners, and thus a lot of traffic from these places.

And on the fourth street corner, there is another huge church!

It really is imperative that the Masses be finished within 60 minutes, give or take five minutes, so that people can get into and out of the church safely.

I think people make too big a deal out of this issue of kneeling for Holy Communion, and try to make it into a problem when it really isn’t a problem at all.

We have several families that kneel to receive Holy Communion. They wait until last, and then there is no problem at all, and I’m guessing that waiting until last is good for helping them to develop the virtue of humility. The priests, and many of the parishioners, know these families, so there is no surprise when they kneel. (Usually these families do not receive from EMHCs). They usually attend the same Mass time from week to week, so we’re all used to them. It’s not a problem, really.

As for anyone who is new who kneels, it generally isn’t a problem at all. In our parish, the priests have asked that we make some kind of gesture of reverence, usually a small bow, before receiving the Host. So the procession is not speedy, and since everyone stops to make that bow, we’re expecting a slight delay and so no one collides when someone kneels.

I think that people who kneel have gotten used to a slight turning around and somehow signaling to the person behind them, that they intend to kneel for Communion. I’ve seen it–it’s very subtle, but it’s enough of a warning so that the person behind the kneeling person doesn’t trip. If I were a kneeler, I would verbally tell the person behind me in advance, just to make sure that the person didn’t trip over me.

**What I wonder is, how do the kneeling people feel when they find that they are no longer able to kneel on a floor? I’ve seen some parishes in which the elderly and disabled who wish to receive kneeling will sit in the very front row, and then the priest will come to them to distribute Holy Communion. I like this, and wish that it were done in our parish.

I am one who, due to osteoarthritis of the knees, cannot kneel without something to hold onto (front of a pew). I could never kneel on a floor without assistance, and it would be very hard, if not impossible, for me to stand up again and start walking. At work, if I drop something and it rolls under a desk, I have to ask someone to bend down and get it for me (or I can use some kind of tool to fish it out). On damp days, it’s even worse. I’m only 54, and started having problems with this back in my late 30s. I am very grateful that we aren’t required to kneel!**Is it hard for kneelers to accept it when they can no longer kneel, and have to receive the Holy Communion standing like all the rest of the Catholics? I should think it would be heartbreaking.

This is of course a problem …the ill and physically constrained have alternatives…they do stand at the communion rail or a helper brings them up to the rail in their w’chair. This is usually organised in advance so the priest and communicant are not confused. I find kneeling very difficult even the genuflection before entering the church…I am able to kneel a little with a prop. I could not kneel down without a support and would never be able to regain my feet. Kneeling in pew is ok, the use of the pew is great…once down I am fine…some days it is a real effort to get up. Again I try to utilise my small store of commonsense.

 

[Cat]

I have to say that when the altar rail was there I never noticed anyone unable to kneel – unless they were in a wheelchair.

One possibility is that in the U.S., the obesity rate has increased alarmingly in the last 30years, along with an increase in obesity-related problems, including osteoarthritis, diabetes (circulation impairment), and other mobility problems. The weight of the average woman in the U.S. has gone from 128 pounds in the 1970s to 157 pounds today. I can’t remember the numbers for men, but it’s something like 167 pounds to 190 pounds, or something like that.

Of course this means that it will be harder for a large number of people to kneel than it was back when kneeling was the norm. As a society, we’re heavier and less mobile than we were back then.

People have correlated CITH and standing to receive Communion with lots of other problems. Maybe we should theorize that CITH and standing are the cause for obesity in the U.S.! It’s really not so far-fetched. I have a theory that many obese people are actually hungry for Jesus in the Eucharist, but when they can’t or won’t find Him in the Catholic Church, they substitute food instead. I think this is true for me, although it’s just part of the reason why I am fat. Interestingly, I started receiving Jesus on my tongue about two years ago, and in those two years, I’ve lost 75 pounds (and I’m still working on losing about 25 more pounds–I wish I could go to daily Mass!). Coincidence?! Probably. But I do believe that we need to satisfy hunger with the Lord instead of with Big Mac.

 

[laszlo]

I’ve never noticed a 4 yard space necessity, and I kneel weekly to receive Holy Communion at a Novus Ordo parish. That doesn’t seem to make sense. Where are these numbers coming from?

I still think that no one has sufficiently answered the question, so I will re-phrase: What are the reasons the Bishops have given for the “standing to receive” norm? Either way, there is no obligation to take this norm: the USCCB is an advisory council.

Since 3 years I attend a church where almost everybody receives kneeling at the bars of the altar. People line up parallel with the bars at the front of the first pew, The one who received the Holy communion leaves the bars, and one from the line steps into his /her place. If the line is shorter than six men (somethimes three priests distributes the communion)

The communion process is the tradition. Only during the Absolutism (18th century) became the communion extremely rare (once a year) and consequently receiving on pedestal. Even in our church it is three steps up. The other reason is the sound mind: the Mass has to be finisihed within 70 minutes.

I personally like to receive kneeling and on tongue, also I never receive under the species of vine; but the receive in standing and into hand is organic consequence of the large number of communicants under both species.

The traditionalist think otherwise because their churches are small and the number of people receiving is small also. They do not see the reality of the huge crowd.

 

[Phemie]

Since 3 years I attend a church where almost everybody receives kneeling at the bars of the altar. People line up parallel with the bars at the front of the first pew, The one who received the Holy communion leaves the bars, and one from the line steps into his /her place. If the line is shorter than six men (somethimes three priests distributes the communion)

The communion process is the tradition. Only during the Absolutism (18th century) became the communion extremely rare (once a year) and consequently receiving on pedestal. Even in our church it is three steps up. The other reason is the sound mind: the Mass has to be finisihed within 70 minutes.

I personally like to receive kneeling and on tongue, also I never receive under the species of vine; but the receive in standing and into hand is organic consequence of the large number of communicants under both species.

The traditionalist think otherwise because their churches are small and the number of people receiving is small also. They do not see the reality of the huge crowd.

I grew up in a large parish when the norm was kneeling and on the tongue. Communion was given kneeling at the rail by ONE priest (rural parishes didn’t have two priests or deacons) and it didn’t take very long. Mass was rarely more than an hour long. At the rail you could have 40 people kneeling in a row and the priest would just walk back and forth giving each Communion.

 

[Brendan]

It is me. There was no force.

The process and to receive standing is the only possible resolution if

• the Church is full
• almost everyone receives communion
• and receives under both species.

Not true, in our parish, it’s is quite full ( 900+ families), almost everyone recieves communion and we do so under both species.

We also recieve kneeling at the communion rail.

Our pastor has two prei deiu set up that altar boys bring forward. He offers communion 2 aside and it is offered intincted (by the priest)

It actually goes a lot faster than the neighboring parish with a platton of EMHC’s. There, they use EMHC’s holding chalice and the line really backs up for the species of wine.

 

[Brendan]

To illistrate, here is a picture of my daughter recieving her First Holy Communion

forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10219&d=1302632187

FYI, this is the Oridinary Form

 

[mkamoski1]

All -

FYI, there is a related and similar thread here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=545095

…which explores some of the same dimensions of the matter of kneeling while receiving.

Also, here are some good interesting links and a nice quote from the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, may God bless him always.

Kneeling The Norm At Papal Liturgies

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0803381.htm

Kneeling and genuflection, Catholic Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm

KNEELING AND FAITH IN THE EUCHARIST

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/KNEELING.TXT

Standing or Kneeling During the Consecration? Some Parish Bulletins Go Astray

by Joseph Fessio, S.J.

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STANKNEL.TXT

Letter on “American Adaptations”
Congregation for Divine Worship’s observations, suggestions to US Bishops on proposed adaptations of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani

“… This Dicastery agrees in principle to the insertion into n. 160 of a statement, as apparently desired by the Bishops, that Holy Communion in the United States of America is normally received standing. At the same time, the tenor of not a few letters received from the faithful in various Dioceses of that country leads the Congregation, even after a very careful consideration of such data, to urge the Conference to introduce a clause that would protect those faithful who will inevitably be led by their own sensibilities to kneel from imprudent action by priests, deacons or lay ministers in particular, or from being refused Holy Communion for such a reason as happens on occasion. …”

adoremus.org/1201-0102AmAdaptations.html

Pope Benedict XVI: Kneeling Before the Most Blessed Sacrament

“Adoring the God of Jesus Christ, who out of love made himself bread broken, is the most effective and radical remedy against the idolatry of the past and of the present. Kneeling before the Eucharist is a profession of freedom: those who bow to Jesus cannot and must not prostrate themselves before any earthly authority, however powerful. We Christians kneel only before God or before the Most Blessed Sacrament because we know and believe that the one true God is present in it, the God who created the world and so loved it that he gave his Only Begotten Son (cf. Jn 3: 16). We prostrate ourselves before a God who first bent over man like the Good Samaritan to assist him and restore his life, and who knelt before us to wash our dirty feet. Adoring the Body of Christ, means believing that there, in that piece of Bread, Christ is really there, and gives true sense to life, to the immense universe as to the smallest creature, to the whole of human history as to the most brief existence. Adoration is prayer that prolongs the celebration and Eucharistic communion and in which the soul continues to be nourished: it is nourished with love, truth, peace; it is nourished with hope, because the One before whom we prostrate ourselves does not judge us, does not crush us but liberates and transforms us.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI, Corpus Christi Homily, May 22, 2008 ~

And also, there is a good compendium of information here on kneeling…

tldm.org/News5/kneeling.htm

…so, I hope this helps…

I suggest that one who is contemplating the “correctness” of kneeling before God ought to ask himself/herself the following question-- does it not seem a bit strange that any follower of Jesus Christ would say something like the following.

Let us consider these simple hypothentical statements…

**
Statement 1: What if they said “Do not kneel before God”?

Statement 2: What if they said “We prefer that you do not kneel before God”?

Statement 3: What if they said “We suggest that you do not kneel before God”?

Statement 4: What if they said “We suggest that it is normal that you do not kneel before God”?

Statement 5: What if they said “We suggest that it is inconvenient to kneel before God”?
**

Each must decide for himself/herself but, at least for me, any of those statements would be odd to me, to say the least.

What do you think of these hypothetical statements?

God bless you.

“That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth”.

Phillipains 2:10. Douay-Rheims Bible.

Slave To The Sacred Heart Of Jesus, I am yours…

• Mark Kamoski

 

[mkamoski1]

Calling Colin Donovan or Jimmy Akin or even Jim Blackburn or Michelle Arnold or similar-- please chime in!!!



Thank you.

• Mark Kamoski

 

[jantoniello]

Re: the bolded part.
I do not believe that any reasons need to be given. The Episcopal Confrences (what the USCCB is in the US) were instructed by the Vatican to make a choice-*** meaning one or the other. ***The USCCB made it’s decision,as a Catholic in the US, I abide by it.
Regarding the USCCB just being an advisory council, I do not believe that is entirely correct. Each Episcopal Conference is basically in charge of interpreting the rules of the Church for it’s particular area.

On a side note- I learned in my Sacramental Theology class that what most people believe about the “management structure” of the Chruch is incorrect. Yes, the Pope is the head of the Church, but, by delegating Cardinals & Bishops, the Pope has given them pretty wide latitude in interpreting things for their particular areas. In other words, the Pope does not “micro-manage”.

I understand the Theology of the Bishops: that isn’t what we are referring to here. If the Bishops say the reasons for the norm should be instructed, then the reasons for the norm should be instructed. The problem is there seem to be no reasons for this norm. They are advisory in matters liturgical. I am not obligated to stand at Holy Communion, even though it is the “norm” to do so. (Just an aside: where do/did you go to school?)

I guess no one can adequately answer the question I posed.

 

[MichaelFuller]

To receive communion kneeling needs minimum 4 yard space across, (six people in row) and even so the average time to serve one communicant is at least 20% more (the time walking back) than the receiving standing. To receive under both species doubles the time and space requirement, and also to receive the Holy blood kneeling creates dangerous risk of spill.

To receive kneeling can be norm only if only the Body of Chirst is received , and the Church is wide; or only a few people is going to communion. Do not forget that the Mass had to be finished in 70 minutes otherwise there will be a mess in the parking lot.

The resolution is to provide separate Masses for those who wish to receive kneeling, and on those Masses provide only communion under the species of bread. If the TLM Mass is available in a 20 mile radius, that seems o be sufficient resolution.

If only the Body of Christ is received. You sure get scientific in your justification of this or that much space, but are ignorant to the fact that receiving Holy Communion under both species is a Protestant notion and that Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity are present all in the Blessed Host? Are you even Catholic?

 

[thomas_jd]

Peace to all.

I was reading the General Instruction of the Roman Missal earlier for the first time in ages and noticed something I have never noticed before.

160: "The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm." source]

The last line there is what threw me through a loop. What are the reasons for this norm?

note: I am not trying to delve into the discussion of which is more proper or more universally normal. I am merely asking why the GIRM has this last line in there.

The newest GIRM has that line removed. You posted from an previous issue.
“proper catechesis” could mean an explaination regarding the reasoning the U.S. stands
and is granted an indult. I would love to hear that one!

Last Sunday at Communion time a visiting priest went directly to the bottom of the steps and told me , I was serving, to attend to those approaching for Communion. I usually go to one side of the altar instead of the bottom steps holding the paten. I have served a few times before when he was the celebrant.
That direction encouraged people to receive standing. Normally people receive at the “altar rail”.
Some priest prefer to give Communion to those standing and they act
accordingly.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Note to future posters here:

This thread is seven months old. Please read the dates on posts!

 

[Megan7]

Note to future posters here:

This thread is seven months old. Please read the dates on posts!

But, it still has some great posts, links that we can benefit from I will spend some time

reading all of these posts, great info.

God Bless,

PAX

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes, this is an old thread and the line has been changed in the new edition of the GIRM. It now reads:

The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling (Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum, March 25, 2004, no. 91).

And the citation from Redemptionis Sacramentum shows us why:

[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.[177] Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

So it’s basically a non-issue now.