A question on Muslim unity?

[Kouyate42]

I read in my Qur’an that the Islamic belief is that the body of Islamic believers make up something termed the ‘ummah (translated in my dictionary as nation). Things like praying 5 times a day in the direction of Qibla’ (facing the Ka’aba) is a symbol of the unity of Muslims all over the world, surpassing race, culture, language, level of wealth or gender.

But how can this belief be justified when Islam seems to be heavily fragmented across cultural and even tribal lines, as well as there being wildly conflicting schools of scholarly thought concerning basic issues of Muslim belief?

 

[Peace_of_cake]

I read in my Qur’an that the Islamic belief is that the body of Islamic believers make up something termed the ‘ummah (translated in my dictionary as nation). Things like praying 5 times a day in the direction of Qibla’ (facing the Ka’aba) is a symbol of the unity of Muslims all over the world, surpassing race, culture, language, level of wealth or gender.

But how can this belief be justified when Islam seems to be heavily fragmented across cultural and even tribal lines, as well as there being wildly conflicting schools of scholarly thought concerning basic issues of Muslim belief?

If we’re talking about Sunni Islam (accounting for around 85%) then yes the majority have authority. Also tradition plays an important role, so that should someone say something then there is continuity with the past.
Anyway, in terms of debate within Islam then this mainly falls into the branches of jurisprudence and not theology. It is a well known achievement of the Muslims that they have such unity on their beliefs. It certainly becomes apparent when compared with Christianity; looking at our closest fellow Christians ie Orthodox we have the major theological issues of Filioque, this is a vast difference compared with say Sunni Shia which is more about authority (like the papal infallibility issue).
There is difference in jurisprudence, but it’s a little unfair to say they are divided since there is a ranking ie the is a recognised relied upon position. Most of the difference is really just academic debate… Just try reading a few medical journals!!!
If your knew to it then it can be confusing, but that’s really due to it being new and if you prolong your studies a little more you’ll see that unity amongst the Muslims is quite remarkable. Any decent academic book would state the same.
As a caveat it is worth noting that Islam is going through a reformation at the moment so just as in Europe during the 16th century we are see conflict and disunity never before witnessed.
Hope that helps

 

[mark_a]

I read in my Qur’an that the Islamic belief is that the body of Islamic believers make up something termed the ‘ummah (translated in my dictionary as nation). Things like praying 5 times a day in the direction of Qibla’ (facing the Ka’aba) is a symbol of the unity of Muslims all over the world, surpassing race, culture, language, level of wealth or gender.

But how can this belief be justified when Islam seems to be heavily fragmented across cultural and even tribal lines, as well as there being wildly conflicting schools of scholarly thought concerning basic issues of Muslim belief?

Islam, with their lack of a central authority, suffers from the same disunity as Protestantism.

 

[meltzerboy]

I read in my Qur’an that the Islamic belief is that the body of Islamic believers make up something termed the ‘ummah (translated in my dictionary as nation). Things like praying 5 times a day in the direction of Qibla’ (facing the Ka’aba) is a symbol of the unity of Muslims all over the world, surpassing race, culture, language, level of wealth or gender.

But how can this belief be justified when Islam seems to be heavily fragmented across cultural and even tribal lines, as well as there being wildly conflicting schools of scholarly thought concerning basic issues of Muslim belief?

I have little knowledge of Islam although not total ignorance. However, I would think in this respect Islam is similar to Judaism, in that there are certain principles of faith and practice common to all varieties regardless of individual customs and branches.

 

[antunesaa]

If we’re talking about Sunni Islam (accounting for around 85%) then yes the majority have authority. Also tradition plays an important role, so that should someone say something then there is continuity with the past.
Anyway, in terms of debate within Islam then this mainly falls into the branches of jurisprudence and not theology. It is a well known achievement of the Muslims that they have such unity on their beliefs. It certainly becomes apparent when compared with Christianity; looking at our closest fellow Christians ie Orthodox we have the major theological issues of Filioque, this is a vast difference compared with say Sunni Shia which is more about authority (like the papal infallibility issue).
There is difference in jurisprudence, but it’s a little unfair to say they are divided since there is a ranking ie the is a recognised relied upon position. Most of the difference is really just academic debate… Just try reading a few medical journals!!!
If your knew to it then it can be confusing, but that’s really due to it being new and if you prolong your studies a little more you’ll see that unity amongst the Muslims is quite remarkable. Any decent academic book would state the same.
As a caveat it is worth noting that Islam is going through a reformation at the moment so just as in Europe during the 16th century we are see conflict and disunity never before witnessed.
Hope that helps

Regarding unity of Muslims, it certainly helps that theirs is an astonishingly depurated creed. No questions of Trinity; the Filioque; the Dogmas; the Eucharist and Transubstantiation; etc. Muslims’ faith has 5 simple pillars. In fact, dissension only shows up in legal disputes, when they have to resort to the Holy Quran and Tradition. Then they seem more like Christians in terms of disunion…

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

They had a central authority (the Caliph) until the Caliphate was abolished by the Turkish government in the 1920s as part of its secularizing reforms.

However, I believe the Shia branch still does have a centralized hierarchy of clerics.

 

[LUV4ALL]

Islam was prophecised to degrade and become furthest from its roots. The prophet also prophecised that one sect of the 73 sects of Islam will return to the true Islam and live life like the earliest Muslims. There is one such sect that lives life peacefully and follows a clear structure. One sermon is broadcasted throughout the world from its headquarters by their one leader every friday. This is the most organized Islam has ever been and the sermon is broadcasted through satellite and also the internet. This is the sect of Islam, the same sect that is persecuted and cast by the rest of the Islamic Ummah as hearsay. There is no ambiguity in the clerical structure and after the passing away of one leader follows a unique system that allows easy election of a new leader. It is pretty cool that out of the vast secretarial differences in Islam there is one such sect that does not have trouble in determining the days of Eid celebrations and there is no confusion in that process. I speak from personal experience as I have attended numerous gatherings across the world growing up and taken part in such grandiose events where upwards of 25,000 people are in attendance. I am talking about the annual events of Jalsa Salana where people gather from all around the world to discuss Islam and other matters where dignitaries from Kings to Members of Parliament are in attendance and pay tribute. I feel lucky to be a member of this group of Islam.

 

[Calgar]

Then they seem more like Christians in terms of disunion…

Except for the whole killing each other by the truckloads every other day.

 

[LUV4ALL]

I assure you no muslim from the Ahmadi sect is killing anyone. Those people that are killing each other have no right to call themselves Muslims. No where in Islam is there mention of killing people. I find your statement full of bias and devoid of common sense.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Islam, with their lack of a central authority, suffers from the same disunity as Protestantism.

It’s not like Protestantism. Having a central authority isn’t the only way to run a religion. Islam is preserved ‘in the hearts of the upright’ i.e. The scholars of Islam - the ulama. So to have any say one needs to be recognised as a scholar by the scholars, so take bin Laden; he had no authority in Islam because he wasn’t a recognised scholar, in fact he was labelled a fasiq (wrong doer or heretic) by the ulama and by some a kafir (disbelieved). Probably more like Orthodox?

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Except for the whole killing each other by the truckloads every other day.

It’s pig headed ignorance to make simplistic comments like this. Unstable states obviously cause conflict, ask the people of New Orleans! Read history and you’ll find that we have a lot more killing of fellow ‘believers.’ also in places like India it doesn’t help that the Brits made a sect to destroy Islam from within… It’s not going to make peace is it!

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Regarding unity of Muslims, it certainly helps that theirs is an astonishingly depurated creed. No questions of Trinity; the Filioque; the Dogmas; the Eucharist and Transubstantiation; etc. Muslims’ faith has 5 simple pillars. In fact, dissension only shows up in legal disputes, when they have to resort to the Holy Quran and Tradition. Then they seem more like Christians in terms of disunion…

Interesting use of depurated for a Catholic
The five pillars you speak of are practice not creed, that is to believe in God, Angels, Books, Messengers and destiny (actually there are five, is that what you meant?). Given what you’ve written makes Islam seem a bit simplistic (do you mean Salafism) when there is much sophisticated kalam (theology) and interestingly it’s really quite unique in it’s format, it didn’t go down the Greek road. Generally Muslims have focused their scholarly efforts into law and mysticism which maybe explains why there seems an apparent absence.

 

[LUV4ALL]

also in places like India it doesn’t help that the Brits made a sect to destroy Islam from within… It’s not going to make peace is it!

You make great points but make a complete 180 degree turn at this statement. I love the casual attempt to disqualify the Ahmadi sect. Your statement is complete hearsay and has no validity whatsoever. The British did not care that much to fabriacte a sect of Islam with a complex structure and thousands of followers some who are highly educated simply to “destroy” India. That kind of thinking and belief goes along the lines of ignorance.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

You make great points but make a complete 180 degree turn at this statement. I love the casual attempt to disqualify the Ahmadi sect. Your statement is complete hearsay and has no validity whatsoever. The British did not care that much to fabriacte a sect of Islam with a complex structure and thousands of followers some who are highly educated simply to “destroy” India. That kind of thinking and belief goes along the lines of ignorance.

Sorry I know it’s your religion, but on a thread on Muslim unity it is rather amusing that you post; all Muslims unanimously agree you are not Sorry, but I can’t understand why someone would buy into the Ahamdiyyah??? It’s right up there with Mormonism and JW’s.
Anyway since I’m Catholic I believe your all in error so it’s really of no consequence to me… It’s just I don’t think these modern movements are really all that ‘religious’ using classical definitions. Heresay? Ok… Just don’t study Islam at a University
Sorry I should be more understanding, but it just seems so blatant!

 

[LUV4ALL]

No need to apolgize, love your forum handle btw LOL. There is nothign to buy about my faith because there is nothing I am necessarily selling. My beliefs are universal. Our sect is the only sect of Islam that believes the survival of Jesus on the cross and his escape from israel and his migration eastwards. Ahmadis do not care what the opinion of other Ulema is, it is God we will have to answer to not some sheikh in a rugged beard. Please tell me what made you believe that Ahmadis are not for real just because the majority of Muslims believe it so? Can u not entertain the fact that maybe your beliefs are flawed and that maybe God did save Jesus naturally and allowed him to live the rest of his life doing what he loved best?

Modern movements using classical definitions?? that statement does not make any sense. I really dont care if you are understanding or not. I would just like for you to understand what Im saying from outside of the box of Christianity. My minority belief on Jesus’ survival and escape and migrations eastwards renders the Christian faith a dud but not its values and its teachings for Islam shares them and adds to them.

If you have any idea what “ahmadiyya” is please tell me where you differ or what you find hard to believe…

 

[Sam_777]

Our sect is the only sect of Islam that believes the survival of Jesus on the cross and his escape from israel and his migration eastwards.

That 19th century Ahmadiyya heresy is even worst than Sunni Islam heresy!
At least according to Sunni Islam Jesus was not crucified but raised to heaven, much better than emigrating to India and dying like a normal person over there!!!

 

[Peace_of_cake]

http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif
That 19th century Ahmadiyya heresy is even worst than Sunni Islam heresy!
At least according to Sunni Islam Jesus was not crucified but raised to heaven, much better than emigrating to India and dying like a normal person over there!!!

It’s very rare I can say this, but I agree with Sam! Even wacko Salafism isn’t this crazy! Why is it all these modern heresies have to be about Jesus showing up in some nowhere place? Leave him alone!
Seriously Luv4all (trite slogan of your sect) aren’t you concerned that your religion never existed before the 19th C, that it happened to start in British ruled India where one if it’s tenants was let the British rule (how convenient) and that no Muslim has ever had those beliefs made prophecies of India having any significance in a distinctly Arab religion, and that sectarianism that your so happy to admit is distinctly prohibited in the Quran; breaking from the group, the group who unanimously make takfir of your sect. Why not with your perrenialist world view just become a Mormon for that will be at least understandable to a Western mind than some bizarre Indian tribe! Sorry man, but it’s just so blatantly absurd that I just can’t help but slam it.
I appreciate you’ll take it seriously and you have every freedom in our modern World, but don’t call it Islam and definitely don’t come on a Catholic forum and have a thinly veiled agenda of prosthletysing as your sect has! I know to some this may come across as a bit harsh, but it’s like becoming Mormon after having heard the South Park song about Jay Smith! Total nonsense with bells on. Plus it’s quite dangerous with it’s agenda. Heresy in whatever religion is a spiritual sickness, disbelief in truth is mere misguidance. Whilst the latter may be forgiven the former should be fought at every opportunity because it aims to destroy deceptively just like the devil.
Also why can’t you ‘Muslims’ not understand that rejection of the resurrection strikes at the heart of all Christian beliefs!?!

 

[jakasaki]

It’s very rare I can say this, but I agree with Sam! Even wacko Salafism isn’t this crazy! Why is it all these modern heresies have to be about Jesus showing up in some nowhere place? Leave him alone!
Seriously Luv4all (trite slogan of your sect) aren’t you concerned that your religion never existed before the 19th C, that it happened to start in British ruled India where one if it’s tenants was let the British rule (how convenient) and that no Muslim has ever had those beliefs made prophecies of India having any significance in a distinctly Arab religion, and that sectarianism that your so happy to admit is distinctly prohibited in the Quran; breaking from the group, the group who unanimously make takfir of your sect. Why not with your perrenialist world view just become a Mormon for that will be at least understandable to a Western mind than some bizarre Indian tribe! Sorry man, but it’s just so blatantly absurd that I just can’t help but slam it.
I appreciate you’ll take it seriously and you have every freedom in our modern World, but don’t call it Islam and definitely don’t come on a Catholic forum and have a thinly veiled agenda of prosthletysing as your sect has! I know to some this may come across as a bit harsh, but it’s like becoming Mormon after having heard the South Park song about Jay Smith! Total nonsense with bells on. Plus it’s quite dangerous with it’s agenda. Heresy in whatever religion is a spiritual sickness, disbelief in truth is mere misguidance. Whilst the latter may be forgiven the former should be fought at every opportunity because it aims to destroy deceptively just like the devil.
Also why can’t you ‘Muslims’ not understand that rejection of the resurrection strikes at the heart of all Christian beliefs!?!

YUP - that’s their motto:

Love for all - hatred for none…

 

[jakasaki]

Our sect is the only sect of Islam that believes the survival of Jesus on the cross and his escape from israel and his migration eastwards.

… snip…

maybe God did save Jesus naturally and allowed him to live the rest of his life doing what he loved best?

…

Everything you posted within the above quote box is going against your koran.

4:156-159

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’

But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise.

And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

And then there is…

3:55

Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection:

Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

 

[LUV4ALL]

I have no agenda, I am simply discussing my beliefs which may have a great deal of importance to christians. Its pretty ignorant and suspicious taht you would claim such a thing.

I wonder how you have come to a conclusioin as denouncing ahmadis as heretics.

Can you rpovide me with specific examples where the theory of Jesus eastwards is imposible. On a purely logical level it seems highly comprehensible that a man had travelled eastwards and died in India as opposed to flying into heaven with his physical body and hanging out there till GOd knows when LOL. What does science think about that?